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Megami Tensei General Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Lukewoesal007
- Start date
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This is extremely vague, unless you have more context.This is a nice information
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I got this screenshot on telegram, so i can't really tell you the exact context or whatsoever. I know it's from the last chapter of the game, though.
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Do you know the name of the chapter, at least? There's just not a lot that this screenshot gives us inherently.
Yes
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So the one who would get affected the most in that hypothetical would be primal satan and Nahobino.
I forgot Stephen literally graced the existence of the great reason. So no change would allow matter lucy to be on the same level.
It’s wild to think the hierarchy extends so much higher than Yhvh, the most prominent and involved god in the verse.
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I tried searching online, but I couldn't find anything. I also asked on Telegram, but the best result I got is that the statement comes from the latest chapter that was released a few days ago
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Tbf that was the theoretical version. As far as we know, the Great Will is still the same as Nocturne and IV A.
That aside, it's weird to think he's below so much in the current cosmology. Nyx, Philemon/Nyar for example.
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He is a demon after all, a very powerful demon, but nonetheless not different from the other gods
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His Covenant lets him remain at the top tho, but even that can be undone. I forget just how high in the hierarchy that makes him.
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Yeah as the great will of the universe YHVH is virtually untouchable. There are only few entities that scale above One true God YHVH iirc.
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Just wanted to say that I'm very glad the first thread of the revisions (at least, the update of the 1-A justifications) has been published. I just got into Tsumi no Batsu a few days ago so it was coincidental to see arguments taken from that manga right as I was reading it x)
I'm glad the thread also addressed supposed anti-feats. I assume that the upcoming threads are going to do the same
I'm glad the thread also addressed supposed anti-feats. I assume that the upcoming threads are going to do the same
Abu2411
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I think I know you from somewhere
PhilLemon02
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A spatial governing phenomenon (or emergent non-physical/divine law) that ensures that existential stagnation doesn't occur for too long. It's essentially entropy but for ideologies in the SMTV multiverse. It serves the purpose that YHVH's system in SMTIV/IVA served but the difference is there's the implication that it would be impossible to actually nullify the Mandala System without setting everything back to zero because it will ensure there will always eventually be a portal to Da'at and demons will come through to covet power, magatsuhi and knowledge. At least that's what I was able to gather from that singular yap session Lucifer gives to you at the end of the game. Unless I missed something.
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does anyone have a link to the scans that imply that inner universe = Monado Mandala (or inner universe = collective unconscious)? I've been looking for pictures or footage but I haven't been able to find it
(this is regardless to whether or not the interpretation is correct, I just want to see the statement itself)
(this is regardless to whether or not the interpretation is correct, I just want to see the statement itself)
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So I saw High 1-A+ / 0 on the thread recently and I have absolutely no idea if you're joking or not because I heard there will be some massive upgrades in bound
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No idea what you mean, genuinely.
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No, there's really no basis. I don't even know of an actual Greek or Roman conception of "Chaos" which even remotely resembles The Great Reason.
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Understandable. Thank you
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Has anyone tried to debunk Maruki yet?
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Do it yourself.
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Already did on another post online. I'm going to expand upon it later.
Firstly we have already seen what happens when the full potential of humanity faces Nyx(Makoto and the other protags reached this perfect state.), they die. Secondly Personas don't work on Nyx. Thirdly you are wrong Adam Kadmon isn't humanity's full potential. Let's go over what Humanity's full potential actually is.
Well to unlock humanity full potential, you must go through the process of individuation and become an archetype of self.
It is a perfect state with no contradictions.
Maruki hasn't reached enlightenment, he hasn't understood the meaning behind every human and soul, that even his own Persona is a part of himself, unable to think himself worthy of its power, because that it's what Adam Kadmon is - His Persona empowered by everyone, just like Makoto, Kotone, Yu and Joker. But where they accepted, even if momentarily, that power and truth, Maruki didn't. He escaped from it.
After all...
"I must have always been... afraid... afraid you and I wouldn't wish for the same reality..."
At the end, the doctor isn't a deva, nor a buddha, and even less a savior, and he isn't show as anything of that sort. He's a simple man, with his heart filled with contradictions and desiring to escape the true reality, but that wishes to do good with the power he obtained.. Just like everyone else, he has still a lot to understand and realize because, more than anything, he's a flawed human.
