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Massive Persona Almost-Verse-Wide Revisions PART 2

Sounds good to me. I'll hold off on doing any of the Wild Card users profiles for now then.
 
On another note, I do have one thing to mention. True Nyx should actually have Type 3 Abstract Existence, not Type 2. She isn't reliant on her abstraction in order to survive, and there is nothing to suggest that she can ressurect and regenerate endlessly so long as it exists.
 
I was actually wondering about that in this thread. I'm perfectly fine with changing it to Type 3, I just wasn't 100% sure. If you're confident about it, I can change it now.
 
Done. Thank you for clarifying.
 
Don't feel the need to apologise about being sick! I really hope you get better sometime soon. :)
 
What profiles have yet to be handled, Solacis?

EDIT: It doesn't seem like Yusuke's profile has been handled yet. I'll deal with that now that I have the free time.
 
Something I need to clarify with the other knowledgeables. But should the immunity granted by passive skills and persona affinities be considered a form of Invulnerability? I didn't actually realize said ability page existed, and seeing how said immunities work (i.e. Jack Frost nullifying Satan's Ice Age despite the massive tier difference), I'm pretty sure it should qualify. This would affect the wording concerning the relevant abilities, and if it's accepted we'd have to comb through the profiles again to make sure it's written right.
 
I think that would count as Invulnerability up to Low 2-C, yes. "Immunity" is not really fitting here, since there isn't any exact proof that they are completely immune. Only immune to elemental manip up to what the series has shown.
 
Right. The way it works is more or less the same as the invulnerabilities of the example characters, so it shouldn't be too complicated. I'd much prefer more input though.
 
Yeah, probably best to get some more input. Still, when editing Yusuke's profile I was a bit dubious about him having Immunity to Ice Manipulation, given how ridiculously strict "Immunity" is due to NLF.
 
I originally brought up this point in this thread. Since it is moreso an argument about what a character's statistics should be rather than how their statistics affect the match, I figured it was better to bring it up here.

Currently, Ren and the rest of the Phantom Thieves have resistances to all of Yaldabaoth's major hax, due to the fact that they weren't stomped with those hax during the fight with Yaldabaoth near the end of the game. There are several major problems here.

1: Yaldabaoth never even attempted to use those hax during the fight. We can't give a character resistances to abilities they've never resisted or even scaled to resistances for just because their opponent chose not to use them. That's a far, far greater indication that the opponent just doesn't use their hax in character, which is actually backed up by the game considering that most of those hax (such as sealing) were only used once by Yaldabaoth over one of the longest video games ever made. This might have been evidence that they would be resistant if we had a statement from Yaldabaoth such as "I'm not even going to try using this on you, because I know it wouldn't work", but we don't. We don't consider characters like Dante resistant to Durability Negation just because their opponents with that ability don't try it on him.

2: Yaldabaoth didn't even have any reason to try those hax anyway. Even if we go off of the belief that he'd use those hax in-character, which is practically unfounded anyway, Yaldabaoth during the fight was clearly shown to be practically playing with the Phantom Thieves. Even after you "win" the fight, Yaldabaoth is shown to be completely unaffected to the point that Ren killing him afterwards is still considered a one-shot. He stomps so hard through AP that he didn't even have a reason to use his hax in the first place, so assuming that it was because his opponents were resistant to it is just unreasonable.

There are many, many different reasons that explain why Yaldabaoth did not use his hax in the fight against the Phantom Thieves. To assume that is means Ren and all the Phantom Thieves have resistances to incredible abilities that they have never once demonstrated any resistances to is possibly the least likely explanation, and as such there is no reason to assume it should be the case. As such, I'd like to request that those resistances are removed from their profiles.
 
Hst master said:
You could always put High Reistance, some other profiles I've seen have that.
Click to expand...
It does work exactly as the Invulnerability page defines it. High Resistance isn't necessarily accurate when it doesn't deal 0 damage, instead just flat-out nullifying.
 
