Massive Persona Almost-Verse-Wide Revisions PART 2

[Solacis]

- I think it only applies to the Great Seal, where it's stated that he'd remain as the seal until the day mankind overcame wish for death. It's not like he's dead, after all. He's just in the seal instead of his body. It's probably both Types 1 and 3, in that case.

- It's because of the lack of official art, yes. We might get it when P5R comes out, who knows.

- I completely forgot Sae when mentioning the Palace Rulers, fixing that now.

 

[MattadorProne]

- I think it only applies to the Great Seal, where it's stated that he'd remain as the seal until the day mankind overcame wish for death. It's not like he's dead, after all. He's just in the seal instead of his body. It's probably both Types 1 and 3, in that case.
- It's because of the lack of official art, yes. We might get it when P5R comes out, who knows.

- I completely forgot Sae when mentioning the Palace Rulers, fixing that now.

Anything as the great seal should be irrelevant since he is incapable of fighting in that state and his physical body is medically dead. He is not in the seal, he is the seal. Stating he is alive has no basis, since it is soul based and by interpretation can apply to most fictional characters after death (depending on the afterlife in lore). Unless he can interact with the world, any world, by choice (consciously, as a ghost, with an avatar, or though possesion etc.) he's dead or a functional equivilant (like Pokey Minch's absolutly safe capsule). Metis verifies both these (he is the seal and he's dead). link The "with universe arcana" key is before his "death" vs. nyx and therefore should not include it (especially since he can use the seal in the same key; he cannot be and not be the seal at the same time). We could make another key for the great seal, but I don't know if it would ever be useful or justifiable (at best unknown tiering). We cannot prove that any of his abilities or tiering pass on or scale to the seal.

Edit: Checked ??? form for him. Was said to be born from the hearts of SEES. Therefore not Makoto himself.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Just to be sure, literally everyone scales to Low 2-C right? Just wanted to ask just in case there was an exception.

 

[Thatsafloridathing]

Yeah, I think everyone should scale to Low 2-C, so Naoya and the other P1 characters might need to be updated.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

I guess a possible justification for how P1/P2 peeps scale:

For P2: (Fought against Nyarlathotep, who embodies the entire Collective Unconsciousness and is comparable to Philemon. Philemon is the true master of the Velvet Room and of Igor, and should at least be comparable to Margaret.)

For P1: (Fought alongside the Persona 2 protagonists. Fought against Nyarlathotep)

Or something like that. Besides, P2 and P1 (arguably) have their own casual Low 2-C feats, so its not a stretch to imagine that they should also scale, and also remember than Philemon watches over all the Persona 3-5 protagonists, yet did not deem in necessary to interfere, unlike when against Nyarlathotep. Even if you don't want to assume Philemon being above Yaldabaoth, Nyx, and Izanami, he should still be comparable to them as an Administrator and being the totality of the Collective Unconsiousness alongside Nyarlathotep.

Thoughts?

 

[Thatsafloridathing]

It seems legit to me, but I feel like Philemon, Nyarlethotep and P1/P2 casts should be at least Yaldy level, as Philemon is above Igor and the Velvet Room, and on top of that Nyarlethotep is Philemon's equal and Tatsuya defeats him.

 

[HST_Master]

I haven't finished p2 yet, but Philemon and Nyarly should be at least comparable to the other Admins.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

At the least yeah I agree. Also worth noting that Philemon created Personas (I think? I might be wrong because I haven't P2ed in a while), and Nyar is also said to embody all the negative aspects of humanity, with Philemon being the opposite.

I think they even said something about not dying unless humanity dies or something? Could warrant a separate CRT for Abstract Existence but eh.

Anyways, P1 scaling to Low 2-C is a-okay then? Looks like they're all equal now if this is accepted.

 

[Thatsafloridathing]

Yeah, I think P1 peeps should be comparable to P2's cast, Yukino fights alongside with them for most of Innocent Sin anyway.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Yep yep, and Nanjo and Elly even appears in P2 Eternal Punishment so that should be consistent enough.

Also I vaguely remember an older thread mention that even while weakened and without the Crystal Skull/Core of Xibalba (The core of Xibalba is the Sea of Soul's core and maintains it I think), yet Philemon said they can still recreate the universe and erase all memories and events with just the power of their souls alone.

So this would mean the P2 gang are far above Baseline Low 2-C. I wonder if any other P1/P2 knowledgeables can confirm this for me.

Oh and I should also mention that Philemon was literally unaffected by the universal erasure and reset, seeing as how he still knows Tatsuya and the old timeline, alongside with Nyarlathotep. Could be some nice hax.

 

[Thatsafloridathing]

Speaking of hax, is it me or is Tatsuya's profile as of now nearly haxless?

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

He should have a ton of hax tbh. Same as everyone other Persona user, and more too. Time stop, instant kill, mind and soul attacking (Like the other Persona users), and resistances to time stop, existence erasure, memory erasure, and other stuff. You could also argue that since he is a non-existent being after Innocent Sin, he might have Non-existent Physiology or whatever its called here. Oh, and reality creation from his soul, seeing as he literally made a new universe complete with new events and different memories from his soul just by willing it... And then rejected it at the last second.

For Naoya, well he should get the same stuff as the P3/P4 gang. You know, those Mind/Soul shenanigans?

 

[Thatsafloridathing]

Maybe Tatsuya could have some form of either subjective reality or reality warping in his end game key?

