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I would, if I could edit profiles on phone. Gonna be a while before I get on my computer.
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Massive Persona Almost-Verse-Wide Revisions PART 2
- Thread starter Solacis
- Start date
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So I was wondering where does the whole soul/mindhax on every hit for persona 5 people come from
Hitting a shadow based on their definition would just be npi, no soul or mindhax involved
If we want to take the whole defeating a shadow affects the user thing as evidence it would at best just be mindhax and it would only work on the actual manifestation of the person's mind as it has no feats of just snacking someone on the street and killing their shadow
As far as I know in persona 5 there is no mention of shadows having anything to do with the soul so the soulhax part makes no sense
Hitting a shadow based on their definition would just be npi, no soul or mindhax involved
If we want to take the whole defeating a shadow affects the user thing as evidence it would at best just be mindhax and it would only work on the actual manifestation of the person's mind as it has no feats of just snacking someone on the street and killing their shadow
As far as I know in persona 5 there is no mention of shadows having anything to do with the soul so the soulhax part makes no sense
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- Thread starter
- #123
Persona in general equalizes the concepts of mind and soul. SP is an abbreviation of spirit points, and is used to fuel the spells cast by a Persona, which is the manifestation of the user's mental strength, yet comes from the sea of its user's soul. Several items across the games also describe SP enhancement accessories by saying that they "strengthen the mind".
Personas are also inherently the same as Shadows; the only difference being that, as Metis put it, they are "tamed". Shadows are fragments of the ego given form in the Collective Unconscious, fragments of the soul. Any attack that completely destroys them would be mindhax and soulhax due to their nature. The reason why Akechi doesn't just blast people outside the Metaverse would be because he can't actually use his Persona outside it, as far as we know.
That isn't to say that if he did, that he'd directly affect a person's Shadow, because the way we're currently interpreting it (due to the weirdness that is Almighty's inherent resistance negation), is that spells don't bypass durability despite being mind/soul hax, and so can't directly affect the mind/soul without getting past said durability first.
Personas are also inherently the same as Shadows; the only difference being that, as Metis put it, they are "tamed". Shadows are fragments of the ego given form in the Collective Unconscious, fragments of the soul. Any attack that completely destroys them would be mindhax and soulhax due to their nature. The reason why Akechi doesn't just blast people outside the Metaverse would be because he can't actually use his Persona outside it, as far as we know.
That isn't to say that if he did, that he'd directly affect a person's Shadow, because the way we're currently interpreting it (due to the weirdness that is Almighty's inherent resistance negation), is that spells don't bypass durability despite being mind/soul hax, and so can't directly affect the mind/soul without getting past said durability first.
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If the only evidence for soul and mind being linked is that "sp is called spirit points" but uses mental strength that is definently not enough to grant soul hax just because they also have mindhax.
I know that shadows and personas are basically the same but as you said a shadow is a fragment of someone's ego given form. Again nothing to do with the soul.
The problem with this all is that hitting the manifestation of someone's ego doesn't give you mindhax it's npi at best
I know that shadows and personas are basically the same but as you said a shadow is a fragment of someone's ego given form. Again nothing to do with the soul.
The problem with this all is that hitting the manifestation of someone's ego doesn't give you mindhax it's npi at best
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- Thread starter
- #125
Shadows are beings that come from the Sea of Souls. Personas are beings that come from the Sea of their users' Souls. Accessories like the Mind Choker enhances SP via strengthening the mind. SP is a representation of mental stamina, yet is restored via items called Soul Drops, Chewing Souls, and Soul Food.
Sera also explained that there is no distinction between heart and soul in Japanese media, and the Phantom Thieves are clearly changing people's minds with their heart-stealing business. Therefore, Heart = Mind = Soul.
Sera also explained that there is no distinction between heart and soul in Japanese media, and the Phantom Thieves are clearly changing people's minds with their heart-stealing business. Therefore, Heart = Mind = Soul.
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Is there anything in the series that points to the sea of souls actually being souls because a name alone isn't enough to give powers in alot of cases
That's not true in all cases otherwise alot of Japanese verses should gain soul and mindhax from mentions of "heart"
Also again even if shadows come from souls and the mind hitting them doesn't mean its soul or mindhax. Stands come from the soul and fighting spirit and you dont see every stand user with soul manip and mindhax for hitting stands.