Thatsafloridathing said:
Yeah, it always seemed weird to me that they got resistances based on the fact that Yaldabaoth didn't use his hax against them.
Click to expand...
My reasoning was that because the PTs are empowered by their willpower, which takes the form of suits that defend from cognitive distortions (i.e. reality warping), then a power-up to said willpower (as shown during the jailbreak) would logically empower said resistance.

Seeing as all of Yaldabaoth's hax (except mindhax) relies on his reality warping, then the PTs resisting said reality warping to the point of no longer being affected would logically make it so that they resist the effects of the hax reliant on said reality warping, no? Somebody correct me if I'm misinterpreting this though.
 
I do understand your point, but there are some big problems with it. My apologies if I have trouble wording myself here; I'm a bit sick at the moment and my head is very fuzzy. I keep rewriting this to get my point across clearly.

Quite simply, far too many assumptions are being made here.

1: The powerup also increases the power of their resistance to reality warping.

2: All of Yaldabaoth's hax is 100% dependant on reality warping.

3: The presumptious powerup to their resistance to reality warping is good enough to resist every single one of Yaldabaoth's hax that is even partially dependant on reality warping.

4: Breaking the jail cells is inherently a feat of resistance to reality warping.

5: Breaking the jail cells is good enough of a resistance feat to resist everything else.

And quite a few more. If you squint really hard, then you ca explain a few assumptions away as being mostly logical. But quite simply, there's far, far too much extrapolation happening here. Especially when it comes to resistances to those kinds of hax (such as Sealing and BFR, which often requires a massive burden of proof). They have never even once directly shown to be resistant to any of the hax they've been listed with, and the only evidence that they do have such resistances is based on a long list of assumptions with little backing and massively extrapolating from both mostly incomplete and vague data. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and this evidence just doesn't meet the burden of proof.

Also, I just wanted to quickly state that I'm aware a few of my recent comments have seemed a bit aggresive. I just want to be clear that this is not at all intentional. I bring up the fact that this happens often on my profile. I just want to assure you that I have absolutely no spite towards you or any of the characters I'm debating for/against.
 
Don't worry about sounding aggressive to me. I personally don't see it.

To address your points:

1. I've already explained this. Willpower is what manifests the Phantom Suits. The Phantom Suits defend their wearers from reality warping. Therefore, the PTs willpower defend them from reality warping. Their willpower took an obvious boost during the jailbreak, and this easily explains how they could return to existence despite still not existing within the public's cognition. To clarify, when I refer to the jailbreak, I mean when Joker convinces each member of the PTs to regain their rebellious willpower, not when he broke his own jail cell.

2. Looking it over once more, I can see what you mean now. While I do agree that certain hax like Sealing, BFR and Fusionism are questionable in terms of being reliant on reality warping, other hax like Perception Manipulation, Existence Erasure and Conceptual Manipulation definitely are.

3. Seeing as the PTs were perfectly fine existing in Shibuya despite the public not having remembered them yet, I think it's pretty safe to say that they can when they were easily erased not an hour before.

4. I never said that. Breaking the jail cells are a symbolic representation of their restored and empowered willpower. It's not a feat, but an event. An event that just so happens to tie into why their willpower is now strong enough to resist Yaldy's reality warping.

5. Already addressed above.

There is no guessing here. The suits protect from reality warping. The suits are formed by willpower. The PTs willpower were empowered during the jailbreak. The increase in willpower would then logically strengthen the suits' existing ability to resist reality warping, which just so happens to be the basis of a lot of Yaldy's hax. It's really not that complicated.
 
