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Medaka content revision.
- Thread starter Firephoenixearl
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Hahahaha. That's the 2nd time you say it on this thread alone. All this stuff must be tempting you.DodoNova2 said:
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It is probably the most intelligent and layered manga that I have ever read, but it is more a treatise in deconstruction than an actual story.
(It also had quite a lot of very strange overlaps in themes and character archetypes with a fanfiction story that I wrote long ago.)
(It also had quite a lot of very strange overlaps in themes and character archetypes with a fanfiction story that I wrote long ago.)
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What you said is not wrong, i agree with you. But most things i said do not conflict with the "unknown" tier OR the metafictional parody that Medaka Box is. That fact that Ajimu is op af because her role says so is not sth you can disregard, role or not, she IS op. And as stated by Ajimu herself she is on a higher state of being, meaning she exists beyond/above medaka, so much so that she doesn't even see them as ppl, yet The End copied her abilities. That point (as example) doesn't conflict with Ajimu being tier Unknown nor does it have anything to do with the fact that Medaka is the Main Character as we'r mostly talking about the abilities The End has copied, not Medaka herself.
So yeah, i don't think any of my points are conflicting with or exist just because of the "metafictional parody" genre. Though do tell me which points do exist/conflict with it if you think any of them do.
So yeah, i don't think any of my points are conflicting with or exist just because of the "metafictional parody" genre. Though do tell me which points do exist/conflict with it if you think any of them do.
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I'm just an vessel here,but this guy "nickname: Endr" give his reply to Matt and Kaze:
"Matthew and Schro, I will appreciate it if you tone down your bias against Medaka Box as this behavior is unwarranted for the most part.
Evey series, fictional or not, get a fair treatment and fair assessment regardless of their status and ext,.
I will like to see scans that support the OP's argument and then see the opposition for the most part."
"Matthew and Schro, I will appreciate it if you tone down your bias against Medaka Box as this behavior is unwarranted for the most part.
Evey series, fictional or not, get a fair treatment and fair assessment regardless of their status and ext,.
I will like to see scans that support the OP's argument and then see the opposition for the most part."
Rikimarox2
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Ok Fire, I'll address what I know.
10) Ajimu has tons of abilities that have never been shown and probably will never be shown. If we can't see it happen, we can't take the power at face value. I can literally make up a name like '1000 strikes' and come up with some description that has nothing to do with 1000 actual strikes. Like it feels like 1000 strikes. You understand now why we can't just say she has literal "power over life and death"? It's just a name, we can't say it's exactly as advertised.
9) Same as 10. We have no clear evidence other than word of mouth that Ajimu is higher dimensional. Has she demonstrated that? No. Thus, we can't take everything that says she's higher dimensional at face value.
8) This is just wording. We know she can copy abilities from people much stronger than her. If not, she wouldn't have a 5-C or an Unknown tier.
5) Won't be much use seeing that the problem from point 10 exists. We can't take anything she hasn't demonstrated at face value. She has those powers, yes but it it would be redundant to add them if she has never even displayed them. So using them in debates will be a non factor.
3) I agreed with this.
1.1) This is headcanon at best, unless you have scans saying exactly what you described here. From what I know, the description of the ability literally says it makes you as weak as the user. So unless I'm missing something, it remains as what has been stated.
10) Ajimu has tons of abilities that have never been shown and probably will never be shown. If we can't see it happen, we can't take the power at face value. I can literally make up a name like '1000 strikes' and come up with some description that has nothing to do with 1000 actual strikes. Like it feels like 1000 strikes. You understand now why we can't just say she has literal "power over life and death"? It's just a name, we can't say it's exactly as advertised.
9) Same as 10. We have no clear evidence other than word of mouth that Ajimu is higher dimensional. Has she demonstrated that? No. Thus, we can't take everything that says she's higher dimensional at face value.
8) This is just wording. We know she can copy abilities from people much stronger than her. If not, she wouldn't have a 5-C or an Unknown tier.
5) Won't be much use seeing that the problem from point 10 exists. We can't take anything she hasn't demonstrated at face value. She has those powers, yes but it it would be redundant to add them if she has never even displayed them. So using them in debates will be a non factor.