That's not true in all cases otherwise alot of Japanese verses should gain soul and mindhax from mentions of "heart"
Also again even if shadows come from souls and the mind hitting them doesn't mean its soul or mindhax. Stands come from the soul and fighting spirit and you dont see every stand user with soul manip and mindhax for hitting stands.
ShinyMagicalGirl
She/Her- 1,189
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The Sea of Souls does house actual souls. All of them, in fact. See in Persona 2, Nyarlathotep says to the party that the Sea of Souls in where all souls rest, and that all souls come to and come from him (And Philemon too but that's another topic).
And in Persona 1, we actually see the Sea of Souls. The gang initially thought they were in outer space, but it was clarified that those "stars" in the backgrounds are actually a vast number of souls, and Maki's souls can also be found there.
And in Persona 1, we actually see the Sea of Souls. The gang initially thought they were in outer space, but it was clarified that those "stars" in the backgrounds are actually a vast number of souls, and Maki's souls can also be found there.
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Can anyone give me the reason why Makoto has immortality listed (Type 1 and 3, not talking about 8 for personas)? Assuming this is before he becomes the great seal vs true nyx, we justified surviving fatal hits vs nyx as empowerment correct? This would suggest it is just standard Regenerationn, since it wasn't him regenerating faster than he was dying or him being reduced to dust and returning. His Regenerationn during the fight is also only Mid-Low, and I would expect Majin Buu levels of regen would be required to constitute immortality.
He seems to have Low-Mid regen listed in his persona key, but that isn't enough either and I can't recall where its from so I won't really worry about it. I'll give it the benefit of doubt and assume I missed something.
He seems to have Low-Mid regen listed in his persona key, but that isn't enough either and I can't recall where its from so I won't really worry about it. I'll give it the benefit of doubt and assume I missed something.
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- #130
Also @everyone, what would you all think about a Persona-exclusive Discussion Thread?
I know that the MegaTen DT already exists, but people hardly talk about Persona stuff there, unlike the Nasuverse DT where everyone talks about every installment of the series equally. Tbh I just want to be able to discuss stuff like P5R news, potential revisions without spamming CRTs, and occasionally geek out. It can also be a place to ask questions for Persona knowledgeables to answer without clogging up the Questions thread.
If enough people are interested, I'll make one and link it here so all the knowledgeables and supporters can subscribe.
I know that the MegaTen DT already exists, but people hardly talk about Persona stuff there, unlike the Nasuverse DT where everyone talks about every installment of the series equally. Tbh I just want to be able to discuss stuff like P5R news, potential revisions without spamming CRTs, and occasionally geek out. It can also be a place to ask questions for Persona knowledgeables to answer without clogging up the Questions thread.
If enough people are interested, I'll make one and link it here so all the knowledgeables and supporters can subscribe.
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Sounds good.
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@shiny
Ok that makes more sense but there is still no reason that hitting a shadow is mind and soul hax. Hitting the manifestation of someone's ego is not the same as hitting their mind in the same way hitting a stand isn't the same as hitting someone's soul.
It's just npi
Ok that makes more sense but there is still no reason that hitting a shadow is mind and soul hax. Hitting the manifestation of someone's ego is not the same as hitting their mind in the same way hitting a stand isn't the same as hitting someone's soul.
It's just npi
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- #133
There are two types of manifestations: metaphorical ones, and literal ones. Shadows are the literal manifestations of a person's mind/ego.
The fact that killing a person's Shadow in P5 causes a mental shutdown at all shows that they are directly connected to their owners' minds. In P3, when shadows attack and kill a person in the Dark Hour, it causes Apathy Syndrome, which is described as the loss of a person's ego, thus leading to a lack of desire to live.
We've already discussed this in a previous CRT, and it's been accepted by all the knowledgeable members.
The fact that killing a person's Shadow in P5 causes a mental shutdown at all shows that they are directly connected to their owners' minds. In P3, when shadows attack and kill a person in the Dark Hour, it causes Apathy Syndrome, which is described as the loss of a person's ego, thus leading to a lack of desire to live.
We've already discussed this in a previous CRT, and it's been accepted by all the knowledgeable members.
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Yes they are the literally manifestations of it, as in you dont need mindhax to hit it.
