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Massive Source Downgrades (Maou Gakuin)

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You can add me to agree with the source downgrade, disagree with the HGR tho, source is still a fundamental part of existence, able to regenerate that is HGR. And it is not that they do not qualify, but that they are likely not going to qualify, in this case they do qualify
 
PrinceofPein said:
You can add me to agree with the source downgrade, disagree with the HGR tho, source is still a fundamental part of existence, able to regenerate that is HGR. And it is not that they do not qualify, but that they are likely not going to qualify, in this case they do qualify
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Thanks same ^^, altho I would say its more than baseline CM type 3 (its 4D arguably)
 
@TheGreatJedi13 uhh, you do realize Form is what’s labeled as a concept in God of War souls right? Luck is literally just probability manipulation at best for affecting souls.
 
So as I understand it, once the grace period is over, we'll have enough support to apply the downgrades. However, I would like to wait for further input on the HGR, since the page gives no real indication on when and how type 3 concepts can qualify for HGR. If there are no objections from staff, I can at least nuke type 2 info and concepts from the pages at around midnight (since that's when the grace period ends).
 
Type 2 information Downgrade argument already got debunked don't see a counter argument. Especially with no proof it's sad we have to deal with trust me policy from your end Fuji.
 
The regeneration page says type 3 doesn't typically qualify: "...but only very rarely 3, if there is strong evidence of being similar to the former types in terms of how hard it is to regenerate from them". So I would like to know if source regeneration is treated as being as difficult as regenerating actually type 1/2 concepts or type 2 info in the verse (not just harder than regenerating the mind/soul, keep in mind), because if there is proof of that then HGR can stay.

EldemadeDityjon said:
Type 2 information Downgrade argument already got debunked don't see a counter argument. Especially with no proof it's sad we have to deal with trust me policy from your end Fuji.
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Lol? You can say you debunked whatever you want, won't change the fact that staff still agrees with nuking type 2 info. You can just check the vote tally in the OP.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
The regeneration page says type 3 doesn't typically qualify: "...but only very rarely 3, if there is strong evidence of being similar to the former types in terms of how hard it is to regenerate from them". So I would like to know if source regeneration is treated as being as difficult as regenerating actually type 1/2 concepts or type 2 info in the verse (not just harder than regenerating the mind/soul, keep in mind), because if there is proof of that then HGR can stay.
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Don't teach me English, it can qualify.
 
ImmortalDread said:
Don't teach me English, it can qualify.
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Okay, but you need proof of it qualifying. That's what I'm asking for.

EldemadeDityjon said:
Show me glass or plank addressing information type 2 points ? If you count them without them or you giving a proper reasoning i would just call it a bias Nothing else.
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Glass just agreed with the downgrade in general. Also, neither Dereck nor DDM talked about type 2 info, so by your own logic, no staff disagree with me on that point.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Glass just agreed with the downgrade in general. Also, neither Dereck nor DDM talked about type 2 info, so by your own logic, no staff disagree with me on that point.
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I never suggested you to count dereck or DDM vote for information as Disagree. I asked you to show me where glass and plank agreed after refutes. It's clear cut bias anyone who can read can tell that. It's just ducking without clarifying why our refutes doesn't make sense and your OP is correct. Yeah sure if you want to desperately count that as Win great. I will create a seperate thread not gonna bother with this bias staff vote count.
 
ImmortalDread said:
You always need proof for everything, what is this conversation right now?

@Theglassman12 never agreed with HGR as far as I am concerned.
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The fact she is aiming to nuke the HGR Regeneration from the verse itself shows she is just concerned about that alone and trying to push it. Like we still haven't gotten knowledgeable staff input on this like Elizha and dereck Haven't even came back.
 
?????????????????? My bad, you can't read.
High-Godly: The ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, and soul, along with at least one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence, such as their place in the narrative, their entire history, or the underlying information (Type 2) or concept(s) (Type 1 or 2, but only very rarely 3, if there is strong evidence of being similar to the former types in terms of how hard it is to regenerate from them) needed for them to exist.
Click to expand...
 
ImmortalDread said:
?????????????????? My bad, you can't read.
Click to expand...
You are deliberately overlooking this part: "if there is strong evidence of being similar to the former types in terms of how hard it is to regenerate from them". So I will ask again: Where is the evidence that sources are as difficult to regenerate as type 1/2 concepts, or type 2 information?
 
?????????????????????????? There is evidence of them regenerating after source destruction. Do you actually forget that even if they are CM type 3, they still fundamental aspect of existence? And Anos actually regenerated after source destruction?

This is not even how the **** counter-argument or debunking works, Fuji. Try better.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
You are deliberately overlooking this part: "if there is strong evidence of being similar to the former types in terms of how hard it is to regenerate from them". So I will ask again: Where is the evidence that sources are as difficult to regenerate as type 1/2 concepts, or type 2 information?
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Fuji sorry but you really proved me you can't read, being "similar to the former in terms of how...ect" just implies the functionality of CM type 3 being similiar to CM type 2 or whatever.
 
ImmortalDread said:
?????????????????????????? There is evidence of them regenerating after source destruction. Do you actually forget that even if they are CM type 3, they still fundamental aspect of existence? And Anos actually regenerated after source destruction?