3) I agreed with this.
1.1) This is headcanon at best, unless you have scans saying exactly what you described here. From what I know, the description of the ability literally says it makes you as weak as the user. So unless I'm missing something, it remains as what has been stated.
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1) Medakas ability perfects abilities, but extrapolating to weaker is not legitimate. Especially because it would actually be just more equal, because:
1.1) As described in chapter 91, in the fight of Medaka and Kumagawa, Book Maker does indeed equalize to the user and more than that always to the current state of the user, meaning even if a difference is somehow made in the battle it will instantly be equalized away.
It is actually a very fitting ability for Kumagawa given that it is a ability with which one can not win.
2&4) Probably every passive ability Medaka copies gets an off switch (and from what we see she usually even has them deactivated). The reason is that medaka has perfect control of every ability she copies via The End and that control includes being able to turn the ability off. That much is explained in the fight against Oudo (see chapter 54)
1.1) As described in chapter 91, in the fight of Medaka and Kumagawa, Book Maker does indeed equalize to the user and more than that always to the current state of the user, meaning even if a difference is somehow made in the battle it will instantly be equalized away.
It is actually a very fitting ability for Kumagawa given that it is a ability with which one can not win.
2&4) Probably every passive ability Medaka copies gets an off switch (and from what we see she usually even has them deactivated). The reason is that medaka has perfect control of every ability she copies via The End and that control includes being able to turn the ability off. That much is explained in the fight against Oudo (see chapter 54)
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It is already mentioned on the profiles that it can erase time, to move instantly. It is just that this doens't justify an "infinite" speed stat, for the same reason that teleportation or time stop doesn't justify it.Sir Ovens said:
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1) I didn't get what u meant by that.
1.1) Careful when saying "user" doe. Like i said when used by Medaka it would give anyone a HUGE stat boost which is not something a "minus" such as Bookmaker is allowed to do. The wounds thing is true, that was never what i discussed doe. And saying "bookmaker gets ppl down on Kumagawa's level" even on Medaka's profile is confusing af, so even when used by Medaka Bookmaker is still connected to Kumagawa? Can't happen. Also here https://pm1.narvii.com/5987/3597fd9280344e3b01e7daa07edf95f0aef49989_hq.jpg
Kumagawa saying "bookmaker turns a + into a -" and then says it will drop on "my level" meaning that Kumagawa and a "minus" are synonims. So Kumagawa is a minus, and a minus means being on the same level as Kumagawa.
2&4) Yeah as i said it may be due to TE or AF (same how AF menaged to put an off switch on Emuake, it may be the same just used on herself), but they are not passive (we know for a fact Encounter at least is a passive on Gagamaru not on Medaka doe).
Now on to @Sir Ovens:
10) It's not the name of the power the power description. The name is "Zero Sum Real" and Description is "Power over life and death", and ofc the "Spec over- Become God Skill". Im not asking these abilities to be added to her profile ofc, they are too vague to even consider using in a vs battle, i just want to point out that Medaka's The End allows her to copy even Authority/Divine power/ Powers that give divinity/authority. No matter how much u lowball it's still Authority and Divinity.
9) Well no matter how you spin it, Ajimu transcends everything else on Medaka Box. She said everything was her imagination and even called everyone else ink on paper. You know that Medaka Box has no feats what so ever (medaka: broken ass character = moon buster in feats......Kumagawa: a weaker character in every way= Universal + xD). So just the fact that she can copy abilities from a transcended being such as Ajimu is enough. As for dimensions...Iihiko, he was stated to be of another dimension, both by claim and by explanantion. https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111282515/5243329-1510741782-52432.jpg
Medaka's example shows what happens when a 2D character tries to fight a 3D character (or a 3D such as Medaka vs a higher dimensional character such as Iihiko), basically a "break" without even affecting her in the ways she expects.
8) Im assuming u agreed with this point? This whole point was meant to prove that Medaka can't copy physical capabilities not "Skills" that exceed her physical capabilities, she can copy the latter and it should be fixed on her profile.
5) Still showing she has them is enough. Just so ppl have a basic idea of what Ajimu copied Medaka is. Just to give a basic understanding is enough. Ppl don't have any idea how strong she is to the point that they use "Medaka full skills vs ppl she just stomps" by mistake. Just showing her range of powers is enough imo.