Killing a shadow causes a mental shutdown, hitting one does nothing showing that it isn't mindhax. Killing the shadows or defeating them and taking the treasures results in a shutdown or a change respectively so those could be considered mind/soul hax. Not every single hit is mind/soul hax though
Killing a shadow causes a mental shutdown, hitting one does nothing showing that it isn't mindhax. Killing the shadows or defeating them and taking the treasures results in a shutdown or a change respectively so those could be considered mind/soul hax. Not every single hit is mind/soul hax though
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But if those attacks can kill/hit those manifestations, those embodiments of twisted desires, dreams, and thoughts, doesn't that alone quality for it?
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@milly
No that would just be npi
@Solacis
Akechi had a specific ability that let him do this iirc. Affecting a shadow is just npi besides killing them, which causes a breakdown and is mindhax, whatever Akechi does which is mindhax, and what the phantom thieves do upon defeating one which is mindhax.
In other words defeating a shadow results in mindhax hitting them on it's own doesn't
No that would just be npi
@Solacis
Akechi had a specific ability that let him do this iirc. Affecting a shadow is just npi besides killing them, which causes a breakdown and is mindhax, whatever Akechi does which is mindhax, and what the phantom thieves do upon defeating one which is mindhax.
In other words defeating a shadow results in mindhax hitting them on it's own doesn't
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- Thread starter
- #138
You keep repeating "It's just NPI" over and over without actually giving reasons to support your claim. The most you've done is make assumptions without basis on the mechanics of Shadows and Personas, while comparing Personas with Stands when they aren't even related outside of having a similar surface-level explanation of what they are.
Shadows have been shown time and again to directly affect their owners with their own state of being. Killing a Shadow kills its owner. Making a Shadow go crazy makes its owner go crazy. There is NO reason to assume that they are anything but what the games say they are, that they're direct manifestations of the mind and soul.
Affecting Stands is only NPI because Stands like Anubis exist, which disproves them being direct manifestations of the mind/soul. The fact that Stands are also described as manifestations of "fighting spirit" and "life energy" instead of "the mind" or "the soul", also contributes to this. Personas are NOT Stands.
Shadows have been shown time and again to directly affect their owners with their own state of being. Killing a Shadow kills its owner. Making a Shadow go crazy makes its owner go crazy. There is NO reason to assume that they are anything but what the games say they are, that they're direct manifestations of the mind and soul.
Affecting Stands is only NPI because Stands like Anubis exist, which disproves them being direct manifestations of the mind/soul. The fact that Stands are also described as manifestations of "fighting spirit" and "life energy" instead of "the mind" or "the soul", also contributes to this. Personas are NOT Stands.
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You don't need mindhax to affect the direct manifestatio of something through since it has already been manifested. Here is what the npi page says: "The power to interact with intangible or non-corporeal beings. Users can both see and interact with intangible, or non-corporeal, abstract, and nonexistent life-forms and entities, allowing them to make physical contact and possibly cause harm."
Hitting a shadow then is textbook npi
Shadows have been shown to affect their users in the cases where they die, which shuts down their mind, or when the shadow is hit with Akechi's thing to make them go crazy. Those two cases are mindhax yes. Hitting a shadow has never mindhaxed someone killing them affects the person and driving them mad does too.
Stands like Anubis do not at all disprove that but ok I'll compare it to things other than stands
Kazakiri Hyouka is the manifestation of aim fields, hitting her doesn't need the target to be able to hit some abstract mental energy byproduct
Hitting Nocturne doesn't give you dream manipulation
You don't need soul or law manipulation to touch Gladsheim even though it stems from Reinhard's law
Celty Sturluso's weapons are manifested from the shadows she produces, interacting with those doesn't mean you have shadow manipulation
Aura in RWBY is manifested from the soul but hitting aura doesn't give you soul manipulation either
Tl;Dr, hitting the manifestation of x thing dosen't mean you have x hax. Killing a shadow kills the actual person which can be taken as mindhax or as some other form of hax. Driving a shadow mad drives the person mad, but just hitting a shadow doesn't hit the person's mind or affect them in any way. You don't gain X hax for hitting the manifestation of X thing, you get NPI most of the time
Hitting a shadow then is textbook npi
Shadows have been shown to affect their users in the cases where they die, which shuts down their mind, or when the shadow is hit with Akechi's thing to make them go crazy. Those two cases are mindhax yes. Hitting a shadow has never mindhaxed someone killing them affects the person and driving them mad does too.