This is not even how the **** counter-argument or debunking works, Fuji. Try better.
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Don't talk down to me when you're the one blatantly ignoring context. The description clearly states that the only way for type 3 concepts to count for HGR is if there is evidence of the type 3 concepts being more difficult to regenerate than other fundamental aspects (like type 1/2 concepts, type 2 info, narrative, history, etc). So can you show me an example where a character who can regenerate one of those things is unable to regenerate their source? If you cannot provide this evidence, then HGR goes. Not my fault if you can't understand.

ImmortalDread said:
Fuji sorry but you really proved me you can't read, being "similar to the former in terms of how...ect" just implies the functionality of CM type 3 being similiar to CM type 2 or whatever.
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It literally says "similar to the former in terms of how hard it is to regenerate from them". That has nothing to do with the functionality of the concept itself, I feel like this is deliberate ignorance on your part (you even cropped the part where it explains how the two are similar... lmao).
 
ImmortalDread said:
And similar on what if it is not about functionality?
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Similar on how hard it is to regenerate.
image.png
 
No I am not, I am testing your English comprehension right now. If it is not “functionality” in the game, then what is it?
 
Alright then

Act like a clown all you want, but this bit's not gonna be nearly as funny when HGR gets nuked because you couldn't be bothered to provide any evidence defending it. I'll start the edits at midnight.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Alright then

Act like a clown all you want, but this bit's not gonna be nearly as funny when HGR gets nuked because you couldn't be bothered to provide any evidence defending it. I'll start the edits at midnight.
Click to expand...
You can't provide any evidence for nuking HGR
 
PrinceofPein said:
Both of you need to calm down
There is a staff conclusion of 3-1
Glass is neutral on HGR which means that HGR is 2-1, and you need one more vote
but the concepts and information edits are good to go
Click to expand...
Exactly this.

Also, not to add that CM 3 and HGR can both go pretty much in the same place tho
 
Let's not get heated, the source was downgraded to concept 3 and apparently Info 2 as well. The standards ask for evidence for HGR with concept 3, if no one provides this proof, regen is nuked along.
 
Because we don't automatically assume regenerating type 3 concepts is HGR. We would need further evidence that they qualify (like being harder to regenerate then type 1 or 2 concepts). So I will ask again: Do you have this evidence?
 
The evidence is in the profile, regenerating from source destruction is HGR. Also, what is “further evidence”, the feat is there. You can't technically throw it as mid-godly when the source is clearly mentioned as a fundamental aspect of existence, and there are characters who literally regenerated from source destruction. So again:

If you can't even explain “like being harder to regenerate like 1 or 2 concepts” standards, because it is clearly talking about similar functionality to CM type 2 and CM type 1, then you have no right to apply anything in the profiles.
 
First: The link given for accepting the CM is 100% wrong, as that is a CRT that has not been terminated, this is the CRT that the CM is accepted on:https://vsbattles.com/threads/conceptual-manipulation-clarifications-revisions.128012/page-3

Second: It is addressed MANY times, that "universal" is just a figure of speech (universe = reality = area governed), and not really scope.

"So that we're clear: We agree that changing an abstraction in a fashion that affects reality is not Type 1 or 2, unless said abstraction has demonstrated being the fundamental source of a property?"

"Yeah sure, I guess."

They agreed that governing a reality (universal scope) does not instantly make it a type 1 or 2 CM, but rather a more fundamental concept governing "properties" (properties = realities = area governada = objects governed by the CM in page).

"It would make it easier to classify cases where it is not very clear whether they are Type 1 or 2 concept manip, though. Not all fiction is very clear on the matter. Concepts (or other abstractions) frequently are manipulated without really explaining what their nature is in detail."

"What would your alternative suggestion regarding Type 3 be?"

"I still think about keeping type 3 for some kind of safe zone. For example, a character name Toujo Basara, he is said to have a conceptual attack, but nothing more than that; and Siren from Azur Lane, they said that they can control the very fundamental, concept part of the pocket dimension they create, but nothing more than that, and we can't just assume they automatically govern reality universally. Or Tobio from Highschool DxD, he can destroy the concept of magic."

"That's what I meant."

I made further changes to make it so that concepts don't need to be universal in AoE anymore. I hope the formulation is ok.

They agree that verses where the concepts are not well explained, like this one, is one of the examples for CM type 3.

Yeah, because i think if we have concept that govern something at large scale, there should be concept that govern small scale, like an individual, an object, or a group or small place, etc......it is still their fundamental part of their existence, but only for them

I don't like the ""universal"" label. Its gives a strong impression that range/AoE is the prime factor in deciding the type of concept. I am sure we pretty much agreed that range/AoE is a complete non-factor in deciding the Type/Nature of Concept.

They already agreed that the fact range does not change at all whether the CM is type 1 or 2, a fundamental concept that governs properties/reality can be a CM type 1 even if it is only related to one person.

High-Godly: The ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, and soul, along with at least one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence, such as their place in the narrative, their entire history, or the underlying information (Type 2) or concept(s) (Type 1 or 2, but only very rarely 3, if there is strong evidence of being similar to the former types in terms of how hard it is to regenerate from them) needed for them to exist.

The definition of the HGR is literally the description of the source, which is portrayed as a type 2 concept.
 
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