[MCU] Thor: Love and Thunder

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Credit to @Dinobot1996

A lot of characters from Thor: Love and Thunder scale to All-Black the Necrosword possibly moving a star. But VFX interviews clarify that it was simply the moon having a fast orbit around the star that lasts 20 seconds or less

VFX supervisor Pete Dionne on Gorr's moon: “The moon does a complete orbit in less than 20 seconds because its so tiny and twirling quickly,”

Another statement Dionne made: "This sequence takes place on a tiny spinning low-gravity moon, complete with miniaturized terrain features like a one-metre high Andes mountain range, and with a 20 second orbit of the sun."

So their "possibly Star level" ratings should be removed

 

[Arceus0x]

F

 

[Arceus0x]

Rating was kinda sus anyways might as well nuke it

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I agree

 

[Propellus]

Sure

 

[Dinobot1996]

Of course I agree with this.

 

[KLOL506]

Good thing we had a "Possibly" rating.

 

[Gasper]

Agree

 

[Dalesean027]

Agreed, it was possibly for a reason so this just seals it

 

[Excellence616]

I agree

 

[Lacku]

Yeah it's probably for the best were finally doing this, I agree

 

[RanaProGamer]

Yeah, no reason for a Possibly rating with this confirmation. Agree with the removal

 

[ParkerKent007]

Look at the moving light in the top left corner of this scene, and the moving shadow on the dark side of the moon to the bottom right of this scene. It shows the sun moving in the opposite direction of all the other stars. Therefore, regardless of what's happening with the moon, the sun is definitely moving. There is no possible way for the sun to be stationary in this scene.



Furthermore, the movie never actually shows the moon move in an orbit, only rotate on its axis.

Now, looking at all the other moving stars in this scene, some stars in the background are moving faster than some stars in the foreground. If all those other stars were actually stationary, parallax perception would require only the stars in the foreground to appear to be moving faster than the stars in the background.

NASA:

"the parallax effect: the apparent shift in position of a relatively nearby object against more distant ones when viewed from different vantage points."

This means that the onscreen evidence is that ALL of these stars are actually moving. Which could scale Gorr and therefore Thor much higher, since all the other stars were in fact all stationary when Thor and crew first arrived to the moon, the other stars only begin to move as Thor and crew get closer, to what they had previously acknowledged could be a trap by Gorr:



So we have to weigh the VFX supervisor's statements against what is actually shown onscreen, and actual science for celestial bodies. And since there is at least as much onscreen evidence that all these stars are moving, it's best to just leave the power level alone.

Finally, MCU Thor at least also is scaled to MCU Zeus, who is scaled to MCU Khonshu, who moved countless stars in the night sky. Which, by the way, gives validity to the view that Gorr, who can kill gods, could have the power to move countless stars himself. So the power levels are not just based on the Shadow Realm scenes:

MCU THOR

"At least Large Planet level, possibly Star level (Caught an attack from, one-shot and mortally wounded Zeus, who rules over Omnipotence City and is more powerful than even the Egyptian Gods."

MCU ZEUS

At least Large Planet level, possibly Star level (Comparable to, if not stronger than, Ra, the head of the Egyptian Pantheon, who should be stronger than fellow Egyptian Gods like Khonshu and Ammit.

 

[ParkerKent007]

But the main point is this:

Look at the moving light in the top left corner of this scene, and the moving shadow on the dark side of the moon to the bottom right of this scene. It shows the sun moving in the opposite direction of all the other stars. Therefore, regardless of what's happening with the moon, the sun is definitely moving. There is no possible way for the sun to be stationary in this scene.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Finally, MCU Thor at least also is scaled to MCU Zeus, who is scaled to MCU Khonshu, who moved countless stars in the night sky. Which, by the way, gives validity to the view that Gorr, who can kill gods, could have the power to move countless stars himself

Nobody scales to Khonshu's Spatial Manipulation besides Moon Knight

Look at the moving light in the top left corner of this scene, and the moving shadow on the dark side of the moon to the bottom right of this scene. It shows the sun moving in the opposite direction of all the other stars. Therefore, regardless of what's happening with the moon, the sun is definitely moving. There is no possible way for the sun to be stationary in this scene.



Furthermore, the movie never actually shows the moon move in an orbit, only rotate on its axis.