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

I mean, Philemon did say that his soul alone was enough to change and alter the entire universe and retcon events and even erase memories, so he should. There's also the whole rumor making, which makes whatever rumor he spreads real. Then there's the fact that he can also literally resist it, since like I said, they all made a new reality but Tatsuya just said "nope" and never lost his memories and resisted literal reality reshaping.

Huh. Similar to Joker's.

But this only applies to Innocent Sin Tatsuya; Eternal Punishment Tatsuya is featless.

 

[Edwellken]

P1 and P2 were supposed to be updated with the Sera blog iirc, but I don't think that's happening any more. which means I probably need to actually finish getting to it myself after all, shit.

 

[MattadorProne]

Started drafting the Sae Niijima profile since there were no real objections to it. Someone want to verify if Sae should have Law Manipulation. She can create and enforce laws (Bet HP, Bet SP, Penalty) and is herself bound by their outcomes (hence it being a law. Its fitting that her real world and shadow abilities are thematically similar). She can control the outcome so long as she is able to cheat, otherwise it is mostly 50/50 (not a gambling expert, but it should be so). This would also allow her Invulnerability (dependant on her laws).

 

[Solacis]

Seems alright to me. Plus it buffs Yaldy, since her having it means it's an ability inherent to Palace Rulers.

 

[Solacis]

To this day I'm still discovering abilities that I didn't know existed on this wiki...

Anyway. Every character with access to Salvation, or the Patra and Amrita variants, should have Purification (Type 3).

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

We also need to give Makoto and Yu a persona and move tabber like Rem has.

 

[Solacis]

If nobody wants to go through so much work, a link to the relevant pages on the megami tensei wiki would suffice.

 

[Shozo_Irie]

Just a doubt. The Yukiko Amagi page that I put on the Persona page has dissappeared. Have I done anything wrong? Do I need to redone it?.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Solacis]

You linked your blog post, not an actual page. You need to create a new page and copy-paste the contents of your blog into it.

While we're on the subject of said profile, you still haven't fixed the various formatting errors that have been pointed out to you in the comments of your blog post. The images are still bad, and you should find or request better renders. The P&A is also mostly wrong, content-wise, and should be rewritten in accordance with the standards recently set by this CRT and its predecessor.

 

[MattadorProne]

If anyone is curious here is the progress on the Sae Niijima Profile. Its still a WIP, but do tell me if anything is incorrect or inproper:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:MattadorProne/Sae_Niijima_Profile_(WIP)

Had to edit the images for Shadow Sae and Levithian to make them transparent. Had no experince doing so, but I think they turned out really good.

Edit: Realised the post above mine may make this come across as a shot or boast of sorts. Not the intention, promise. Not even sure if mine is any good either (1st try at this) Seriously though if you need help Shozo, myself or many others will to do so if you request it.

 

[MattadorProne]

Also verifying if Sae's cheating would be considered Probability Manipulation. I mean technically she is only using a glass lid to do so, but since everthing in a place is rendered real, her methodology for it is less important than the outcome. It would also explain the rigging of the various gambling machines throughout the palace, since she (presumably) never adjusted them physically. Sae's preception in the real world sees odds as being stacked against society, and her Subjective Reality made those odds real.

Since her laws involve her needing to win, I feel we need to represent her advantage in battles.

 

[Solacis]

I don't think a Base key is really needed for the Palace Rulers. It's not like they have any notable abilities outside of their Shadows.

Besides that, Genius Intelligence is overselling it a little. Genius is someone comparable to Naoto, and Sae doesn't really match up. Gifted is more applicable here, coupled with extreme determination.

Leviathan is also missing the following: Martial Arts (displayed in the manga, possibly more skilled than her sister), Transformation (can transform from Shadow Sae into Leviathan), Absorption (can absorb HP and SP, reliant on Laws), Durability Negation (with the absorption effects), Statistics Amplification (w/ Tarukaja, Heat Riser and Desperation), Statistics Reduction and Power Nullification (w/ Dekaja), and Status Effect Inducement (can inflict Dizzy with Hundred Slaps).

 

[MattadorProne]

Sae is definitely a genius. Passing the Japanese bar (lawyer) exam at 17 (in highschool) is an absolutely ridiculous feat and would make her a genius by real life standards (which is what the tiering is based by). Her detective feats are easily at least comparable to Naoto (who notably has done some rathar stupid things: like setting herself up into being kidnapped, not having any security, and then getting kidnapped, nearly dying, and receiving no intel in the process).

Naoto really isn't that smart, it's more so that the other members of the Investigation Team aren't very good at investigating, but whatever. It depends on how we view it. If its only by lore than Yusuke should be ranked higher due to his artistic knowledge and being an honors student on a scholarship. Both Naoto and Sae are noted to be semi-famous by for their work by lore, so I don't really see the difference (although to be fair a lot of Sae's is focused on her beauty, but you could argue Naoto's is simply focused on her age).

Leviathan key is not started yet, but I'll include your mentions when I do. Although Transformation is irrelevant since Shapeshifting supersedes it (noted on transformation page). Finally, I simply added the base key since I saw Shido had one (although I suppose he is activly villainous so it makes sense there).

 

[Solacis]

Leviathan's is Transformation, not Shapeshifting. Shapeshifting is free manipulation of their appearance, while Transformation tops out at a full-body change into a single different form with no control over its specific appearance.

 

[MattadorProne]

Ok, gotcha. Was another thing I had lifted off the Shido profile but probably shouldn't have. I'll have that changed.