Stands like Anubis do not at all disprove that but ok I'll compare it to things other than stands
Kazakiri Hyouka is the manifestation of aim fields, hitting her doesn't need the target to be able to hit some abstract mental energy byproduct
Hitting Nocturne doesn't give you dream manipulation
You don't need soul or law manipulation to touch Gladsheim even though it stems from Reinhard's law
Celty Sturluso's weapons are manifested from the shadows she produces, interacting with those doesn't mean you have shadow manipulation
Aura in RWBY is manifested from the soul but hitting aura doesn't give you soul manipulation either
Tl;Dr, hitting the manifestation of x thing dosen't mean you have x hax. Killing a shadow kills the actual person which can be taken as mindhax or as some other form of hax. Driving a shadow mad drives the person mad, but just hitting a shadow doesn't hit the person's mind or affect them in any way. You don't gain X hax for hitting the manifestation of X thing, you get NPI most of the time
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- Thread starter
- #140
Kazakiri's personal state has, afaik, never been shown to affect the AIM fields that she's a manifestation of.
RWBY's Aura has never been shown to directly affect the souls they are manifested from.
Celty isn't affected by the state of her shadows, either.
The part that you're confused about here, is the fact that unlike other manifestations, Shadows and their users are two-way streets. You affect one, you affect the other. You kill one, you kill the other. Make one go crazy, and the other will too. Convince one to reform, and the other will do the same. It's the same as the relationship between Reality and the Metaverse in regards to Cognitive Psience.
The reason it's noted that every ability of a Persona-user is an extension of Soul/Mind Manipulation is to clarify the mechanics of their attacks. If only NPI is listed, then the fact that Persona-users can and would destroy the soul/mind would be overlooked, because NPI doesn't typically imply the capability for soul/mind destruction. Regardless, if just damaging a soul/mind only qualifies for NPI, affecting them with anything other than raw damage is still clear-cut Soul/Mind Manipulation. Yes, even things that fall under biological afflictions like Poison or Dizziness, if inflicted by a Persona/Shadow, would also qualify, because Shadows don't have a physiology that would process regular poison or dizziness.
RWBY's Aura has never been shown to directly affect the souls they are manifested from.
Celty isn't affected by the state of her shadows, either.
The part that you're confused about here, is the fact that unlike other manifestations, Shadows and their users are two-way streets. You affect one, you affect the other. You kill one, you kill the other. Make one go crazy, and the other will too. Convince one to reform, and the other will do the same. It's the same as the relationship between Reality and the Metaverse in regards to Cognitive Psience.
The reason it's noted that every ability of a Persona-user is an extension of Soul/Mind Manipulation is to clarify the mechanics of their attacks. If only NPI is listed, then the fact that Persona-users can and would destroy the soul/mind would be overlooked, because NPI doesn't typically imply the capability for soul/mind destruction. Regardless, if just damaging a soul/mind only qualifies for NPI, affecting them with anything other than raw damage is still clear-cut Soul/Mind Manipulation. Yes, even things that fall under biological afflictions like Poison or Dizziness, if inflicted by a Persona/Shadow, would also qualify, because Shadows don't have a physiology that would process regular poison or dizziness.
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I know that affecting a shadow affects the user but that's only through defeating them by either, reforming them, killing them or making them go mad, just hitting them doesn't do that
Sure you can say that due to shadows not having biological systems that would allow poison or dizziness afflicting one with those could be considered mind/soulhax but not every single hit is mind/soul hax which is the problem because the profiles make some people think that's the case
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- #142
To an extent, soul/mind damage is considered soul/mindhax. A character with NPI destroying a part of someone's soul would still be considered a form of soulhax since souls don't adhere to conventional durability. Likewise, resisting soul destruction automatically warrants a resistance to soul manipulation. The same applies to mind destruction and resistance to mind manipulation.
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Naoto, Margaret and Labrys have been updated. I also noticed that I accidentally deleted the PTs resistance to Perception Manipulation, so I fixed that.
