Massive Persona Almost-Verse-Wide Revisions

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Good luck and knock them dead! (But not literally.)

 

[DarkGrath]

I'm back from the interview. Thank you for your support guys.

 

[MattadorProne]

Literally my first post ever but I though I'd throw in my two cents while revisions are a thing. I believe the P5 crew should have acrobatics listed under abilities as well since that is not encompassed by stealth mastery. The parkor they do inside palaces alongside cutsences is what seperates them the most from the characters of the other Persona games, alongside stealth (Joker in casino opening jumps across chandaliers and out the glass window, twists mid air, and lands on his feet unharmed). This would apply to all the PTs except Futaba (who has Flight).

 

[MattadorProne]

Also not sure if Yu (P4 protagonist) should be given Type 2 Immortality since I see no demostration of that in the fight (havn't finised P3 yet). He mearly withstood the hits at 1 HP. He still "required" healing. It is more an equivilant of enduring soul or survival trick if anything (a feat of willpower).

Type 2 Immortality is listed as:

Characters with this degree of immortality can survive injuries that would otherwise be lethal to a normal person, without needing to heal from it.

What this means (from my understanding) is more akin to Madoka characters or Hidan from Naruto where they could be decapatated and live as long as they want with thier head removed without healing intervention. Normal people need their heads to be attached. The injury of decapatation, or losing any limb, is irrelvant to them.

Plenty of weaker tiered characters have clung to life. I also doubt he could spend the rest of his life, or even 5 minutes, remainng at 1 HP. He's at deaths door. IDK there are plently of other instances where charcters cannot fall below 1 HP (when "Igor" orders the twins to kill you or the punishment during Saes fight). I feel as if Yu living is more so Izanagis inability to kill you or a heavy resistance/null towards her attacks rathar than Yu's ability of immortality.

So many animes/games have the survive at 1 HP trope that I cannot say that its immortality. If it was, Yu would need to be able to shrug it off like Hidan for example, who could care less about being decapitated, but Yu looked like he was (well) dying (standard low HP animation). Immortality is a very powerful ability, so it requires stronger backing than what is given, in my opinion

Basically what I'm saying is that Type 2 is not about what type of attack you can survive but instead about what type of injury you can ignore.

 

[Solacis]

So changes to the proposed are:

1. Immunity > Resistance to Time Stop

2. Type 2 Immortality isn't applicable based on the justifications for Yu and Makoto. Although, I still think that it warrants some form of ability to represent the down-to-1HP but still tanking attacks that deal 999(9) damage (i.e. Oho Ikazuchi and Death).

 

[DarkGrath]

It seems like I, and most other people, still agree with just having it as resistance to Time Stop. I think I also agree with the removal of Type 2 Immortality, though I think that deserves a bit more input.

 

[Jasonsith]

So changes to the proposed are:

1. Immunity > Resistance to Time Stop

2. Type 2 Immortality isn't applicable based on the justifications for Yu and Makoto. Although, I still think that it warrants some form of ability to represent the down-to-1HP but still tanking attacks that deal 999(9) damage (i.e. Oho Ikazuchi and Death).

1. I concur with resistance over immunity against time stop.

2. Resistance against One-Shot or One-Hit Knock Out move I think

 

[DarkGrath]

Resistance to One-Shot literally doesn't exist.

One-Shotting is just a wiki term used to denote when the AP of a character is far enough above the Durability of a character for them to be killed in a single hit. The wiki uses a 7.5x AP advantage, but it VERY heavily varies in fiction.

It's probably not an indication of any kind of resistance at all, really. Even if Nyx/Izanami had far higher than a 7.5x AP advantage, depending on the logic of the verse it wouldn't necessarily be a one-shot. Only in Vs Matches is that applicable.

When you also consider that Nyx is still far, far more powerful than Makoto, but the series is trying to establish how powerful Makoto has become as well, it really is probably just an indication that Nyx has an absolutely massive AP advantage over Makoto. This is also backed up by the fact that Makoto can barely harm Nyx.