My apologies, looking back at my comment I really didn't explain myself well there. I put a lot of focus onto things that weren't really a part of my main point. My main point is that the PT's having an increased resistance to reality warping does not mean they would recieve resistance to all reality warping based moves. Yes, Yaldy's powers are mainly based around reality warping. Yes, they do have resistance to reality warping, and yes, it at least makes some sense that their resistance to reality warping is increased with the jail break. But there is no evidence it increases it to the point of resisting all of Yaldy's hax. There isn't even that much evidence it increases it by all that much, much less to the point that every single one of Yaldy's hax is nullified. Though I'm aware this isn't what you meant, it'd be NLF to assume that an increased resistance to reality warping would nullify all reality warping based abilities. The same line of logic can be applied here; Yaldy's reality warping is never compared to the PT's reality warping resistance, but we do know at least that Yaldy's reality warping was strong enough to work on them beforehand. There isn't any evidence that the PT's resistance to reality warping is better than Yaldy's reality warping, and since stating that it is would be considered the positive assertion here, you have the burden of proof here to say that their resistance is better than Yaldy's hax. Since that part is never shown or even implied, it can be assumed that it is not the case.

As I mentioned before, I am quite unwell right now, so I apologise again if this was confusing. I'm also pretty sure I slipped on my words on a few parts, so I'll clarify anything necessary later. I won't be on the VBW from now until at least tomorrow, and I definitely do not have the energy for debate. I'm going to get an early night. I'll respond to any further comments or rebuttals when I can.

EDIT: Jesus... just read through that again and I'm being confusing as all hell. Alright, let me reword this.

Phantom Thieves have resistance to reality warping, Yaldabaoth has reality warping hax

Pre-Jail Break, the Phantom Thieves resistance to reality warping is not as good as Yaldy's hax, so his hax is still able to work on them

Post-Jail Break, the Phantom Thieves have better resistance to reality warping.

My point is that "they have better resistance to reality warping" is in no way a premise that proves the conclusion that " their resistance is now better than Yaldy's reality warping".

That conclusion is never demonstrated, nor does the premise back it up in any way, and so the argument is a textbook non-sequitur.
 
You missed this.

Solacis said:
Seeing as the PTs were perfectly fine existing in Shibuya despite the public not having remembered them yet, I think it's pretty safe to say that they can when they were easily erased not an hour before.
Click to expand...
^^^ And since them being forgotten is the reason Yaldy's reality warping erased them from existence in the first place, them being fine obviously means they resist the resultant hax pertaining reality warping.
 
Seems Sol knows what to do. I'll leave things in your hands. I got a couple other verses that need desparate attention since no one talks about them u.u
 
Solacis said:
You missed this.
Click to expand...
^^^ And since them being forgotten is the reason Yaldy's reality warping erased them from existence in the first place, them being fine obviously means they resist the resultant hax pertaining reality warping.

Are we remembering the same scene? Because if I remember correctly, the citizens of Shibuya recognised the Phantom Thieves literally the exact moment that they stepped out of the Velvet Room.

Like I mentioned before, resistances to things like Sealing and BFR require a pretty damn large burden of proof. If the entire crux in this argument is based around them essentially literally being able to just exist in Shibuya for 2 seconds without being recognised means that therefore they have a long list of somewhat related resistances to other abilities... in the (opposite) words of Todd Howard, it just doesn't work.
 
They don't recognize the Phantom Thieves until they see Morgana's light. Remember that the reality warping requires the cognition of the general public in its entirety. If a few people were enough to overturn the cognition of the general public, then the PTs would never have been erased because Ren's confidants were totally unaffected by Yaldy's control. A few people began remembering the PTs when they leave the Velvet Room thanks to Morgana, but the general public itself doesn't start remembering them until Mishima does his little speech in Shibuya Square.

And I've already said that Sealing and BFR are things that I can't prove they have outside of their resistance to reality warping, which is the basis of a lot of Yaldy's hax. I'm fine with having said resistances removed if it really bothers people that much, but I'd prefer more input from more people until we make a decision.
 
I understand. I just think that giving the Phantom Thieves resistance to every single one of Yaldabaoth's hax based on just one debatable scene that would seem to indicate they have resistance good enough to resist just one of his hax is far too great of an assumption, and bordering on NLF. If you want to get more input from other people, however, I understand.
 
