Massive Persona Almost-Verse-Wide Revisions PART 2

[Solacis]

Persona vs Fate being gone is honestly the biggest tragedies that came with this revision.

Sure, the Nasu god-tiers are still viable, but... they're never fun.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Some of Nasu Low 2-C are good like Dante vs Emiya, but some of them are shit like Melt vs Yuuki and motherfricking Altjuna vs Gil

Not only Fate, the other verse that always fight 7-A Persona like Pokemon now gone too, this is so disappointing

 

[DarkGrath]

I'm gonna agree with Solacis on this one. All of Yaldys attacks are due to its nature as the treasure of mementos and ruler of the Prison of Regression, born and fueled by the cognitions of the masses. Palace rulers control cognition in thier places (mementos and mementos fused tokyo) -> these cognitions are rendered real -> reality warping. HG turned gold and executed those feats because the masses wanted the intruders (those who refused to enter the cells) and those who would harm the Grail gone (Shadows will yell during the HG fight "Stop it. Stop it." "Don't touch the Holy Grail" "Get out of here"). Those cognitions became real (via "Will of the People" skill after the shadow hecklers)-> reality warping -> BFR and Sealing the PTs from harming the Grail. Therefore the resistances should stay imo since they were a result of what the public wanted, executed via reality warping.

I hate to divert the discussion again, but there's a biiiiiig problem here. Yaldabaoth didn't seal the Phantom Thieves. Yaldabaoth gets sealing from having sealed away Igor, which DEFINITELY had nothing to do with the public's wishes.

I'm willing to accept that resistance to BFR should stay under that line of logic, since I'm fully willing to admit when someone's logic is perfectly valid. But resistance to Sealing is separate from BFR (even though the two are often connected, quite visibly not in this case), and there is no evidence that his sealing is connected to the public's wishes, therefore, not reality warping.

By the way, my apologies for not being active for so long. I've been quite sick and busy the past few days. Hopefully I haven't missed anything too important.

 

[Solacis]

So resistance to Sealing is out, that's fine. Can anyone remember where Matter Manipulation comes from?

Actually, looking through Yaldy's profile, it's surprisingly messy. Gonna clean it up a bit.

 

[MattadorProne]

Hmm I see your point Grath. It makes sense as I think about it. Agreed, should be removed. I was considering it in the aspect of them being trapped in the velvet room cells, but that falls more so under their loss of rebellious will and the resulting renewed and stronger will/pacts they make to free themselves. Even if that was considered sealing (a feat for Yald) that is not indicative of resistance (they could possibly lose the will again). A limitation of the empowerment aspect of personas actually.

 

[DarkGrath]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure trapping them in the cells is just BFR. Even so, there is another small problem I have here (don't worry, I'll try not to drag this one out). Currently, I do actually understand why the PT's get resistances to Yaldy's reality warping hax, and I would say I agree with it. However, the problem here is that the strength of the hax is not properly elaborated on.

What I'm saying is that some of his hax could be depictions of Reality Warping far stronger than others. So by resisting one of his Reality Warping based hax, it can only be implied (though not confirmed) that he resists the others.

I would suggest that the PT's receive definitive resistances to Reality Warping and Existence Erasure, since they obviously resist reality warping (otherwise we wouldn't have this discussion) and they explicitly resist Existence Erasure. For all of the other hax that falls under Reality Warping, they should get a "Possible Resistance to...", simply to account for the chance that those hax are far stronger forms of Reality Warping that they wouldn't resist.

 

[MattadorProne]

I really don't understand what you mean. Perhaps I'm misundertstanding you. Is it because Yaldy doesn't use the hax in the fight? He doesn't have to. The nature of cognitions becoming reality in the fused world means the resisted effects are happening constantly and everywhere. Even chilling at the entrance of the dungeon requires a base level of resistance. As Solacis noted, when you leave the velvet room initially, nothing has changed in terms of public cognition. If the PTs didn't resist them, they would be dead instantly. There is little leway in this in my eyes.

 

[DarkGrath]

Nono, that's not what I meant. Sorry, I can be bad at explanations.

My point is that some forms of reality warping are better than others.

The PT's were able to survive heading into Shibuya because of resistance to reality warping strong enough to negate Yaldabaoth's Existence Erasure.

What I'm saying is that his other hax, such as BFR, might be far stronger forms of reality warping than his Existence Erasure. With that in mind, it can be assumed that they probably resist Yaldabaoth's other Reality Warping hax, but it's not definitive. That's why I suggest a "Possible Resistance to..." for all of Yaldabaoth's Reality Warping hax that is not explicitly demonstrated.

 

[MattadorProne]

Its doesn't matter which is stronger or which is weaker. They have to resist the BFR to whatever level it is or they're dead. An argument could be made (if you find evidence) on which hax is stronger but your suggestion of "possible resistance" makes little sense to me. They have to resist it, at least in the BFR example, since its a constant effect of cognition to protect the Holy Grail (by the basis we justified it upon and the baseline rules we set regarding Yaldys powers). Pehaps we should wait for some outside input?

