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Massive Persona Almost-Verse-Wide Revisions PART 2
- Thread starter Solacis
- Start date
ShinyMagicalGirl
She/Her- 1,189
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Are there any more pages that need to be added with the new tiers and abilties?
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Yeah, me and Grath mainly just rushed through fixing the tiers. I'm not familiar enough with the content standards, so I didn't try to add too much.
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((From Previous thread ))
...Did you even read the thread?
Makoto was able to canonically defeat Elizabeth, who is stronger than both Caroline and Justine, to the point where they actively fear her. Makoto was one-shot by Nyx, repeatedly, but his Bonds let him hold on for long enough to use the great seal.
This means that a Low 2-C Makoto was one-shot multiple times over and over. And not only that, but he could not even damage Nyx while she repeatedly one-shot him.
Them fearing her is not evidence of anything as I stated before in a previous post. Social relations, like how the twins fear their elder sisters' responses or how all attendants answer to Igor are not indicative of power. It is notable that while Theodore (FemC attendant) should scale to Elizabeth exactly, he is treated poorly by his elder sisters and is submissive towards them. An outside example would be how Madara from Naruto notably fears his rival Hashirama despite Madara notably outclassing him entirly in his current form. The twins fear Elizabeth because shes their big sis.
Its is likely true that Elizabeth = Margaret > Twins but an uncertian level and definatly not stomp level, at least during Elizabeths time as an attendant base game (there is contradictory info as to who is stronger between Eliz and Marg as far as I know). Also the twins don't scale directly to Endgame Joker (right before Sataneal) since they were soul-split, amnesia-ed and sealed by Yald alongside the entire velvet room (likely including Margaret, but not Elizabeth).
...Did you even read the thread?
Makoto was able to canonically defeat Elizabeth, who is stronger than both Caroline and Justine, to the point where they actively fear her. Makoto was one-shot by Nyx, repeatedly, but his Bonds let him hold on for long enough to use the great seal.
This means that a Low 2-C Makoto was one-shot multiple times over and over. And not only that, but he could not even damage Nyx while she repeatedly one-shot him.
Them fearing her is not evidence of anything as I stated before in a previous post. Social relations, like how the twins fear their elder sisters' responses or how all attendants answer to Igor are not indicative of power. It is notable that while Theodore (FemC attendant) should scale to Elizabeth exactly, he is treated poorly by his elder sisters and is submissive towards them. An outside example would be how Madara from Naruto notably fears his rival Hashirama despite Madara notably outclassing him entirly in his current form. The twins fear Elizabeth because shes their big sis.
Its is likely true that Elizabeth = Margaret > Twins but an uncertian level and definatly not stomp level, at least during Elizabeths time as an attendant base game (there is contradictory info as to who is stronger between Eliz and Marg as far as I know). Also the twins don't scale directly to Endgame Joker (right before Sataneal) since they were soul-split, amnesia-ed and sealed by Yald alongside the entire velvet room (likely including Margaret, but not Elizabeth).
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Off-Topic:
After seeing 2-C doggo I had a funny thought. Imagine if Dojima and Nanako were put into P4A like the developers originally suggested. Scaling off other characters we would get 2-C Dojima with Nanako as his "persona". ~ Every Day Young Life, June-Su ~ with 2-C power
On-Topic:
Aigis and Labrys should likely be given Inorganic Physiology (Type 1; since they posses a soul by defination due to being affected by personas)
Edit: Although Aigis is affected by Poisma, as far as I know, and you can buy antidotes for it at the normal pharmacy. No resistance to poison from this.
After seeing 2-C doggo I had a funny thought. Imagine if Dojima and Nanako were put into P4A like the developers originally suggested. Scaling off other characters we would get 2-C Dojima with Nanako as his "persona". ~ Every Day Young Life, June-Su ~ with 2-C power
On-Topic:
Aigis and Labrys should likely be given Inorganic Physiology (Type 1; since they posses a soul by defination due to being affected by personas)
Edit: Although Aigis is affected by Poisma, as far as I know, and you can buy antidotes for it at the normal pharmacy. No resistance to poison from this.
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Well, Solacis did state that the scaling chain he made was only a rough estimation.
Also, while I don't intend to stife discussion by saying this, I think any more major additions/revisions should be left until Sera makes her blog. That's not to say we can't discuss anything further, nor does it mean we aren't allowed to hold our opinions on the topic. However, it is undeniable that Sera knows what she is talking about, and she'll definitely help spread light on the more complicated topics throughout the series. Anything major we add or revise now easily has the potential to be removed or altered later. It'd just be a waste of effort to do so.
Also, while I don't intend to stife discussion by saying this, I think any more major additions/revisions should be left until Sera makes her blog. That's not to say we can't discuss anything further, nor does it mean we aren't allowed to hold our opinions on the topic. However, it is undeniable that Sera knows what she is talking about, and she'll definitely help spread light on the more complicated topics throughout the series. Anything major we add or revise now easily has the potential to be removed or altered later. It'd just be a waste of effort to do so.
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So what are your thoughts on this thread Sera?Sera EX said:
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2289762?useskin=oasis
Not only this would upgrade Persona 2 to 2-B but possibly Persona 5 as well. I want your opinion if that thread creator's argument is valid or not. The guy who disagreed doesn't seem to be knowledgeable in Persona either while the other one seems to dismiss it without giving his reason. You didn't seem to give much opinion on that thread but I'm going to ask your current thoughts now.