At this point, all the Phantom Thieves, Akechi, Yaldabaoth, all the existing Seekers of Truth, Margaret, Labrys, Makoto, FeMC, all the existing Shadow Operatives and Elizabeth have been updated by me. Really starting to feel lonely here.
Would be nice if people made more matches though. At least then I'd have something else to do here.
At this point, all the Phantom Thieves, Akechi, Yaldabaoth, all the existing Seekers of Truth, Margaret, Labrys, Makoto, FeMC, all the existing Shadow Operatives and Elizabeth have been updated by me. Really starting to feel lonely here.
Would be nice if people made more matches though. At least then I'd have something else to do here.
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I'm actually with Paul in regards to the NPI thing. This is not to say I don't think they have mind/soul hax, just that it's definitely being interpreted the wrong way.
Being able to damage someone's disembodied soul/mind is NPI. The fact that killing their shadow leads to their death is cool and all, but they've never been shown, implied, or stated to be able to do so by attacking the person's real body, which is something I've seen argued to be the case in every other vs thread since recent revisions.
And before someone says "well they can't use their personas in the real world anyway so such expecting a statement would be pointless", well, 1: That actually doesn't help the case of there being a lack of a feat or any real solid evidence for them having the ability they're being argued to have. And 2: That's blatantly not the case anyway, as in both P1 and P2 characters are capable of doing that very thing; upwards of 50 to 70% of both games takes place in the "real world", and in P1 in particular, some of the most prominent enemies are seemingly regular dudes with guns or even using their actual bare hands fighting against the party and their personas. In neither game is it even implied that hitting someone with a persona does anything to their mind, soul, or do anything more than regular damage for that matter, and is actually shown pretty consistently to not be the case when fighting regular humans, who outside of being inexplicably strong enough to fight the party, have no real reason or implication to be resistant to mind and soul damage.
Being able to damage someone's disembodied soul/mind is NPI. The fact that killing their shadow leads to their death is cool and all, but they've never been shown, implied, or stated to be able to do so by attacking the person's real body, which is something I've seen argued to be the case in every other vs thread since recent revisions.
And before someone says "well they can't use their personas in the real world anyway so such expecting a statement would be pointless", well, 1: That actually doesn't help the case of there being a lack of a feat or any real solid evidence for them having the ability they're being argued to have. And 2: That's blatantly not the case anyway, as in both P1 and P2 characters are capable of doing that very thing; upwards of 50 to 70% of both games takes place in the "real world", and in P1 in particular, some of the most prominent enemies are seemingly regular dudes with guns or even using their actual bare hands fighting against the party and their personas. In neither game is it even implied that hitting someone with a persona does anything to their mind, soul, or do anything more than regular damage for that matter, and is actually shown pretty consistently to not be the case when fighting regular humans, who outside of being inexplicably strong enough to fight the party, have no real reason or implication to be resistant to mind and soul damage.
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I see, that wasn't actually what I meant by Persona users having mind/soul hax, so I must've made a mistake in wording somewhere.
To clear things up, I do not believe that either Persona-users or their Personas should be capable of mind/soul hax just by virtue of hitting their opponents. This is why I specified in regards to the previous thread's Almighty revision that the physical body has to be destroyed before Personas and their users can actually damage their opponents' souls/minds. Personas don't have mind/soul manipulation in the vein of bypassing durability to directly affect the soul - at least not in terms of their standard offense.
Their only means of direct mind/soul manipulation are through skills that inherently bypass durability, such as ailment spells and spirit/life drain. Attacking a person does NOT affect the mind and soul at all, at least until physical durability is no longer a factor. If the opponent either leaves or has no physical body to protect it, such as in the case of ghosts and other spirits, only then will Persona-users be able to damage their minds/souls via NPI. Otherwise, their magic acts like any other.
Tl;dr Personas and their users don't affect the mind and soul with their regular attacks. I've already addressed this in Part 1 of this CRT, though I don't think I made it clear enough. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
To clear things up, I do not believe that either Persona-users or their Personas should be capable of mind/soul hax just by virtue of hitting their opponents. This is why I specified in regards to the previous thread's Almighty revision that the physical body has to be destroyed before Personas and their users can actually damage their opponents' souls/minds. Personas don't have mind/soul manipulation in the vein of bypassing durability to directly affect the soul - at least not in terms of their standard offense.