1.1) I showed a scan above and reason why it is on the level of a minus, but sharing wounds with the user. The sharing wounds is related to the user it doesn't make sense otherwise, but the "seal" being related to the user defies the basic principle of a "minus". Minus = a skill that has negative effects on people or the surroundings, therefore giving more destructive powers. It can't buff stats.
1.1) Careful when saying "user" doe. Like i said when used by Medaka it would give anyone a HUGE stat boost which is not something a "minus" such as Bookmaker is allowed to do. The wounds thing is true, that was never what i discussed doe. And saying "bookmaker gets ppl down on Kumagawa's level" even on Medaka's profile is confusing af, so even when used by Medaka Bookmaker is still connected to Kumagawa? Can't happen. Also here https://pm1.narvii.com/5987/3597fd9280344e3b01e7daa07edf95f0aef49989_hq.jpg
Kumagawa saying "bookmaker turns a + into a -" and then says it will drop on "my level" meaning that Kumagawa and a "minus" are synonims. So Kumagawa is a minus, and a minus means being on the same level as Kumagawa.
2&4) Yeah as i said it may be due to TE or AF (same how AF menaged to put an off switch on Emuake, it may be the same just used on herself), but they are not passive (we know for a fact Encounter at least is a passive on Gagamaru not on Medaka doe).
Now on to @Sir Ovens:
10) It's not the name of the power the power description. The name is "Zero Sum Real" and Description is "Power over life and death", and ofc the "Spec over- Become God Skill". Im not asking these abilities to be added to her profile ofc, they are too vague to even consider using in a vs battle, i just want to point out that Medaka's The End allows her to copy even Authority/Divine power/ Powers that give divinity/authority. No matter how much u lowball it's still Authority and Divinity.
9) Well no matter how you spin it, Ajimu transcends everything else on Medaka Box. She said everything was her imagination and even called everyone else ink on paper. You know that Medaka Box has no feats what so ever (medaka: broken ass character = moon buster in feats......Kumagawa: a weaker character in every way= Universal + xD). So just the fact that she can copy abilities from a transcended being such as Ajimu is enough. As for dimensions...Iihiko, he was stated to be of another dimension, both by claim and by explanantion. https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111282515/5243329-1510741782-52432.jpg
Medaka's example shows what happens when a 2D character tries to fight a 3D character (or a 3D such as Medaka vs a higher dimensional character such as Iihiko), basically a "break" without even affecting her in the ways she expects.
8) Im assuming u agreed with this point? This whole point was meant to prove that Medaka can't copy physical capabilities not "Skills" that exceed her physical capabilities, she can copy the latter and it should be fixed on her profile.
5) Still showing she has them is enough. Just so ppl have a basic idea of what Ajimu copied Medaka is. Just to give a basic understanding is enough. Ppl don't have any idea how strong she is to the point that they use "Medaka full skills vs ppl she just stomps" by mistake. Just showing her range of powers is enough imo.
1.1) I showed a scan above and reason why it is on the level of a minus, but sharing wounds with the user. The sharing wounds is related to the user it doesn't make sense otherwise, but the "seal" being related to the user defies the basic principle of a "minus". Minus = a skill that has negative effects on people or the surroundings, therefore giving more destructive powers. It can't buff stats.
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Now all that's left is to wait for KamiYasha and Matthew to join here.
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Is everyone else ok with these up till now?
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He did?
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Right here.Matthew Schroeder said:
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I completely agree that giving Medaka literally every single power ever is ridiculous.
However on a somewhat unrelated note I don't like how various statements in the series are being discarded due to "Medaka being a metafictional parody manga".
It's basically tantamount to "this is fake because the story's genre is comedy" and implies that real things or legit statements can't come from a series that's comical.
If these statements are most likely hyperboles I'm fine with that. But I don't like the reasoning currently given. Just a minor thing though.
However on a somewhat unrelated note I don't like how various statements in the series are being discarded due to "Medaka being a metafictional parody manga".
It's basically tantamount to "this is fake because the story's genre is comedy" and implies that real things or legit statements can't come from a series that's comical.