Now, looking at all the other moving stars in this scene, some stars in the background are moving faster than some stars in the foreground. If all those other stars were actually stationary, parallax perception would require only the stars in the foreground to appear to be moving faster than the stars in the background.

NASA:

"the parallax effect: the apparent shift in position of a relatively nearby object against more distant ones when viewed from different vantage points."

This means that the onscreen evidence is that ALL of these stars are actually moving. Which could scale Gorr and therefore Thor much higher, since all the other stars were in fact all stationary when Thor and crew first arrived to the moon, the other stars only begin to move as Thor and crew get closer, to what they had previously acknowledged could be a trap by Gorr:

And yet two consistent statements from official interviews with the VFX artists who worked on this very movie have confirmed the moon's very short orbit around the star

But the main point is this:

Look at the moving light in the top left corner of this scene, and the moving shadow on the dark side of the moon to the bottom right of this scene. It shows the sun moving in the opposite direction of all the other stars. Therefore, regardless of what's happening with the moon, the sun is definitely moving. There is no possible way for the sun to be stationary in this scene.

Even if the star was moving, what at all suggests Gorr was the one moving it?

 

[ParkerKent007]

Even if the star was moving, what at all suggests Gorr was the one moving it?

That's why the rating is "Possibly"

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

That's why the rating is "Possibly"

Should be used to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be notable, but mild. This term should be used sparingly.

Nothing suggests Gorr moved the star, so there is no basis at all

 

[ParkerKent007]

And yet two consistent statements from official interviews with the VFX artists who worked on this very movie have confirmed the moon's very short orbit around the star

And if we're going to prioritize what VFX artists say about something that's not shown onscreen, we also should go by what Thor 1 director Kenneth Branagh said on his director's commentary about the Bifrost battle:

This is the real Kenneth Branagh director’s commentary to Thor 1.

https://mega.nz/file/bAN0AKhD#_GGK_0fhbUuyUrjBvIqybPG7oC3dGvpwvMQWbI_ftbE

He identifies himself at timestamp 0:18 and he says the following at timestamp 1:36:36:

“Two brothers whose conflict now is potentially liable to see the destruction of part or all of the universe but certainly Jotunheim.”

This is base level Thor the director is talking about, who stopped the threat by destroying the Bifrost Bridge and tanking the explosion of its energy beam that was putting the universe at risk.

So we really should just leave the power levels alone here.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

we also should go by what Thor 1 director Kenneth Branagh said on his director's commentary about the Bifrost battle:

This is the real Kenneth Branagh director’s commentary to Thor 1.

https://mega.nz/file/bAN0AKhD#_GGK_0fhbUuyUrjBvIqybPG7oC3dGvpwvMQWbI_ftbE

He identifies himself at timestamp 0:18 and he says the following at timestamp 1:36:36:

“Two brothers whose conflict now is potentially liable to see the destruction of part or all of the universe but certainly Jotunheim.”

This is base level Thor the director is talking about, who stopped the threat by destroying the Bifrost Bridge and tanking the explosion of its energy beam that was putting the universe at risk.

Make your own CRT if you want that to be accepted. Don't derail this one

 

[ParkerKent007]

Make your own CRT if you want that to be accepted. Don't derail this one

I'm giving evidence about MCU Thor in a CRT about an MCU Thor movie. That is perfectly acceptable. But please answer why VFX artist statements should take precedence over a director's statements.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

about an MCU Thor movie

The 2011 Thor movie is not the 2022 Thor: Love and Thunder movie

But please answer why VFX artist statements should take precedence over a director's statements

Make your own CRT if you think the director's statement should be used. That's irrelevant to the purpose of this CRT

 

[ParkerKent007]

I'm not making my own CRT about Kenneth Branagh's director commentary to Thor 1 because I've previously been told that there will never be a star-level upscaling of base level Thor here. I include it here to show that VS Battles already has ruled out taking a creator's statement over onscreen action. But, do what you want here. Ignore the onscreen proof that the L&T Shadow Realm sun is definitely moving onscreen in relation to the other stars. Ignore the fact that VS Battles has previously ruled out using Thor 1 director's commentary about the power of the Bifrost. Create power levels that make you happy.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Ignore the fact that VS Battles has previously ruled out using Thor 1 director's commentary about the power of the Bifrost.