Credit to Melliane for a lot of it.
Firstly we have already seen what happens when the full potential of humanity faces Nyx(Makoto and the other protags reached this perfect state.), they die. Secondly Personas don't work on Nyx. Thirdly you are wrong Adam Kadmon isn't humanity's full potential. Let's go over what Humanity's full potential actually is.
Well to unlock humanity full potential, you must go through the process of individuation and become an archetype of self.
It is a perfect state with no contradictions.
and
And yet...
- “So… This is it… Rumi… I’m sorry… I couldn’t…”
- “If it’s for everyone’s happiness, I don’t care what happens to me! Don’t resist… Accept it. With my power- No… With mine and Adam Kadmon’s together, our reality is nigh!”
- “I’m sorry. I said I didn’t care what’d happen to me… But I guess… I wasn’t committed to my words…”
- “I gave up everything else… I dedicated all that I have to this… But I still… Why?”
- “It’s true that I turned my back on the original reality… But where’s the harm in that!? When it grows too much, too painful… Every person deserves to escape that!”
- “I’ve been holding this all in for so long, just hiding it from myself… So, please… Help me kill every last one of my regrets"
Maruki hasn't reached enlightenment, he hasn't understood the meaning behind every human and soul, that even his own Persona is a part of himself, unable to think himself worthy of its power, because that it's what Adam Kadmon is - His Persona empowered by everyone, just like Makoto, Kotone, Yu and Joker. But where they accepted, even if momentarily, that power and truth, Maruki didn't. He escaped from it.
After all...
"I must have always been... afraid... afraid you and I wouldn't wish for the same reality..."
At the end, the doctor isn't a deva, nor a buddha, and even less a savior, and he isn't show as anything of that sort. He's a simple man, with his heart filled with contradictions and desiring to escape the true reality, but that wishes to do good with the power he obtained.. Just like everyone else, he has still a lot to understand and realize because, more than anything, he's a flawed human.
Credit to Melliane for a lot of it.
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Who is Mellaine? Are they from Reddit?
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Biggest problem I have with people saying Maruki needing to attain enlightenment to summon Adam Kadmon is that simply is not how personas operate. People use the requisite of individualization to debunk Adam Kadmon off the premise that Maruki himself hadn’t obtained it.
That’s like saying in order to summon a death god (persona) you have to die, it’s simply not necessary to attain a persona’s state of being to summon it. If anything, it makes sense why Maruki would have to surrender himself to his persona to unleash its full potential. It’s because Maruki didn’t reach enlightenment that he couldn’t use A”K’s full power, which is rectified by fusing with him.
Tl;dr Maruki doesn’t need to reach enlightenment to summon A”K because that’s something inherent to the persona.
That’s like saying in order to summon a death god (persona) you have to die, it’s simply not necessary to attain a persona’s state of being to summon it. If anything, it makes sense why Maruki would have to surrender himself to his persona to unleash its full potential. It’s because Maruki didn’t reach enlightenment that he couldn’t use A”K’s full power, which is rectified by fusing with him.
Tl;dr Maruki doesn’t need to reach enlightenment to summon A”K because that’s something inherent to the persona.
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yeah, i was going to bring up "didn't maruki get absorbed by adam kadmon?" because i remember that we're supposed to be fighting full-powered adam kadmon himself and not just maruki with adam kadmon as his persona by the end of the game, so whether or not maruki had reached enlightenment was ultimately irrelevant
though if you just want to debunk maruki, iirc maruki with adam kadmon scales above maruki with azathoth, who scales above yaldabaoth, so he probably shouldn't get out of 1-a
though if you just want to debunk maruki, iirc maruki with adam kadmon scales above maruki with azathoth, who scales above yaldabaoth, so he probably shouldn't get out of 1-a
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Exactly, personas usually disappear after their users defeat. However A”k was just like….
Makes sense that he wouldn’t be fazed, he’s already enlightened and transcendent. Also Joker did NOT “metaphorically” gain the universe arcana. It just didn’t make much of a difference because joker was already OP. He took the damn role of administration from Yaldabaoth and even gave it away. (Albeit subconsciously)
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Neither Joker nor yu obtained the universe arcana (world arcana ≠ universe arcana), only Makoto got that arcana.