EDIT: Just thought about this harder, actually. Past a certain point in the battle, Nyx is actually physically unable to harm Makoto (the attack is completely nullified)

 

[MattadorProne]

Pehaps it due to the nature of their personas. Izanagi can't be killed by an electric attack

(Oho Ikazuchi translated as great thunder. Though it is technically almighty damage I'd call that game mechanics due to the animation)

due to his orginal resistance and Messiah/Thanatos cannot be killed by death since they are not bound by it (Thanatos can't die and messiah is always ressurected? I'm guessing havn't finshed P3 yet)

 

[DarkGrath]

Eh, Thanatos being unkillable and Messiah always ressurecting is basing their abilities faaaar too much on the mythology/religion they originate from. Though technically, if you want to talk potential GC, in that final scene in Persona 3 the way that it works is that you are given a hidden passive skill called "Infinite Endure" that will resurrect you to 1hp whenever you are killed no matter what.

You could argue that's reason for resurrection since he does use the skill when he has the Universe Arcana. It's just kinda debatable whether it falls under GC, since it's not ultimately clear whether the intention in that scene is to say he's being resurrected or if he's just enduring the attack.

 

[MattadorProne]

P3 protagonist already has immortality via Regenerationn listed (Type 3) so the discussion is more so for P4. But yes that is what I was implying. I suppose it could just be reistance/immunity to death manipulation (2-Cish) so IDK its indeed debatable.

 

[DarkGrath]

Alright, just took another look at the scene in which Makoto seals Nyx away.

The same messages appear on screen that happen when you are killed by an attack and you have the endure skill. On top of that, it works very similarly on a mechanical level, working even when he was hit while already at 1hp.

I don't know what exactly the endure skill is referred to when it comes to abilities, maybe resurrection? Whatever it is considered, Makoto has a really good version of it. Maybe it could be listed on his profile as "*insert endure skill here* to a far greater extent".

EDIT: Just thought about this harder, actually. Past a certain point in the battle, Nyx is actually physically unable to harm Makoto (the attack is completely nullified). This is despite the fact that the attack is Almighty. Could this be considered Resistance to Resistance Negation?

 

[MattadorProne]

Double checked the Makoto Yuki page. Its listed as resistance to death manipulation, so there is no need to add anything further imo. OP would still like reasoning for narukami. With this as president, I say Izanagi is also using death manipulation although a more bless oriented variation

 

[DarkGrath]

Would it really be considered death manip though? I'm willing to believe it is, but the only major evidence I can think of is that it is an attack quite literally called "Death". But this seems like pretty weak evidence, and I think a similar piece of evidence regarding the Persona 5 3-C evidence was denied (something to do with Big Bang Burger or something like that). It seems far more like it is just a large AP gap, as that doesn't require any major assumptions while calling it Death Manip seems to have quite a few. I'm willing to go either way with it though.

 

[MattadorProne]

Now that I think about it, my translation of that to P4 has no substance. Really I can't see it as anything, at this point, but a very specific resistance that Izanagi-no-Okami posseses towards Izanami. Basically plot armor. Pehaps a very slight gap in strength, where Yu can survive but only just. Thats all I got.

For P3 though it is definatly acceptable for the god of death using an attack called death to be death manipulation (idk if you're challanging this point or just P4). Nyx by lore is bringing about the fall which is death manipulation. I suppose this is the Nyx avatar and not Nyx but I'm willing to stretch this that far.

 

[DarkGrath]

Well, I honestly don't know for sure about Narukami vs Izanami. But I think the Makoto vs Nyx situation could be considered an advanced version of the endure skill. Taking a look at the profile, it looks like it hasn't even gotten listed as an ability.

 

[Solacis]

It can't be that Yu and Makoto simply have enough durability to only barely survive every attack, when it's clear from the fight itself that the damage values far exceed their max HP. Izanami spammed Oho Ikazuchi, which deals a fixed 999 damage, while Yu was already at 1 HP and couldn't heal.

Endurance-Durability Equalization is the best I can think of to describe it. The ability to withstand damage for as long as your stamina doesn't run out.

 

[DarkGrath]

Ahhhhhh, I might have figured it out!

Empowerment . The ability to gain some kind of power through certain means or statistics that wouldn't normally affect their power levels being higher or lower. Think the Green Lanterns, they grow stronger through pure willpower.

In this case, they both gain the power to endure due to a variety of factors, friendship, determination, all those anime tropes they have to introduce in the final battle.

This could be considered a case of empowerment, where something along the lines of "determination" leads to an increase in durability.

 

[MattadorProne]

HP is treated as stamina to an extent since physical skills utilize it. SP falls more into mental fortitude. I mean Makoto uses it all for the great seal but he dosn't immediatly drop dead.

