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Medaka content revision.

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Antvasima said:
I am leaning towards agreeing with Matthew. It seems exaggerated to accept such a massive upgrade based on a name alone.
Click to expand...
Minor nitpick. It's not the name. Pioneer Flag is the name. Then it's described to be a universe creating skill. The universal statement comes from the description of the power itself, not the name of said power.
 
1. Again, these are not the only two interpretations of the intent, the most likely intent is that the ability list is neither literal nor a lie, but rather just a gag not meant to be taken literally, you are thinking that it is a serious description of her powers. It genuinely isn't because she would have used at least one of those somewhere.

2. Fair enough, but that's not my point in 1.
 
Ryukama said:
It's not the name. Pioneer Flag is the name. Then it's described to be a universe creating skill. The universal statement comes from the description of the power itself, not the name of said power.
Click to expand...
Actually, wrong. Medaka is being argued to be universal because she has "Universe Creation Skill" listed amongst the wall of text in the panel.
 
More hostility. Derailing the conversation by attempting to take a shot at me for something off site about a completely unrelated series. Can someone do something about matthew being rude with personal attacks and accusations?

Regardless, you don't have a scan of him erasing the light spectrum so moot point. As for color dude being canon, shown here in the (technical) last chapter of the series https://imgur.com/a/KC3Dc3d which is more evidence than you've shown against any of this.
 
Tbh the Universe Creation's description isn't vastly different from its name, so the name is still an issue.

And IDK how many times a certain verse was brought up, but I think everyone knows about it and it is a good example of why we do not upgrade characters via names.
 
Again, it is used, even if we do not see it.

If you want to bring bias into this then we can. You are the one who downgraded Medaka Box after a thread were Doctor Doom was losing to Medaka got openned. You have expressed in the past that you think Medaka Box shouldn't be used in VS debating, and that is is unfit for this kind of thing.

And no, that is not all there is to it. Styles that are stated to surpass dimensions. 2 different statements of the same skill creating a universe. Kumagawa saying he could erase the universe. Kumagawa's All Fiction feat (even if you say it is just physics manipulation for the sake of argument, universal range physics manipulation can be used to destroy the universe if you can just change the properties of particles like he did).

" Actually, wrong. Medaka is being argued to be universal because she has "Universe Creation Skill" listed amongst the wall of text in the panel. "

No. 1, that doesn't fit the naming sceme. 2, that is the description of the power, not the name of a power. Have you actually seen the scan?
 
The point with the first paragraph is that you are a really suspect source for anything with how you grossly exaggerate plenty of Light Novel and Visual Novel characters off-site. You're pretty infamous for it.

"Regardless, you don't have a scan of him erasing the light spectrum so moot point. As for color dude being canon, shown here in the (technical) last chapter of the series https://imgur.com/a/KC3Dc3d which is more evidence than you've shown against any of this."

Cool, that's no evidence at all. Miss Pizza being in Dragon Ball Super doesn't make Toeiland canon. and it's not a moot point, I just showed how the feat can be done without "Universal Conceptual erasure". You have no counter to that.
 
1. If the narrator directly says "This character can do X" but really means "This character cannot do X" then they are lying. Or if you don't want to use the word "lie", the joke comes from the fact that the character is absurd and that the character does have these stupid powers. The gag comes from how ridiculous the nature of her abilities is, not from them not actually being real.

The comedy of Arale splitting the earth in half are cracking the sun is the fact that she did do these things, and these things she did are completely stupid. Not that she didn't actually do them.

This scene with Medaka is meant to be funny due to how stupid it is for her to have these powers. You're now taking it as a completely different joke. One where the joke is that she actually doesn't have said powers.
 
"Again, it is used, even if we do not see it."

It's not used at all. Cease this headcanon, or at least prove that all 600 abilities were being used.

"You are the one who downgraded Medaka Box after a thread were Doctor Doom was losing to Medaka got openned."

Because people were wanking Medaka there too, much the same people.

"You have expressed in the past that you think Medaka Box shouldn't be used in VS debating, and that is is unfit for this kind of thing."

Never expressed this literally. Medaka is a Tier 8 character with some hax. She can fight plenty of people.

"And no, that is not all there is to it. Styles that are stated to surpass dimensions. 2 different statements of the same skill creating a universe."

Which doesn't count as the skill doesn't exist.

"Kumagawa saying he could erase the universe."

He's not a reliable source of anything and pure statement that contradicts everything was rejected.

"Kumagawa's All Fiction feat (even if you say it is just physics manipulation for the sake of argument, universal range physics manipulation can be used to destroy the universe if you can just change the properties of particles like he did)."

Non-canon and debunked, and unclear hax nonsense that's not universal in any reasonable interpretation.