Their only means of direct mind/soul manipulation are through skills that inherently bypass durability, such as ailment spells and spirit/life drain. Attacking a person does NOT affect the mind and soul at all, at least until physical durability is no longer a factor. If the opponent either leaves or has no physical body to protect it, such as in the case of ghosts and other spirits, only then will Persona-users be able to damage their minds/souls via NPI. Otherwise, their magic acts like any other.
Tl;dr Personas and their users don't affect the mind and soul with their regular attacks. I've already addressed this in Part 1 of this CRT, though I don't think I made it clear enough. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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The new Persona-Exclusive Discussion Thread is up.
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3289742
Before you ask, yes. I put way more effort into this than was needed, but damn if I'll let it be the same old boring format again.
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3289742
Before you ask, yes. I put way more effort into this than was needed, but damn if I'll let it be the same old boring format again.
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Woah there boi. I said there wasn't anything to add or remove from the profiles regarding the NPI and Soul/Mind Manip. I didn't say that all the profiles are done being updated. There are a bunch of profiles that haven't been updated to standard regarding previous agreements.
All the Phantom Thieves, Akechi, Yaldabaoth, all the existing Seekers of Truth, Margaret, Labrys, Makoto, FeMC, all the existing Shadow Operatives and Elizabeth have been updated by me. Take your pick on updating what's left.
All the Phantom Thieves, Akechi, Yaldabaoth, all the existing Seekers of Truth, Margaret, Labrys, Makoto, FeMC, all the existing Shadow Operatives and Elizabeth have been updated by me. Take your pick on updating what's left.
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Justine and Caroline?
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Profiles to be updated:
- Aigis (P4A abilities)
- Mitsuru (P4A abilities)
- Junpei (P4A abilities)
- Chie Satonaka (P4G skill-list and P4A abilities and techniques)
- Teddie (P4A moves)
- Rise Kujikawa (P4G skill-list and P4A techniques)
- Tohru Adachi (full)
- Margaret (P4A techniques)
- Sho Minazuki (Sho and Minazuki should be seperate keys, needs overhaul)
- Masayoshi Shido (full)
- Akihiko Sanada
- Ken Amada
- Fuuka Yamagishi
- Takaya Sakaki
- Jin Shirato
- Chidori Yoshino
- Marie / Izanami-no-Mikoto
- Izanami
- Hi-no-Kagutsuchi
- Rei
- Zen/Chronos
- Zeus
- Suguru Kamoshida
- Ichiryusai Madarame
- Junya Kaneshiro
- Kunikazu Okumura
- Sae Niijima
- Enlil
- Kasumi Yoshizawa (one day...)
- Makoto Yuki
- Kotone Shiomi/FeMC
- Koromaru
- Yu Narukami
- Yosuke Hanamura
- Naoto Shirogane
- Ren Amamiya
- Morgana
- Ryuji Sakamoto
- Ann Takamaki
- Yusuke Kitagawa
- Makoto Niijima
- Futaba Sakura
- Haru Okumura
- Goro Akechi
- Yaldabaoth
- Shadow Keys for P4 cast and Futaba.
- Either separate keys, or entirely separate profiles for Persona Q (leaning towards the latter, because of the sheer amount of stuff in the Q series).
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Looked over the ones you noted as finished. I know you are not stating the completed ones are final or anything, but I though I'd address these before we move on for simplicity (so we can focus on the new stuff)
-I would like some input from others on the Makoto/FemC immortality justification before we move on (Type 3 mostly)
-Aketchi should have the images added for Crow and Black Mask added before I would finalize that one (making it consistant with the other PTs). Although may be due to a lack of official art idk.
-Best girl Sae Nijima needs a profile (I can do it if no one minds; still fresh here. Know how to, just not the permissioning aspect)
Otherwise sounds good.
-I would like some input from others on the Makoto/FemC immortality justification before we move on (Type 3 mostly)
-Aketchi should have the images added for Crow and Black Mask added before I would finalize that one (making it consistant with the other PTs). Although may be due to a lack of official art idk.
-Best girl Sae Nijima needs a profile (I can do it if no one minds; still fresh here. Know how to, just not the permissioning aspect)
Otherwise sounds good.
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