If these statements are most likely hyperboles I'm fine with that. But I don't like the reasoning currently given. Just a minor thing though.
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I agree 100% with Ryu on that note.
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I mean, one of Medaka's Power is literally "She will always defeat the villain because she's the hero."
If that ain't the definition of a hyperbole then I don't know what is.
If that ain't the definition of a hyperbole then I don't know what is.
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Stuff like a character saying "I created the universe" or Ajimu being able to rise to higher dimensions aren't hyperbolic.
I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm saying there should be better justification.
I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm saying there should be better justification.
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Within Medaka's verse she will always defeat the villain virtue of being a hero. However we can't apply this to all fiction, especially in a neutral universe, and assume she can beat villains vastly beyond anything she's ever shown of course.
Plus a series using hyperboles =/= every statement the series makes ever is a hyperbole.
Either way I still disagree with the idea that because this is a "metafictional parody manga" that we automatically say it can't be used. At least use a different reason for the pages.
Ajimu's statements I'd just say are too vague and unquantifiable to put an exact tier on.
Medaka's statement that she created a universe (Not that she can create a universe, that she did create a universe, as in her creating a universe is an event that happened) seems fairly straightforward.
Plus a series using hyperboles =/= every statement the series makes ever is a hyperbole.
Either way I still disagree with the idea that because this is a "metafictional parody manga" that we automatically say it can't be used. At least use a different reason for the pages.
Ajimu's statements I'd just say are too vague and unquantifiable to put an exact tier on.
Medaka's statement that she created a universe (Not that she can create a universe, that she did create a universe, as in her creating a universe is an event that happened) seems fairly straightforward.
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So can we see the return of Universe+ Mekada at her peak? And if the standards for hyperbole are not that strict, then I guess point 10 should be ok. Divine powers seems pretty straightforward, just that we don't know what it does.
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Again,"Endr" give his opinion here,i'm just an vessel:
"Someone that come from a different dimension is not the same as being an higher dimensional being.
Second, creating a universe can varied from 3-A to low 2-C. Since there is no proof of the main character creating a universe with space and time part, then I can assume it is mainly creating a universe with physical matter only.
If you wonder who I am siding with on this occasion, I am in agreement with Sir Ovens in this case, specifically the higher dimensional part.
There are certain characters that boast their abilities and ect,.
Also where is the Japanese Raw scans? IIRC Medaka Box is a Japanese manga series and thus there is a potential chance of mistranslations, inconsistencies, and plot holes in the series itself."
"Someone that come from a different dimension is not the same as being an higher dimensional being.
Second, creating a universe can varied from 3-A to low 2-C. Since there is no proof of the main character creating a universe with space and time part, then I can assume it is mainly creating a universe with physical matter only.
If you wonder who I am siding with on this occasion, I am in agreement with Sir Ovens in this case, specifically the higher dimensional part.
There are certain characters that boast their abilities and ect,.
Also where is the Japanese Raw scans? IIRC Medaka Box is a Japanese manga series and thus there is a potential chance of mistranslations, inconsistencies, and plot holes in the series itself."
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And here I thought Jojo is the only series that is being exaggerated in here.
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Will possibly 3-A/Low 2-C Medaka finally be returning? hell yeah
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See my comment above plz.....
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Well, the problem is that these claims were just part of a massive amount of wall of text statements without any illustrations, but if we should take them seriously, Medaka would be Low 2-C, yes, and Ajimu Najimi might be 1-B. I remember that the ACF wiki at least used to consider this as unreliable proof though.
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even if we could potentially put Ajimu at 1-B, i would still rather she be kept at Unknown tbh. But I am open to change. I suppose that would also change hanten's rating as well
I think that having possibly in front of these things with a heavy note may be a good middle ground. Perhaps we do something similar to Accelorator and make the different schools of thought on the nature schools of thought and interpretation very clear.
I think that having possibly in front of these things with a heavy note may be a good middle ground. Perhaps we do something similar to Accelorator and make the different schools of thought on the nature schools of thought and interpretation very clear.
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It's a wall of text that is explicitly stating Medaka's powers and abilities. I don't see much reason to discard it. Or at least, "it's a metafictional parody" is not at all any sort of reason.