90% of this doesn't exist and the rest is debunked.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Actually, wrong. Medaka is being argued to be universal because she has "Universe Creation Skill" listed amongst the wall of text in the panel.
Click to expand...
Yes. And this universe creation skill is called "Pioneer Flag". The ability's name is Pioneer Flag. Again minor nitpick. But the actual name of this ability isn't anything relating to universes.
 
"The point with the first paragraph is that you are a really suspect source for anything with how you grossly exaggerate plenty of Light Novel and Visual Novel characters off-site. You're pretty infamous for it."

No, this just appears to be a personal vendetta or bias against me. Why else would you bring up a completely unrelated series about something that happened off-site? And medaka isn't even a LN/VN. This isn't the first time you've gone out of your way to be unnecessarily rude to me on a thread.

"Cool, that's no evidence at all. Miss Pizza being in Dragon Ball Super doesn't make Toeiland canon. and it's not a moot point, I just showed how the feat can be done without "Universal Conceptual erasure". You have no counter to that"

The "just because one series does it" argument is bad at best. You're providing a point without evidence. We know Kumagawa's ability works on a conceptual scale, working on things like death, time, and existence. But color is where you draw the line? Color is where you decide he erased the light spectrum rather than color itself? Kumagawa has always been a rather direct person when using his power despite using it to troll people. I would like to see scans and anti-feats from you to disprove any of this.
 
@Ryu

"This scene with Medaka is meant to be funny due to how stupid it is for her to have these powers. You're now taking it as a completely different joke. One where the joke is that she actually doesn't have said powers."

This is not what I'm saying, what I'm saying that it is a joke about overpowered protagonists being ridiculous, but I am also saying that it ain't literal. It literally cannot be literal. The author didn't intend for the readers to read every syllable of those text walls and come out saying "Wow, Medaka is so strong, she can do all of that."

The fact that every single name uses the Kanji rendering the whole scene an elaborate giant pun makes it more clear that it is a joke not meant to be taken seriously.
 
"The "just because one series does it" argument is bad at best."

Literally all you did here. "He shows in a panel of the manga so it's canon" is not an argument.

"You're providing a point without evidence."

You have no evidence to prove yours, and you want me to prove a negative?

"We know Kumagawa's ability works on a conceptual scale, working on things like death, time, and existence."

False, never did any of this.

"But color is where you draw the line?"

Never stated to erase concept, also non-canon.

"Color is where you decide he erased the light spectrum rather than color itself?"

Yes because it is vastly more reasonable assumption that doesn't require breaking the scale of the franchise which is very low.

"Kumagawa has always been a rather direct person when using his power despite using it to troll people. I would like to see scans and anti-feats from you to disprove any of this."

Can you prove any of this, actually? You can't.
 
So, Medaka creates a Universe. How? Did she create seperate timeline? Is it a parallel universe? Alternate? Brand new universe? Is it a copy of the Universe she is in? Does it require prep? Was it done casually? Is it exhausting? Does she have to make another Big Bang?

If these questions can't be filled in, I don't how to make heads or tails of the ability outside of it being stated. If I can't even begin to do that, then I don't even know if I'm supposed to take it seriously. Or if I even should or could given how it's introduced/stated. If I can't tell the author's intent behind all of this, I've got no foundation of how to even properly judge her.

It's...It's...like a Zen riddle that's not supposed to be solved!
 
CynicalWeeaboo said:
Also I'll ask again, can someone do something about matthew being rude with personal attacks and accusations?
Click to expand...
Can you stop thinking that whenever I express genuine doubt over the legitimate of your claims and the sincerity behind your post, you think I am going with "Personal attacks and accusations".

No, what I'm doing is pointing out that you have been similarly found guilty of exaggerating characters tremendously in the past, so I won't buy what you say without good evidence, which you never provide.

Once bitten, twice shy.

You could use to endure some direct criticism.
 
The author listed out the powers that Medaka has, with the joke being how stupid it is that she has these powers. Therefore her not actually having these powers goes against the joke.

One can argue that he didn't put much thought into writing each individual power or think anyone would actually read the whole list. However the joke is that she has these powers. Not that she doesn't have these powers.

The joke itself plays off the absurdity of what's happening. There is no absurdity if we're to assume what's happening isn't actually happening.

Anyways this is irrelevant to the topic and I have to go to bed. Dropping this for good.
 
Powers that are never demonstrated, clarified, explained, shown, or referred to ever again.

Powers which are only listed in name-only in a giant wall of text where every word is composed of the same Kanji, making it a giant crazy pun.

Powers which are random and nonsensical in their names and effects going from "Become Pregnant" to "Rule the universe".

All of this points to it not being literal.
 
