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Medaka Kurokami vs Ashen

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Well yes the futures "cease to exist" that will not prevent them being "all fictioned back to reality" though.

If she bullets Majin Buu, majin buu dies, because the future where he regens from dust gets erased.

If she bullets...idk Jill (if it works on that) then she dies because the future where she gets revived by The Basanos doesn't exist. (if it won't work on jill let's just assume it works on that level)

If she bullets Medaka. The future where she comes back to life via All Fiction gets erased. Though that doesn't stop All Fiction from erasing the:

1. Bullet being fired at all.

2. The bullet from being prepared.

3. The bullet from hitting Medaka.

Etc etc. There is nothing to suggest All Fiction can't rewrite reality into "the bullet missed" by erasing the "it hit" part (like how Kumagawa did with his screws once, i can show you scans later if you need). If it never hit Medaka or if it was never fired (All Fiction just undoes the bullet being fired like how it did vs Munakata where it erased ALL the dmg he suffered in that fight instead of just the killing blow) it never erased it's futures. The futures cease to exist, though there is nothing to suggest they can't be brought back via reality/timeline alteration like All Fictioning, even more so when we include the fact that the past takes precedence in this case as if the past never happened the future WILL change.

And yeah this was a good one. Im seeing ppl call Ashen a "he" and thought "meh a typo" then i saw her pic in the profile and im like "HOLY DAMN, KILL IT WITH FIRE"....i regret checking out her profile.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
snip snip
Click to expand...
Dude, once the bullet gets fired all the futures where she survives stop existing. This isn't something you can lol nope back from. even if she causalities the bullet so it never fired, the futures still do not exist. We aren't working off of some higher axis of time or anything like that. The fact that the bullet got fired means that the futures where the bullets got undone stopped existing.

Also, just to be clear, it isn't the bullet landing that kills all the futures, its the bullet being fired that kills all the futures. Once the bullet is fired, the futures where the bullets get negated do not exist, the futures where the bullets being made are negated do not exist, etc. The bullets landing is neither here not there, sure they will always strike her heart and kill, but she would be able to survive that via her style anyway; its the fact that the futures where she survives do not exist that its so powerful.
 
Ok i get it, but again, the "futures being undone" can you prove that it can't work. This isn't just something you can say purely out of possibility or line of thought. Yes the futures are all erased, but what happens if i go into the past to negate such action? What happens if the future never gets shot out of existence? Again yes anything stops existing, it doesn't mean it can't be rewinded out of reality.

Yes you shot the bullet erasing all my futures, i mean you thought you did, you just imagined that you shot the bullet, the bullet was never fired, nothing of the sort happened, it was all in your head, there doesn't exist a reality where the bullet was fired. The "fact" that the bullet was fired is not real, it's just fantasy.

That's all ficition, you need to show me a case of a similar thing being negated. You can't just say causality doesn't reach the bullet. Cause and Effect (cause the bullet was shot, effect the futures were erased), Causality reaches anything, so you need to show a similar case.

And yeah don't quote walls of text, just type "@Earl" or "@Fire".
 
If you go from a future that got erased to negate that future getting erased, that isn't possible. As soon as the bullet gets fired, anything from the future that would stop it from being fired no longer exists, and cannot exist, so the things from the futures can't negate it.

Not really, the fact that the bullet was fired happened, but All Fiction made it so it didn't happen. the fact that the bullet was fired means the any activation of all fiction after that will not happen, because it was destroyed along with all the other futures. Sure, if Medaka could somehow activate all fiction she might negate it, but she won't because that possibility died with that future.
 
@Iap

The problem is, we'r not from the future, we'r from the past. The futures for "MEDAKA" get erased, All Fiction is not the same doe. All Fiction does all that stuff alone. All Fiction doesn't get affected. Medaka herself does nothing, All Fiction does. Anything that happens is from a past to create a future. When Medaka dies All Fiction instantly (which counts as a present literally the moment Medaka dies due to futures not existing) changes the past in order to bring Medaka back (her futures basically).

Now i say "all fiction instantly" because due to the bullet medaka will be unable to "hold back all fiction" the same way Kumagawa does. It was clearly stated that Kumagawa can only hold back All Fiction and not use all fiction to come back (ajimu implied that). Since it won't be possible for Medaka to hold it back an "instant" ability like All Fiction should techincally work instantly. Like how a bullet will move at bullet speed unless it encounters obstacles the same thing will apply here, All Fiction will move instantly unless there is an obstacle (Medaka's will) to stop it.

Also would the bullet stop her from going to the "dream world" aswell? I mean it's practically death, just "irrecoverable" death. Unless there is something else about it. If this applies then about the instant all fiction...throw it out the window, since Medaka would hold it back for a bit (half a second to 1 or 2 seconds at best).
 
I don't get it. The future stuff reminds me of the exact argument used for Kumagawa vs Kakeru.[[1]]

Like the future stuff was counter due to There being no possible future because of AF.
 