Ignore the fact that VS Battles has accepted VFX statements regarding Surtur's height, Muspelheim being a Dyson sphere and The Destroyer's energy beam being made of fire

Ignore the fact that VS Battles has accepted director statements regarding Ebony Maw's telekinesis operating on a molecular level and him reverse-engineering the Pym Particles alongside Thanos

 

[ThanatosX]

Arishem being 3-A is entirety based on a VFX Interview. We always give a lot of importance to the VFX statements, as it should considering how important special effects are for the MCU, especially in the cosmic department. Which can bring upgrades, like many cases before, or downgrades, like in this case.
If Taika Waititi said that it was actually Gorr that was moving the start around the moon, than we would take his word as a priority considering he is the one that actually wrote the movie and as such he would know the intention behind the scene better than anyone else. But since there is no such statement, ignoring the words of those that actually worked on the movie would be detrimental.
All of this to say that I agree with the downgrade. I never agreed with the rating in the first place anyways, so this is more than fine for me.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

But the main point is this:

Look at the moving light in the top left corner of this scene, and the moving shadow on the dark side of the moon to the bottom right of this scene. It shows the sun moving in the opposite direction of all the other stars. Therefore, regardless of what's happening with the moon, the sun is definitely moving. There is no possible way for the sun to be stationary in this scene.

It can be argued that they just didn't do a good job on the visual representation effects which would explain why the statement is made about the moon being the thing that's suppose to be moving. This is not to say those statements aren't wrong as we have used visual representation over statements before but the comparison you used for those past statements "all the universe" and such can easily be thrown out because we know for a fact that he's not that strong. The difference between the two are a pretty big gap in terms of power and portrayal in my opinion.

Finally, MCU Thor at least also is scaled to MCU Zeus, who is scaled to MCU Khonshu, who moved countless stars in the night sky. Which, by the way, gives validity to the view that Gorr, who can kill gods, could have the power to move countless stars himself. So the power levels are not just based on the Shadow Realm scenes

Issue with this is we don't use that feat of moving countless stars for their direct AP rating (only with spatial manipulation) so to use it as justification for Gorr moving a/multiple stars wouldn't really work.

I myself don't have much of an opinion on what's more usable in the case of this thread but it seems we do lean more in to the statements so long as they are credible. I'm neutral as a whole regarding the downgrade but understand the reasoning so if enough knowledgeable MCU people think it's good then I'm fine with it.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Oof. Alexa play Napoleon Bonaparte there's nothing we can do

 

[ParkerKent007]

It can be argued that they just didn't do a good job on the visual representation effects which would explain why the statement is made about the moon being the thing that's suppose to be moving. This is not to say those statements aren't wrong as we have used visual representation over statements before but the comparison you used for those past statements "all the universe" and such can easily be thrown out because we know for a fact that he's not that strong. The difference between the two are a pretty big gap in terms of power and portrayal in my opinion.


Issue with this is we don't use that feat of moving countless stars for their direct AP rating (only with spatial manipulation) so to use it as justification for Gorr moving a/multiple stars wouldn't really work.

I myself don't have much of an opinion on what's more usable in the case of this thread but it seems we do lean more in to the statements so long as they are credible. I'm neutral as a whole regarding the downgrade but understand the reasoning so if enough knowledgeable MCU people think it's good then I'm fine with it.

For the record, Thor 2 shows Thor overpower the Reality Stone as it is explicitly stated onscreen to be in the process of destroying the entire universe within a limited time span of eight minutes.

 

[ParkerKent007]

Ignore the fact that VS Battles has accepted VFX statements regarding Surtur's height, Muspelheim being a Dyson sphere and The Destroyer's energy beam being made of fire

Ignore the fact that VS Battles has accepted director statements regarding Ebony Maw's telekinesis operating on a molecular level and him reverse-engineering the Pym Particles alongside Thanos

There's nothing onscreen contradictory to any of these statements. This is a false comparison.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

For the record, Thor 2 shows Thor overpower the Reality Stone as it is explicitly stated onscreen to be in the process of destroying the entire universe within a limited time span of eight minutes.

I don't remember the movie events so I can't give a response to this at the moment but are you sure it was the reality stone and not the power stone in the movie?

 

[ParkerKent007]

I don't remember the movie events so I can't give a response to this at the moment but are you sure it was the reality stone and not the power stone in the movie?

Definitely the Reality Stone.