So are we sure the Sealing is an application of Reality Warping? If so then if Phenomena Interventio from Blazblue is anything to go by, if the PT are considered unaffected by Yaldy's RW completely, then all applications of it should be resisted.
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
So are we sure the Sealing is an application of Reality Warping? If so then if Phenomena Interventio from Blazblue is anything to go by, if the PT are considered unaffected by Yaldy's RW completely, then all applications of it should be resisted.
Click to expand...
Well, that's the thing. There isn't any proof they are unaffected by Yaldy's RW completely. There was just one single debatable scene which seems to depict them resisting his RW on one single occassion. And that's not even considering how heavily implied in that scene that they are able to exist due to existing in the cognitions of others again, which means it would no longer be a resistance feat at all considering how the RW works.
 
The revision I had in mind here was to remove the resistances Ren and the PT's get purely in their end-game keys related to Yaldy's hax. This includes things like Sealing and BFR.
 
What do you mean? Those resistances were only added recently. I know because I was the one who edited Futaba's and Yusuke's profiles to include them just a few days ago.
 
DarkGrath said:
Well, that's the thing. There isn't any proof they are unaffected by Yaldy's RW completely. There was just one single debatable scene which seems to depict them resisting his RW on one single occassion. And that's not even considering how heavily implied in that scene that they are able to exist due to existing in the cognitions of others again, which means it would no longer be a resistance feat at all considering how the RW works.
Click to expand...
It's not even debatable. Yaldabaoth flat-out says that because the general public forgot about the Phantom Thieves, they were erased from existence.

"Mementos and reality have become one. Those that do not exist in cognition, cannot exist anywhere." - Yaldabaoth

It's also not implied at all that they were able to exist because people remembered them. No-one remembered them until Morgana started shining, and the general public didn't remember them until their logo showed up in Shibuya Square and they saw them fighting Yaldabaoth.

Yaldabaoth's cognition-based reality warping relies on the cognition of the general public, not Ren's few confidants, not the handful of people that believed in the PTs (like the two randos who would cheer for the PTs if Mishima wasn't maxed), and certainly not the dozen or so people that saw Morgana's light before the PTs climbed Qlipoth World.

As such, it is absolute fact that they were resisting Yaldabaoth's EE, and by extension, his Reality Warping.

The only point of debate here is whether or not Sealing and BFR are applications of said reality warping, or just separate hax. If they are, then the resistances stay. If they aren't, then they're removed. That's all there is to it.
 
Alright, let's go with that then. You've made a reasonable argument on that front, so I'm willing to relent on my previous point. Still that does brings up the question; where's the proof that Sealing and BFR are apart of his reality warping? He has plenty of hax related to reality warping. He also has plenty of hax completely unrelated to reality warping. And since stating that it is apart of reality warping is the positive assertion in this argument, proof needs to be provided for the argument to be considered valid. And currently, there isn't any. So regardless of all the other arguments, if there isn't any proof provided the entire point is invalid and as such Sealing and BFR would need to be removed.
 
I'm gonna agree with Solacis on this one. All of Yaldys attacks are due to its nature as the treasure of mementos and ruler of the Prison of Regression, born and fueled by the cognitions of the masses. Palace rulers control cognition in thier places (mementos and mementos fused tokyo) -> these cognitions are rendered real -> reality warping. HG turned gold and executed those feats because the masses wanted the intruders (those who refused to enter the cells) and those who would harm the Grail gone (Shadows will yell during the HG fight "Stop it. Stop it." "Don't touch the Holy Grail" "Get out of here"). Those cognitions became real (via "Will of the People" skill after the shadow hecklers)-> reality warping -> BFR and Sealing the PTs from harming the Grail. Therefore the resistances should stay imo since they were a result of what the public wanted, executed via reality warping.
 
Just finished with Makoto Yuki, Aigis, Mitsuru, Junpei, Koromaru, Elizabeth, Nyx Avatar and Yu Narukami. Taking a break now.
 
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