 

[Chrisras]

Dark makes sense with empowerment.

 

[MattadorProne]

Dark you are a genius.

 

[Solacis]

You could be onto something with that. Seeing as the abilities are similar between protagonists awakening their ultimates against the final boss, plus cognitive mechanics being what they are, I'd say more akin to "willpower" than "determination". Semantics, I admit, but with P5's awakening battle OST being named "Will Power" and Personas awakening in response to a strong desire, while being made of the user's Shadow, a manifestation of "desire", I thought it more appropriate.

 

[Solacis]

HP is treated as stamina to an extent since physical skills utilize it. SP falls more into mental fortitude.
I mean Makoto uses it all for the great seal but he dosn't immediatly drop dead.

To an extent, this is true. But the implication for the MCs dying being game over is that the MC actually dies when he runs out of HP.

 

[DarkGrath]

happy cat

how special I feel when someone compliments me for something I do on the wiki

 

[Solacis]

So Empowerment of durability via Willpower it is, then. Edit: OP has been updated with the newest corrections.

 

[DarkGrath]

And yeah, I agree with it essentially being empowerment through willpower. I just didn't want to use that exact word again, since I had already used it to describe the empowerment of the Green Lanterns. Willpower describes it better than Determination, even if they are essentially synonyms.

Should that be added to the OP?

 

[MattadorProne]

Fair enough.

 

[MattadorProne]

Although would this not be inherint to all persona users?

 

[DarkGrath]

I mean... theoretically this would be inherent to all persona users, but by a small enough margin that it doesn't seem to affect them all that much. It's only in extreme cases like with Makoto and Narukami that it seems to have an impact.

 

[Solacis]

To an extent it's possible to apply it to all Persona users, particularly the PTs since cognition is their main schtick, but it's not particularly notable for anyone other than the Wild Cards.

 

[MattadorProne]

I'll leave the decision in your hands then Edit: I did consider the PTs at first but that was only really their awakening not really afterwords so yeah you're right

 

[DarkGrath]

I think it should probably just be applied to the Wild Cards, since it's barely even remotely combat-applicable for anyone else.

This would quite definitively be applied to Makoto and Narukami. I'm not certain if it would be applied to Ren though, since the only ability akin to this they demonstrated in the finale against Yaldabaoth was much closer to Resistance to Resistance Negation than Empowerment.

 

[Solacis]

He did pull it off against Caroline and Justine. So it would apply to his End-Game key and onwards.

 

[Solacis]

Actually, we already note that the Phantom Thieves have Creation via their willpower manifesting as their Phantom Suits and weaponry. It's also shown from when Joker begins the jailbreak that the weapons he reforms are the same as whatever he last equipped, instead of the base weapons he gets in his first awakening. That's a form of Empowerment on its own, I think.

 

[DarkGrath]

Ah, that is a good point actually.

Okay, so, conclusions on this point.

Makoto, Narukami, and Akira will all get Empowerment through willpower around their end-game key. This effect can theoretically be applied to any Persona user, but will not be added to anyone elses profile.

Is there any disagreement with this?

 

[Solacis]

Actually, we already note that the Phantom Thieves have Creation via their willpower manifesting as their Phantom Suits and weaponry. It's also shown from when Joker begins the jailbreak that the weapons he reforms are the same as whatever he last equipped, instead of the base weapons he gets in his first awakening. That's a form of Empowerment on its own, I think.

^^^

 

[MattadorProne]

Sounds good

 

[DarkGrath]

Ah, yes, sorry. I typed up that comment without refreshing the page, so I didn't see that part.

I think that can be considered Empowerment, but in his end-game key it should be said that he has "Empowerment to a far greater extent".

EDIT: Actually, just throwing an idea out here. As a solution to the whole "Should Persona users automatically have empowerment" issue, maybe all Persona users can be listed as having empowerment and the end-game keys for the protags can have "Empowerment to a far greater extent".

 

[Solacis]

I suppose that's fine, since it's technically true.

 

[DarkGrath]

Alright, revision to my previous statement.

All Persona users in the franchise will have Empowerment. The Protagonists of Persona 3/4/5 will all get "Empowerment to a far greater extent" in their end-game keys (specifically Makoto with the Universe Arcana, Narukami with Izanagi-no-Okami, and Akira in the end-game before Satanael).