Massive Persona Almost-Verse-Wide Revisions

[Solacis]

It's a resistance that serves as effective immunity, like Jotaro's own immunity to time stop. Immunity is derivative of Resistance anyway.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I see. Alright, fully agree.

 

[DarkGrath]

Immunity is only given in VERY extreme circumstances. For example, Immunity to Soul Manip is usually only given to characters without a soul. I agree with him just having really good resistance to it, though admittedly Time Stop has always worked a bit different to other abilities so I'm willing to change my mind.

 

[Solacis]

The ability to move normally, completely unaffected by the complete halting of the flow of time on a universal scale is pretty clear-cut immunity to time stop.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Immunity is NLF. We use resistance for these, even when the resistences are massive.

 

[Solacis]

Although I should probably note what Yaldy's Reality Warping hax consists of, huh?

Excluding the ones the PTs already resist, they include:

• Pocket Reality Manipulation
• Existence Erasure
• BFR
• Fusionism
• Power Nullification
• Matter Manipulation
• Conceptual Manipulation
• Spatial Manipulation
• Sealing

I'll note this on the OP

 

[DarkGrath]

Immunity is NLF. We use resistance for these, even when the resistences are massive.

This is correct. Though looking at what I can find on Time Stop, it seems like it's not "tiered" in quite the same way as other abilities. There seems to be just normal time stop, and "1-A" Time Stop. Ren should be granted resistance to Time Stop, as there's no proof of him resisting Time Stop on a 1-A level.

 

[Solacis]

Immunity is NLF. We use resistance for these, even when the resistences are massive.

Not in this case. Time Stop is the complete halting of the time flow. Characters that can move in frozen time are immune to time stop, plain and simple. There's no stronger degree of time stop than time stop as is, only weaker degrees like Forbidden Balor View from Highschool DxD which has specific limitations on its potency. Unless stated otherwise in-universe, Time Stop is assumed to be at the highest degree, and moving within it is considered immunity.

 

[DarkGrath]

Again, as I mentioned, there are two different levels of Time Stop. 1-A characters are automatically resistant to everything below them, as they exist above it hierarchally. 1-A Time Stop is the next level of Time Stop, that works against 1-A beings. Ren has shown immunity to regular Time Stop, but unless we see him resistant to Time Stop on a 1-A level, it's just considered resistance.

 

[The_Divine_Phoenix]

Time Stop actually has a lot more than that. It's often based on range, but timestopping Infinites and Immeasurables also grants more potent timestop.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Shouldn't P2 and P2 scale potentially

Like, Philemon is superior to the Velvet Room inhabitants since he created them, and all Personas Power come from him originally

And in P1 Manga, there's a bunch of "dimension" and "universe" merging statements. Lastly, P1 Protag should be comparable to SMT If protag, who fought someone who literally controlled the entire Expanse (SMT Expanse)

 

[The_Divine_Phoenix]

Wouldn't that indirectly make everyone scale? At least everyone who fights one of the Velvet Room people?

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

That's what I was thinking.

Also Tatsuya from P2 was strong enough to bruise Philemon with a punch

 

[The_Divine_Phoenix]

P3 Crew scales because they can fight Elizabeth for example.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Huh. Low 2-C Junpei. Wow!

 

[HST_Master]

Not to mention they can fight Margaret, who's stronger than Elizabeth in P3P.

 

[DarkGrath]

Not to mention they can fight Margaret, who's stronger than Elizabeth in P3P.

Isn't Margaret just equal to Elizabeth?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Margret is far stronger.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

P1 and P2 protags canonically appeared and compared to the SMT:IF protagonist which should make them 2-A

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Time Stop actually has a lot more than that. It's often based on range, but timestopping Infinites and Immeasurables also grants more potent timestop.

Not to mention stuff like Digimon having High 1-C Time stops.

 

[Jasonsith]

Not to mention they can fight Margaret, who's stronger than Elizabeth in P3P.

Isn't Margaret just equal to Elizabeth?

I believe so (story lore wise).

Just Elizabeth and Margaret > Lavenza = Caroline and Justine >> Post-Jailbreak/End-Game Phantom Thieves > Holy Grail >>>>> Baseline Low 2-C.


And once I am done with my busy real life work... maybe someone may need to work on verifying the Arcana Hanged Man freezing feat. (Screwattack says 60 kiloton TNT yield divided by 2 persona users but we need our blog/CRT and verification as always.)

 

[DarkGrath]

Well, the Persona 1 and 2 protags can be handled on a different CRT, since as Solacis mentioned, they really aren't too knowledgeable on P1 and 2. I do have a bit of doubt in my mind about cross-scaling between Persona and SMT though, since at this point it's making a very clear point that it is it's own separate continuity, so references in P1 and 2 to SMT likely are no longer considered canonical. I could be wrong though, since I'm not particularly knowledgeable on them either.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Pretty sure Liz says Marge is stronger than her in P4A

 

[DarkGrath]

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying, Crimson. Just a quick note, I'm doubtful this hasn't been brought up before, but I just want to check. Is there any confirmation that the Arena games are canon?

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

>I do have a bit of doubt in my mind about cross-scaling between Persona and SMT though, since at this point it's making a very clear point that it is it's own separate continuity, so references in P1 and 2 to SMT likely are no longer considered canonical.