TheC2 said:
So, Medaka creates a Universe. How? Did she create seperate timeline? Is it a parallel universe? Alternate? Brand new universe? Is it a copy of the Universe she is in? Does it require prep? Was it done casually? Is it exhausting? Does she have to make another Big Bang?
Click to expand...
^ I think this is a much better reason for doubting any upgrade.
 
Yes the powers are silly. It's funny that she has such a silly power. It's funny that she has a skill of "becoming pregnant" or "making the same mistake twice".

The joke is she has stupid powers. This doesn't become negated when you point out how stupid the powers are.

All I'm saying is that the joke is that she has stupid powers. The joke isn't that she doesn't have these powers listed.

In VS debating we can ignore these statements based off inconsistencies and violations with how we rate things. But I think analyzing it narratively, the joke is that she has these powers and that it's meant to show that she has these powers.
 
"No, what I'm doing is pointing out that you have been similarly found guilty of exaggerating characters tremendously in the past, so I won't buy what you say without good evidence, which you never provide."

Funny seeings how you haven't posted a single scan to prove your points yet huh?

"False, never did any of this."

Judging the trust worthiness of someone else's word when you don't even know what you're talking about. http://i.imgur.com/45Jmkvf.png and https://imgur.com/a/Mdrns#ZOLw6Fk

But uh, ok. He never did any of that right? You literally don't know what you're talking about. What a joke.
 
I do not want to be part of this debate, I saw the episode with Kulygawa and it seems that Negates conceptually the colors such as never existed in the universe
 
It is, as much as Matt doesn't like to admit it, Good Loser Kumagawa 2 proves it as he fights against him again at the end of the series.
 
Yes? We never assume that you are deleting someone's concept if you erase them, unless there is evidence pointing towards conceptual erasure
 
Matthew has gone to sleep now. It is probably best if I close this thread so it can be reopened when he comes back.
 
Then what else do you call the above color erasure feat?

And what do you call the erasure of someones existence if not conceptual? What do you consider someones existence if not metaphysical and conceptual?
 
Deleting the existence of a person from reality would be, by definition, erasure of a concept; 'existence' is a concept. Erasing existence is thereby the erasure of a concept.

This is fairly straightforward and a point on semantics that is pretty important. Is there some alternate definition of 'concept' you're using here?
 
@DodoNova2

The Anime isn't canon. The profiles are based on the manga, so even if he erased the concept of blue, it wouldn't scale to the profile.

@Everyone else

Looking at the scans, and absolutely nothing shows conceptual manipulation of any kind. He erased a person's existence. That is not a conceptual feat, it has never been treated as such nor will it.

You need to demonstrate that All Fiction erases concepts, rather than simply claiming, and don't link me a non-canon, still debatable scene from the anime in which he simply could have erased part of the light spectrum.

Existence Erasure is just erasing someone physically and spiritually more often than not, and this is only in Verses which outright differ it from just killing someone. If we don't even have proof of spirits / afterlife / whatever existing in Medaka Box, it is very hard to say that All Fiction erases someone's spirit.

The lowest interpretation of "Erasure Techniques" is just that, complete physical annihilation. Then above that you have stuff like erasing in body and soul, and above that you have stuff like erasing in numerous planes of existence and dimensions. Conceptual is usually way above in the interpretations, and requires evidence that Medaka Box quite simply doesn't have.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
The Anime isn't canon. The profiles are based on the manga, so even if he erased the concept of blue, it wouldn't scale to the profile.
Click to expand...
Everything is canon. Even event who are only in the anime and the novels are canon.

This is shown in Volume 22, where we see for example the members of the chess club or the teachers, who are however only in the anime and the Light Novel.
We also see Ezumachi and the characters appearing only in the Kumagawa Gaiden Light Novel.
 
Oh man, this was such a fun read. May i continue now?

1. All Fiction is universal+ he claimed he can do it and was about to do it at some point though was stopped. You can't disproof it since it's "just a claim" since when he tried it started to take effect.

2. All Fiction erasing colors not being cannon is BS. While yeah the manga doesn't have that scene, you still can't disproof a non cannon feat if there is nothing in the manga that proves it wrong. And there is nothing in the manga that proves that AF can't go as high as erasing colors.

3. All Fiction DOES erase concepts. Let me show you:

1) He erased the colors and if it were a simple "light spectrum" then the tube thingy of blue color ezumachi had wouldn't have "ran out" (just watch the fight to know what i mean, the blue container was empty, because there was no blue in a conceptual level, so there can't be a bottle of blue filled with blue, blue had never existed , no one would be able to know about the existence of blue to then make a something with blue in it, that "container" had always been empty), same with the other colors.

2) He erased Zenkichi's concept of sight, his eyeballs were intact he just couldn't see anymore, his "concept" of sight was erased.

3) Kumagwa said he could erase the concept of "combat" to skip to the end of a fight.

So there u go for everyone who didn't know.
 
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