Yusuke138 said:
I don't get it. The future stuff reminds me of the exact argument used for Kumagawa vs Kakeru.[[1]]
Like the future stuff was counter due to There being no possible future because of AF.
Click to expand...
Well yeah pretty much. All Fiction is a past action, it won't be defeated by a future affecting hax. The future will always be at a dissadvantage (unless the future hax is some broken bullshit like being acasual and unaffected by anything on a 2-A scale) due to the past "coming first".
 
Actually, the past and the future are interconnected. If the Golden bullet destroys all possible futures, that includes the one where she all-fictions
 
That wasn't the reasoning for Kuma vs Kakeru Fire… Kuma won that because there was no future where he could lose, here Medaka's losing cause tgere's not gonna be a future where she can win.

Anyways, reading the previous thread reminded me that minus abilities can't be erased, is that still true for when Medaka copies them, or does she not have that property since she doesn't have minus mentality?
 
Yobobojojo

How is that not stepping in NFL? I mean has the golden bullers ever destroy a future on the level of AF before?
 
@Lapitus if they actually do tank it and can fight afterwards I'm more okay with that as a highball or footnote, I assumed when you said fatally wounded that they were near death after being hit and weren't able to fight. It should be noted that they can't take multiple hits of that level, but can continue fighting after one hit of that level. As long as it's not phrased in a way that causes people to assume they can ordinarily take hits of that level regularly it should be fine to add.

Regarding the possibility of AF returning the futures where Medaka lives, I doubt it can function on such a level. It's never been shown to erase causes that erased things before, even Kumagawa admitted he couldn't return something once it'd been erased by AF, so to say she can return something erased by someone else is a jump in logic I can't support. Were there anything in the series to support it I'd be more willing to entertain such an idea, but there wasn't.

As for the vs battle...I'm leaning toward Ashen, simply because in-character Medaka will likely hesitate just long enough for the gun to be fired. Were she to act instantly she'd win for sure via completelty destroying Ashen's body, but her complacency in normal fights has always been a huge weakness. Ashen being able to oneshot with a move that should negate her revival via AF means Ashen is more likely to win, as she's more likely to use it before Medaka uses any of her more powerful skills.
 
@VindictiveLoser

Actually, AF can have its effect redone due to the following below.


  • Non Fiction: Around the time of the fight with Iihiko, All Fiction was upgraded to undo things that have already been undone. However, this is never seen in use, as everyone Kumagawa has offered to bring lost things back for has outright refused him.
  • April Fiction: Kumagawa's so-called "new Minus," born from the skill given to him by Ajimu after her death. Kumagawa mixes his All Fiction with Ajimu's Unskilled, which limits the time an item is erased to three minutes before returning to normal.
 
I was more or less referring to Medaka's AF. She hasn't seen Non Fiction used, as Kumagawa never had the chance to use it, and hasn't heard the name as he left before telling anyone about it thus she cannot have copied it. April Fiction doens't exactly undo the effects so much as add a condition, that the erased thing is only gone for 3 minutes. Using those as evidence that AF by itself can undo erasure is weak evidence anyway. Neither of those skills could undo the effects of Ashen's attack, at least from my understanding of it from what others have said about it in this thread. Non Fiction woud be her best bet, but as I said she likely doesn't have it anyway.

There's also the issue of it's usage. AF is somewhat automatic, as it's been shown to return the user from death regardless of whether they will it themselves. NF has no showings, thus we cannot say for sure if it can activate automatically. In other words, to undo the erasure she'd have to still exist in some form. After being hit by Ashen's attack, she not only dies, but any futures where she lives are destroyed as well. There's nothing to suggest either AF or NF can undo that when she's already dead and erased.

The fact the future destruction happens before the bullet even hits makes this conclusive as a win, since it means there's no future in which Medaka revives from the attack, and no future in which Encounter stopped the attack. It's the ultimate answer to someone with skills like Medaka, it simply prevents her strongest skills from working.

If Medaka were to instantly do her best to defeat her opponent, she could still totally win, but in-character she's going to hold back massively and that spells her defeat in this case. So yeah, I'm still voting Ashen.
 
Gargoyle One said:
Yusuke138 said:
Yobobojojo

How is that not stepping in NFL? I mean has the golden bullers ever destroy a future on the level of AF before?
Click to expand...
Futures have levels?
Click to expand...
Single future < multiple futures < infinite futures from infinite fime lines (thinking)
 
Sorry if I was confusing about the levels. Let me rephrase it. Has there been a time where Ashen golden bullets failed? If so what was those conditions?
 
Iapitus's argument for Ashen seems to hinge on Medaka hesitating long enough to be killed by golden bullets. I have a few issues with this.

  • Speed is not equal. As of now, Medaka blitzes with or without AFing her speed.
  • Assuming that is changed, this assumes Medaka will sit there and do nothing the entire time somebody pulls out what is clearly a gun and will at no point during that sequence decide to put an end to that by attacking.
  • This seems to eschew the idea that they're in a fighting mindset. Medaka doesn't really have a reason to dillydally. Now, you may say that Ashen looks unassuming enough for that, but consider that most people Medaka fought would ostensibly be regular teens with some having weird hair if nothing was known about their powers. A sketchy, heavily scarred, one eyed woman seems far more intimidating and threatening than her regular opponents. Even if you follow that line of thinking, such an unusual appearance for an individual would likely put Medaka at least somewhat on guard.
All in all, I feel like assuming this much requires a much greater leap in logic than "Medaka punches Ashen explodes and is incapped GG".
 