I said SMT if, not mainline SMT. SMT if is an alternate timeline to the first SMT game, and Tamaki, the protag of SMT if, actually appears in P1 and P2. https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/Tamaki_Uchida

But yeah, this is mostly a P3-P5 revision huh? Sorry, I assumed it was also P1 and P2 since the title said "Verse-wide", which obviously includes If, 1, and 2. Then again, it did say there almost..

But anyways! For the P3, 4, and 5 stuff; looks good!

 

[DarkGrath]

Great! Sorry, again, I'm not knowledgeable on P1 and 2 or SMT myself, so I really can't reliably comment on those things. I just generally hold a lot of doubt when characters are scaled to characters from other franchises. For an example (funnily enough, directly related to SMT) Dante from Devil May Cry is not considered 2-A due to his appearance in SMT and direct comparison to the stronger characters. His appearance in SMT has an entirely separate profile with its own feats and scaling, localised from his canonical key. I think the same could likely be applied to Tamaki and his appearance in Persona 1 and 2.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Well SMT If is finally translated iirc, so maybe that couldnget a looking into. I also heard that P1 happens after SMT if, since Tamaki moved away from that whole SMT if school to Saint Hermelin (P1 school) since she was fed up of all the demons.

But yeah, for P1, I don't know if the manga is canon, but there's plenty of universe merging statements there; and even if that's not legit, I think at least Philemon should scale to the Velvet Room people via being superior to them, since he created them and Igor serves Philemon himself.

So those who can harm Philemon should scale to Lavenza/Margaret/Joker, and Tatsuya can harm Philemon and his equal Nyarlathotep. Does this make sense?

 

[Solacis]

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying, Crimson. Just a quick note, I'm doubtful this hasn't been brought up before, but I just want to check. Is there any confirmation that the Arena games are canon?

All the spin-offs are canon. The Arena games specifically happened a year after Persona 4. P4G's epilogue occurs later that same year, and the P4D happens about a month after said epilogue.

PQ happened during the storm in P3 and during the culture festival in P4. PQ2 happened after PQ did in P3, after the culture festival but before Namatame in P4, and during Sae's Palace in P5. P3D and P5D all happened in a dream. All these events are wiped from their memories, though.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Hmmm.. I wonder if Sera or Matthew have seen this? They're knowledgeable in Persona; perhaps they could shed some more clarification on this topic.

 

[The_Divine_Phoenix]

I believe Sera is taking a break from the wiki, but she was planning a big Persona revision herself.

 

[DarkGrath]

Well SMT If is finally translated iirc, so maybe that couldnget a looking into. I also heard that P1 happens after SMT if, since Tamaki moved away from that whole SMT if school to Saint Hermelin (P1 school) since she was fed up of all the demons.

But yeah, for P1, I don't know if the manga is canon, but there's plenty of universe merging statements there; and even if that's not legit, I think at least Philemon should scale to the Velvet Room people via being superior to them, since he created them and Igor serves Philemon himself.

So those who can harm Philemon should scale to Lavenza/Margaret/Joker, and Tatsuya can harm Philemon and his equal Nyarlathotep. Does this make sense?

Yep, seems perfectly reasonable to me! I just want to clarify, I practically have no problem whatsoever with any of the feats being thrown around thus far. My previous comments are purely meant to be doubt over scaling to SMT characters.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Oh, I didn't know! Hope she gets a good rest then.

Also I hope Philemon scaling to Justine and Caroline makes sense, since they're all technically his servants via being Igor's Master.

Plus, he can awaken Persona powers... (I just want Maya and Tatsuya to be as strong as the P5 gang ovo)

 

[DarkGrath]

Oh, I didn't know! Hope she gets a good rest then.

Also I hope Philemon scaling to Justine and Caroline makes sense, since they're all technically his servants via being Igor's Master.

Plus, he can awaken Persona powers... (I just want Maya and Tatsuya to be as strong as the P5 gang ovo)

don't worry, I'm sure that's possible owo

 

[DarkGrath]

Anyway, we'd aught to get back on topic. Persona 1 and 2 can be left for later. Is there any disagreement with the points made in the OP? The only point I've seen disagreement on so far is with the resistance/immunity to Time Stop.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

None.

 

[The_Divine_Phoenix]

Resistance is fine, Immunity is not.

 

[DarkGrath]

I agree with just having resistance to Time Stop instead of immunity.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Well assuming people are fine with Philemon scaling...

Tree 1: Velvet Room Master

Ren Amamiya w/ Satanael >>>>> Philemon >/= God of Control > Velvet Room Attendants >> Caroline and Justine >> Post-Jailbreak/End-Game Phantom Thieves > Holy Grail >>>>> Baseline Low 2-C

Tree 2: Philemon being the supreme creator of the Collective Unconsciousness and the one who makes Personas in the first place (I remember this was discussed in an older Persona discussion thread where it was agreed Philemon is basically the boss of all Personas and the Collective Unconsciousness itself)

Philemon and Nyarlathotep >>> P1 and P2 cast (Via fighting Philemon and Nyar) > Ren Amamiya w/ Satanael >>>>> God of Control > Velvet Room Attendants >> Caroline and Justine >> Post-Jailbreak/End-Game Phantom Thieves > Holy Grail >>>>> Baseline Low 2-C

Something like that. I made P1 cast comparable to P2 since the P1 cast canonically join the party of the P2 cast in battle and are comparable.

 

[DarkGrath]

Just letting you all know, I won't be available to comment on this thread for a little while. I've got a job interview coming up very soon, so I'm getting ready.

 

[Thatsafloridathing]

Good luck