Ajimu should stay Unknown cause "surpassing dimensions" is way too vague. Being explicitly stated to have the ability to create a universe is very straightfoward though.
Ajimu should stay Unknown cause "surpassing dimensions" is way too vague. Being explicitly stated to have the ability to create a universe is very straightfoward though.
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Yeah. Perhaps we can take the most frank of statements. Also, just to establish, this won't be an outlier either. the lower tiers of other things in the verse do not disqualify the feats of higher characters
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Again for everyone that says "well the powers are too vague" on my points, i never said they should be used in Vs Battles, it's not even possible to use them to begin with (Ajimu is the peak of Medaka Box hierarchy so her Make An Exception skill can mean making an exception to ANY skill which is not ok to consider, and if Ajimu is not considered a god i don't want to know what Become God skill could possibly acomplish, abilities like these can't be used). What i meant to say by those points is that it doesn't matter how small the authority over life and death or how shit the divinity powers are, The End can still copy authority and Divinity. It's a no brainer that Ajimu's skills that are too vague shouldn't be used for Vs Battles.
And about Medaka's tier while yes i do agree to giving her an "at least" tier, she should still keep her status as "unknown". So having something like "Unknown, at least 2-C". And 1 more question. Medaka should be around 2-C, but Ajimu with her "known" skills should be 1-B? Medaka has the strongest skills Ajimu has at 120%, so that big of a difference in tiers....., or are you guys giving a rough assumption on her "full potential" (full set of skills) for Ajimu.
And about Medaka's tier while yes i do agree to giving her an "at least" tier, she should still keep her status as "unknown". So having something like "Unknown, at least 2-C". And 1 more question. Medaka should be around 2-C, but Ajimu with her "known" skills should be 1-B? Medaka has the strongest skills Ajimu has at 120%, so that big of a difference in tiers....., or are you guys giving a rough assumption on her "full potential" (full set of skills) for Ajimu.
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imma be honest man, i don't see exactly what your point is with differentiating divine abilities from normal abilities.
i think you mean low 2-C, not 2-C
i think you mean low 2-C, not 2-C
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It's a list describing all of the powers Medaka has and what they do. One of these powers is described as creating the universe.
Abnormalities/Skills are an established thing within Medaka and whenever they're shown they pretty much do what the power is described as.
Are we going to say that unlike all the other skills every single skill Medaka was stated to have was fake? That when they show an actual list telling you all the powers Medaka has it and what they do it was in fact just the story directly lying to you and she actually doesn't have any of those things.
Or why do we arbitrarily assume this one power is the phony when we accept all the other powers stated?
Also before it's brought up, yes there are some hyperboles and NLFs we discard. That doesn't mean we have to ignore other explicit statements of power. Us discarding the "his wishes have no limits" stuff from Super Shenron didn't stop us from accepting Beerus's statement he could destroy the universe at the time. Us discarding the "Saitama can beat anyone" NLF didn't stop us from accepting his planet level statements.
And combat wise Medaka isn't at all getting upgraded. No regular AP, Striking Strength or Durability is getting changed. She would just have a "Low 2-C" (or a "likely/possibly" Low 2-C) with Pioneer Flag.
Abnormalities/Skills are an established thing within Medaka and whenever they're shown they pretty much do what the power is described as.
Are we going to say that unlike all the other skills every single skill Medaka was stated to have was fake? That when they show an actual list telling you all the powers Medaka has it and what they do it was in fact just the story directly lying to you and she actually doesn't have any of those things.
Or why do we arbitrarily assume this one power is the phony when we accept all the other powers stated?
Also before it's brought up, yes there are some hyperboles and NLFs we discard. That doesn't mean we have to ignore other explicit statements of power. Us discarding the "his wishes have no limits" stuff from Super Shenron didn't stop us from accepting Beerus's statement he could destroy the universe at the time. Us discarding the "Saitama can beat anyone" NLF didn't stop us from accepting his planet level statements.
And combat wise Medaka isn't at all getting upgraded. No regular AP, Striking Strength or Durability is getting changed. She would just have a "Low 2-C" (or a "likely/possibly" Low 2-C) with Pioneer Flag.
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