SBA isn't speed equal
 
@Vindictive

I suggest you go read my blog on all fiction, it will be REALLY helpful if you like to argue in Medaka/Kumagawa debates. In there there is also the reason why Kumagawa finds it hard to undo erasures.

Kumagawa finds it hard to undo "his erasures" (things erased by all fiction were stated to never come back), that is because (as i explained in the blog) All Fiction is causality erasure which can erase the cause of something.

Existence Erasure - Just destruction of something on the smallest possible level to the point of it ceasing to exist anymore. (that's the general idea behind it, and that is Ashen's erasure, it just destroys futures to a point of erasing them from existence)

Causality Erasure - Complete erasure in the literal sense. It's the erasure of something's cause, which leads to the object "never having existed". Without a cause there is no effect. (this is All Fiction, it erases something's cause, so it erases certain parts in reality which would act as "cause" for something Kumagawa desires to erase, undo-ing this kind of erasure is MUCH harder as once a cause there isn't anything you can do, it's not possible to bring it back, because it has no cause/beginning/start unlike the Existence Erasure where it's a flat "cease to exist", Non Fiction would just be bringing the cause back by erasing the cause they were erased. So if i erase a ball, i can erase the fact that i erased the ball from reality in order to bring the ball back, so i erase the "erasure", that's Non Fiction).

sorry if it's complicated

Kumagawa undoing Existence Erasure is not as hard as undo-ing Causality Erasure (u gutta bi smart for that shit). Then again Medaka also has Non Fiction (because Medaka perfects something).
 
I'd be willing to believe Kumagawa can return something that's been erased, but he has never shown the capability to do that and even admits at one point that he can't, at least regarding the things he's erased. It doesn't really matter for this fight anyway, as Medaka won't know to erase the cause of the bullets being fired as she won't realise how dangerous they are. Once they're fired, all timelines where she survives past being hit by them are gone. She will not know this. All she will know is, I have been hit by a bullet, and then when she tries using either Encounter or AF to negate or reflect the damage she would take, neither will be able to activate, as her surviving is no longer possible.

Assuming she can erase the cause of them being fired and restore the destroyed timelines, why are we to assume she knows to do this? The short answer is, we shouldn't.
 
Seems like people are ok with the verdict now? will let one close it and add it then~
 
I would still like someone to address what I typed above either way. The result isn't that important to me, but I'd at least like to know what about that seemed invalid.
 
Just because people agreed with one sodebdoesnt mean all point on the other side are invalid, you made good points throughout the thread yourself.
 
Invalid as in people didn't find the reasoning enough to vote for it. I did kinda post it after a lot of people voted though.
 
Its not that she would just stand there, its that she probably would not go for the AF blitz against an enemy who isn't all that powerful. Note, she has Analysis so she should be able to know that Ashen isn't nearly as physically strong. Her Analysis would reveal its a normal gun, but she would not know about the special bullets. If she just does a normal rush, then the trigger gets pulled before she reaches her.
 
Medaka, along with several other characters in the story, have often been observed willingly taking the first hit from an enemy they don't think can kill them. In this situation, Medaka is fairly likely to allow Ashen to fire the gun, and would go for restraining before she went for the kill. Either strategy gets Medaka killed here, and she also doesn't commonly disarm opponents. Were it bloodlusted she wins the instant the fight starts, but in-character she's decently likely to accidentally allow Ashen an opportunity to kill her, which Ashen will take knowing the power of her bullets should kill regardless.

I thought I'd already said that but I guess not.
 
Why wouldn't analysis not tell her about the bullers? With what she can do to her speed, she would have up until the instant the primer is sparked to act.
 
How would her ability to analyze skills allow her to look at a gun and know the bullets inside will not only kill her, but destroy the timelines in which she survives, before the bullets even hit her? If she has analysis feats on that level that I'm forgetting that work on machines and not skills then I admit I forgot them and Medaka has a much higher chance, enough that I'd probably switch my vote to be honest.

The problem I have with Medaka winning is her in-character mindset prevents her from doing anything that'd cause her to win here. She could theoretically erase the gun and bullets with AF, but she won't. She could move at much higher speeds than Ashen can follow and completely destroy her body and preventing her from firing the gun at all, but she won't. To be honest Medaka being in-character and Ashen having an insta-win button is the only reason this is a match at all.
 
Shooting someone is a skill, knowing that what is shot kills her regardless of her AF doesn't seem too far fetched. She doesn't even need the specifics, just that its something that she can't come back from. Yeah, bloodlusted Medaka is a totally different thing from in character. A lot of people seem to have assumed she was just bloodlusted in every match she had, by the looks of it.
 
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