 

[Solacis]

What proof is there that there's a difference in the potency of Yaldy's reality warping when it comes to separate hax? The variables that affect the potency of Yaldy's reality warping, regardless of what effect he wants to achieve, are the number of people that hold the cognition, as well as the strength of the belief in said cognition in each person.

Yaldy has full control over both variables due to his existing control over the Collective Unconscious. There's no reason to assume that any of his hax are any less potent than any other. The amount of power that goes into his EE is the same amount that goes into his BFR, or his Conceptual Manip. A "possibly" prefix isn't needed.

 

[DarkGrath]

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean, so I apologise if this sounds like a strawman.

When it comes to the other resistances, there really isn't any evidence that they are being explicitly performed by the general public. The fact that the public is dedicated towards helping the Holy Grail does not mean that they are using all of his reality warping hax all at the same time against the PT's, that's purely conjecture. As such, we never see those hax demonstrated against the PT's in their end-game key.

To reiterate the changes I believe should be enacted, I'll spell them out.

What should he definitively removed: Sealing and Fusionism (Neither of them are used on the PT's at any point, and neither of them have anything to do with reality warping)

What should definitively remain: Reality Warping and Existence Erasure (Both are explicitly depicted against the PT's and they do not work, therefore, simply resistance)

What should be given a "Possibly" tag: Everything else related to Reality Warping (Theoretically should fall under their resistance to Reality Warping, but there isn't enough proof that they have good enough Resistance to resist all of them)

 

[MattadorProne]

Ah now I follow. Fair enough. I'll wait for some other opinions before following up on this.

 

[MattadorProne]

What proof is there that there's a difference in the potency of Yaldy's reality warping when it comes to separate hax? The variables that affect the potency of Yaldy's reality warping, regardless of what effect he wants to achieve, are the number of people that hold the cognition, as well as the strength of the belief in said cognition in each person.
Yaldy has full control over both variables due to his existing control over the Collective Unconscious. There's no reason to assume that any of his hax are any less potent than any other. The amount of power that goes into his EE is the same amount that goes into his BFR, or his Conceptual Manip. A "possibly" prefix isn't needed.

^^ This is what I've been trying to say

 

[DarkGrath]

It's alright! If you're tired, go get some rest. We'll probably want input from Solacis first before making any changes. Nobody should ever be the "be-all, end-all" Of these discussions, mind you, but Solacis is always helpful and knowledgeable with these topics. He should definitely get a word in on this first.

 

[Solacis]

snip

You're making the assumption that said hax has been used against the Phantom Thieves post-jailbreak. That is not the case, nor is it the reason why we're giving them these resistances in the first place.

The part you're missing, is the fact that the PTs resist the reality warping first, and the effects second. Their resistance to reality warping comes from their willpower/strength of cognition. Said willpower taking a notable boost after the jailbreak being the current reasoning for their power-up.

The reason why we're giving them resistances to the effects of Yaldy's reality warping is because they resist said reality warping to the point of being unaffected, thus making it so that all applications of said reality warping are automatically resisted as well. Basically, if they resist Yaldy's EE, they resist everything else that comes from reality warping.

Do you get it now?

 

[Solacis]

On another note, I should actually mention that the mechanics of Yaldabaoth's reality warping is actually fairly close to the definition for Subjective Reality. Is this another thing we should be adding to his profile? If so, the Phantom Thieves would resist it as well.

 

[MattadorProne]

It's alright! If you're tired, go get some rest. We'll probably want input from Solacis first before making any changes. Nobody should ever be the "be-all, end-all" Of these discussions, mind you, but Solacis is always helpful and knowledgeable with these topics. He should definitely get a word in on this first.

Lol. I get so absorbed in things like these that I really need to stop myself sometimes. But yeah I'll tap out for now.

 

[DarkGrath]

I think I get what you mean? I'll admit, I'm still somewhat confused, however you were the one to implement them so you'd understand it better than I do. If you think that resisting any of his reality warping equates to resisting all of his reality warping based abilities, then I'm fine with just taking your word for it. I must still insist that Sealing and Fusionism are removed, since neither of them are related to the public's cognition, or by proxy Reality Warping in any way. If you think the rest should stay, that's up to you.

EDIT: Just saw your point about Subjective Reality. I'm not entirely sure about that, to be honest. What he does definitely doesn't fit the definitions of affecting non-existent concepts, merely mental ones. It might fall under the definition of "imaginary", but I'm quite doubtful. Still, it's worth consideration.

 

[Solacis]

Ya'll may or may not have missed my latest posts. Take a look please, because I know that's an unfortunate habit here. One that can be rectified just by doing a mouse-over on the messages tab in the upper right to check if anyone's submitted any replies before sending your own...