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Your response overlooks the main argument of the post and completely misses the point. Many people tend to power scale Maruki without fully considering his character or looking at the fight
Let's look at what actually happened in the fight.
He lost... Not only did he lose to a human, he lost to people who have not even found the Answer life. That's is quite literally step number one of achieving the universe arcana and obtaining the Potential of humanity.
Not to mention he gave it his all. Maruki realistically isn't any stronger than Yaldy, especially not Nyar and even more so Nyx.
No this is quite literally something entirely different and I'm not even implying that. I'm saying to achieve enlightenment you must go through the process of individuation and become an archetype of self, there are no short cuts through Personas. We have seen personas who should realistically be an archetype of the self, who aren't.
And lets play into your game, shall we? If Personas are your true self, then why didn't Maruki obtain enlightenment after fusing with A.K? Well it's simple, he didn't actually become enlightened nor did fusing with A.K make him an enlightened figure. His nature as an Archetype who exhibits a mythology makes him speak metaphorically, not factually.
Expect that didn't make Joker the world nor universe arcana, It made him the fool. As for why I say he obtained it metaphorically, It's because he never once used the world nor did he ever use in any future installments (Which Yu has done).
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Dunno about everything else, but the Yaldy part is outright wrong. Maruki is stated to be beyond anything the Thieves have faced up to that point, and that was just with Azathoth.
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I know Maruki is stronger, but to say much stronger or second to only the Axiom is just wrong.
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His character is irrelevant to him summoning A”K
I mean, ok? Him losing isn’t an anti feat against him but a feat of the PT. By your logic Philemon and Nyarlathotep shouldn’t have lost because they are the creators of human thoughts and thus “encompass” any feat of human thoughts. How did that go? It’s for damn sure never stated you needed enlightenment to summon A”K.
That’s just wholly false. A”K should be at the very least multiplicatively stronger than universe arcana Makoto. Considering the former is “all human evolution” and the latter is just 1.
Can you show me proof saying attaining enlightenment is required to summon said personas? You even quoted Vairocana, who can be summoned by the p2ep cast. Who was stated to not be enlightened yet. When was it stated you needed enlightenment to use A”K?
Don’t know, don’t care. Find me a scan saying it’s required to attain enlightenment to summon A”K and your argument would actually stand. That’s literally all I ask. A”K is enlightened, he could summon him. Vairocana is enlightened, P2EP cast could summon him. None of these humans were enlightened so it’s safe to say it’s not a prerequisite.
Ah, that cool scene with Sataneal, absolutely wonderful.
Here’s joker gaining the world arcana BTW. How often he uses it is irrelevant.
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If only they knew we were arguing this topic under the discord rn.
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Never said it was, what I'm saying is he can't be an Archetype of the self/Humanities infinite potential.
You quite literally misinterpret everything lol. I'm saying he can't be humanities infinite potential if he, you know, lost to people who aren't even close to that level.
No it's is the full potential of humanity.
Ya and this makes it even more obvious that you haven't read a lick of Jung, or even attempted to. Both Buddha and Sakya are an archetype of the self. And I'm not saying that you need to be an Archetype of the self to summon "enlightened" Personas, I'm saying that It doesn't make you enlightened.
Yes, but it doesn't give you enlightenment, that's what the proof above is meant to be. He is not an enlighten figure simply because he absorbed A.K. Neither is Junpei, any of the P2 cast, nor makoto before the universe arcana. All of these people are humans with flaws, thus can't be Philemons perfect human.
Please show how it isn't symbolic in any way shape or form. He quite literally never uses it a single time. If Makoto got the universe arcana, never used it once, then ******* died, You wouldn't exactly say he actually scales to the universe arcana, now would you? Of course this is an exaggerated example but you get the point.
Firstly they are only half. They are the "Light" and the "Dark" within every human. I quite literally don't know how people can't understand such a simple concept. And if both of them were Humanities infinite potential, then ya, I would say it's illogical for them to lose to HUMANS. But they aren't.
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where the arguments originally come from isnt a rebuttalReddit debunk time.
dont really care about the topic, but ive seen this line of thinking be used elsewhere
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