 

[Gasper]

I'm not making my own CRT about Kenneth Branagh's director commentary to Thor 1 because I've previously been told that there will never be a star-level upscaling of base level Thor here. I include it here to show that VS Battles already has ruled out taking a creator's statement over onscreen action. But, do what you want here. Ignore the onscreen proof that the L&T Shadow Realm sun is definitely moving onscreen in relation to the other stars. Ignore the fact that VS Battles has previously ruled out using Thor 1 director's commentary about the power of the Bifrost. Create power levels that make you happy.

There is no proof of what you're saying.

 

[Gasper]

For the record, Thor 2 shows Thor overpower the Reality Stone as it is explicitly stated onscreen to be in the process of destroying the entire universe within a limited time span of eight minutes.

Yeah no, thor is not universal or anything even close to that.

Idk why are you even bringing this up.

 

[ParkerKent007]

Quick recap of all the things MCU Thor did not do:


Blow up Bifrost as it was “potentially liable to see the destruction of part or all of the universe” per Thor 1 director Kenneth Branagh

https://mega.nz/file/bAN0AKhD#_GGK_0fhbUuyUrjBvIqybPG7oC3dGvpwvMQWbI_ftbE



Overpower the Reality Stone as it is explicitly stated onscreen to be in the process of destroying the entire universe within a limited time span of eight minutes



Get hurled MFTL past millions of stars in seconds, outside the Bifrost and before the Sakaar wormhole, effectively tanking an infinite mass punch:



Overpower the full energy of the complete Infinity Gauntlet when Thanos was not holding back (no creator statement ever said he held back)



Saved the life of Eternity, whom Thor said has an altar, which is for worshipping gods, and therefore saved the universe (all Jane's feats are Thor's)

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Overpower the Reality Stone as it is explicitly stated onscreen to be in the process of destroying the entire universe within a limited time span of eight minutes

In terms of AP, the Aether scales to Pre-Awakening Thor, not the other way around.

A CRT was previously made to upgrade its AP, but it was rejected since it destroys the universe through Reality Warping and Transmutation, turning matter into dark matter

Saved the life of Eternity, whom Thor said has an altar, which is for worshipping gods, and therefore saved the universe (all Jane's feats are Thor's)

Saving the universe =/= Universe level AP

(no creator statement ever said he held back)

No creator statement said he used the full power of the Gauntlet

 

[ParkerKent007]

MCU Thor, the character whose first director said his actions are potentially on a universal scale, who repeatedly saves the universe, and who overpowers the Infinity Gauntlet energy beam, is below star level. Cool.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Make another CRT then?

 

[ParkerKent007]

Screw it. Just bust Thor down to 7-A and call it a day. You know you all want to. I'll help. He struggled against Iron Man in Avengers 1. Kurse hurt him with a boulder. Grandmaster's obedience disks electrified him into unconsciousness. And he couldn't even destroy a building sized moon. There you go. Enjoy.

 

[Gasper]

MCU Thor, the character whose first director said his actions are potentially on a universal scale

where

who repeatedly saves the universe

not universal feat

and who overpowers the Infinity Gauntlet energy beam, is below star level. Cool.

There is nothing to suggest thanos was using the full power.

Screw it. Just bust Thor down to 7-A and call it a day. You know you all want to. I'll help. He struggled against Iron Man in Avengers 1. Kurse hurt him with a boulder. Grandmaster's obedience disks electrified him into unconsciousness. And he couldn't even destroy a building sized moon. There you go. Enjoy.

Why are you so butthurt? So just because we don't think hes universal means we want to downgrade him below continent level?

 

[ParkerKent007]

where

This is the real Kenneth Branagh director’s commentary to Thor 1.

https://mega.nz/file/bAN0AKhD#_GGK_0fhbUuyUrjBvIqybPG7oC3dGvpwvMQWbI_ftbE

He identifies himself at timestamp 0:18 and he says the following at timestamp 1:36:36:

“Two brothers whose conflict now is potentially liable to see the destruction of part or all of the universe but certainly Jotunheim.”

 

[ParkerKent007]

Why are you so butthurt? So just because we don't think hes universal means we want to downgrade him below continent level?

I am responding to a move to remove "possibly star level" based on VFX artist statements that directly contradicts onscreen visuals. VS Battles otherwise uses VFX artist statements when they support onscreen visuals or do not directly contradict onscreen visuals. Doing this becomes detached from the reality of the movie.