 

[DarkGrath]

Yeah, I do that a lot. I'm on mobile right now, so it's obnoxious to click out of the keyboard to check every few seconds. XD

 

[DarkGrath]

P.S: Playing Dark Souls right now. Probably won't be able to respond on here for a little while.

 

[Solacis]

So aside from Sealing and Fusionism, the rest of resistances remain. Glad we've got that out of the way.

Now, about the Subjective Reality thing. For one, Igor always refers to the Collective Unconscious as a "dream", and most of the initial visits to the Velvet Room always take place in dreams. The name of the CU flat-out says that what exists there is transient and imaginary. Everything is shaped by perceptions and imaginations. In P2, things come into reality just by people believing it to exist. In P5, things are erased from reality just by people no longer believing it exists. Sounds pretty textbook to me, though I admit I might be misunderstanding this slightly.

I'll make a quick question thread about it and come back later.

 

[MattadorProne]

On another note, I should actually mention that the mechanics of Yaldabaoth's reality warping is actually fairly close to the definition for Subjective Reality. Is this another thing we should be adding to his profile? If so, the Phantom Thieves would resist it as well.

Hmm.. sounds fairly textbook as you mentioned. Some supporting facts I can provide other than the EE.

1/ all palace rulers have this to a degree that they do subconciously (under creation/summoning) since they create the palaces, and cognitions (like the fake Ann in Kamoshidas Castle) based on what they believe to be true/just. Doors and locks are opened/changed as the cognition of the real world counterpart changes (Madarame, Kaneshiro, Futaba, Sae, all calling cards). This is also why palaces collapse (complete erasure) when their preception changes.

2/ The side quest where the gun-about guy was invincible due to his cognition (negation)

3/ The common populace cannot precieve the fused world (one guy states how nice the weather is despite it raining red). This demonstrates Yaldy is the palace ruler (see point 1)

 

[Solacis]

The 3rd one is more of Yaldy making them think it's normal, and not that they don't see it. But yeah, since no one's replying to the question I posted last night, I guess there's enough evidence to suggest it.

So essentially, anyone with the ability to actively affect the Collective Unconscious/Cognition with their own abilities would have Subjective Reality. These include:

• Every administrator of the CU (Philemon, Nyarly, Izanami, Chronos, Yaldy and Enlil, possibly Erebus and Zeus).
• Every Palace Ruler, but limited to their own Palace only.
• Every Shadow Self, but limited to only their own selves.

Then there's the people that would naturally resist it:

• The Phantom Thieves with their Phantom Suits... and that's about it.

 

[MattadorProne]

Sounds good

 

[Solacis]

Bump

 

[DarkGrath]

Hmm... I suppose I agree with the Subjective Reality thing. It seems solid to me.

 

[Thatsafloridathing]

I agree with subjective reality and resistance to subjective reality for the PTs

 

[Solacis]

I have a question. Do we give Existence Erasure to people with the ability to destroy souls? Because if so, then every Persona user should have it.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Existence erasure is destroying beyond any physical sense. Destroying souls is just soul manipulation. Unless stated to erase the soul.

 

[Solacis]

Got it. Thanks.

 

[Solacis]

Well, all the Phantom Thieves' profiles have been updated.

 

[Solacis]

Yu, Yosuke and Chie have been updated.

 

[Solacis]

FeMC, Elizabeth and Rise have been updated.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

The word invulnerability is being thrown around a lot in these profiles. Can we prove this?

 

[Solacis]

Persona-users share their strength with their Personas. Low-level Personas having Null/Repel/Drain affinities or passives work regardless of level differences (e.g. Jack Frost can't be hurt by Satan's Ice attacks, and Berith can't be hurt by Satanael's standard gun attacks). It's clearly separate from their durability and resistance, since if it were resistance it would just be named as such. It's even somewhat acknowledged in-universe, since regardless of the actual strength of a Persona and its user, super-bosses like the pre-P5 Reaper and Elizabeth will resort to using Almighty if said Persona has a Null skill.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I don't think it matters depending on strength tbh, but I dunno. Just seems like a huge resistance.

 

[Solacis]

The fact that Null Ice negates Low 2-C ice attacks despite being possessed by a 7-C Persona should be telling enough. Huge resistance is stuff like bosses being effectively immune to instant death, or Nyx Avatar's Hanged Man phase having 75% resistance to physical attacks instead of the normal percentage. The latter isn't even specified in-game, where it's just listed as a regular resistance to physical.

Naturally, the Null/Repel/Absorb affinities would work only up to Low 2-C, both because that's the highest level of attack that they've been displayed to be capable of working on, but also because any higher would be considered of an infinitely greater magnitude, which is explicitly specified on the Invulnerability page to be the point where the hax stops working.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Alrighty, guess they're invulnerable.

 

[Solacis]

Just re-checked the final boss of P4, and realized that Yu should also be noted to no longer need SP to cast spells. Can anyone do that real quick? I'm about to eat dinner over here.