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Lol. I know you're not asking for my opinion Ranzuki but I can't stay silent on this since no one addressed it in the original thread. I don't really understand what the OP of that thread was thinking since it is so full of holes. I might be wrong on this tbh, might need Sera's call on this like you asked for but:
1/ The potential/spark/seed to create a universe =/= a new universe or the power of one.
2/ The number of people that ever lived =/= the total value of the sea of souls. Concepts such as reincarnation or reuse of "soul material" are possible. We lack understanding to justify this. Makoto's universe arcana and P5 confidants were both essentially said to contain infinte power as well with no basis.
3/ Why would you include fusion spells in a character bio since they can't be used alone, as far as I know (unlike P3MC)? For example all-out-attacks aren't included in P3-P5 bios.
4/ Black hole feats need to be proven under this: Black Hole Feats in Fictio. I don't have access to any footage of the Black Hole fusion spell to gauge this.
5/ One-hit-kill is not an ability (someone stated this previously)
Sorry for jumping in like this but I couldn't resist. I am not trying to detract your request for Sera's opinion
1/ The potential/spark/seed to create a universe =/= a new universe or the power of one.
2/ The number of people that ever lived =/= the total value of the sea of souls. Concepts such as reincarnation or reuse of "soul material" are possible. We lack understanding to justify this. Makoto's universe arcana and P5 confidants were both essentially said to contain infinte power as well with no basis.
3/ Why would you include fusion spells in a character bio since they can't be used alone, as far as I know (unlike P3MC)? For example all-out-attacks aren't included in P3-P5 bios.
4/ Black hole feats need to be proven under this: Black Hole Feats in Fictio. I don't have access to any footage of the Black Hole fusion spell to gauge this.
5/ One-hit-kill is not an ability (someone stated this previously)
Sorry for jumping in like this but I couldn't resist. I am not trying to detract your request for Sera's opinion
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On-Topic:
Aigis and Labrys should likely be given Inorganic Physiology (Type 1; since they posses a soul by defination due to being affected by personas)
Edit: Although Aigis is affected by Poisma, as far as I know, and you can buy antidotes for it at the normal pharmacy. No resistance to poison from this.
I blame this to game mechanics, in the animation Aigis is inmune to poison and in the videogame you can purge her of any negative status activating Orgia Mode
Aigis and Labrys should likely be given Inorganic Physiology (Type 1; since they posses a soul by defination due to being affected by personas)
Edit: Although Aigis is affected by Poisma, as far as I know, and you can buy antidotes for it at the normal pharmacy. No resistance to poison from this.
I blame this to game mechanics, in the animation Aigis is inmune to poison and in the videogame you can purge her of any negative status activating Orgia Mode
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- Thread starter
- #13
Since Sera pointed out that there are flaws in the scaling chain I made, and since I trust what she has to say regarding Persona, could anyone help out in finding said flaws?
For easy reference:
Persona 5: Satanael Joker >>>>> God of Control >>> Post-Qlipoth Phantom Thieves > Holy Grail >> Lavenza >/= Caroline and Justine >> Pre-Qlipoth Joker and Phantom Thieves >>> Baseline Low 2-C.
Persona 3: True Nyx >>>>> Makoto Yuki w/ The Universe >= Nyx Avatar >> End-Game SEES = Erebus = Late-Game Makoto Yuki >/= Elizabeth > Lavenza >>> Pre-Qlipoth Joker and Phantom Thieves >>> Baseline Low 2-C.
Persona 4 Arena: P4A Elizabeth >>> End-Game Investigation Team = Shadow Operatives > End-Game SEES >/= P3 Elizabeth > Lavenza >>> Pre-Qlipoth Joker and Phantom Thieves >>> Baseline Low 2-C.
Persona 4 Arena Ultimax: Post-Ultimax Labrys > Hi-no-Kagutsuchi > Post-Ultimax Yu Narukami = Post-Ultimax Tohru Adachi > Sho Minazuki = End-Game Investigation Team = Shadow Operatives > End-Game SEES >/= P3 Elizabeth > Lavenza >>> Pre-Qlipoth Joker and Phantom Thieves >>> Baseline Low 2-C.
Persona 4: Yu Narukami w/ Izanagi-no-Okami >> Izanami-no-Okami > Izanami > End-Game Investigation Team = Shadow Operatives > End-Game SEES >/= P3 Elizabeth > Lavenza >>> Pre-Qlipoth Joker and Phantom Thieves >>> Baseline Low 2-C.
I suppose it could be argued that Lavenza could have taken on the Holy Grail, but not God of Control. But that would just serve to buff everyone aside from the Phantom Thieves, and I get the feeling that isn't what Sera meant.
I guess it could also be argued that Makoto could have handled Nyx Avatar by himself, and the rest of SEES only barely assisted, which would nerf the Shadow Operatives and the end-game Investigation Team, but also explain why Elizabeth can still wreck them with relative ease in the Arena games without having to assume that she somehow grew stronger between P3 and Arena. This also keeps Elizabeth weaker than Margaret, since if I remember right, her statement that she'd never won against Margaret was made in P4AU.
Any ideas?
For easy reference:
Persona 5: Satanael Joker >>>>> God of Control >>> Post-Qlipoth Phantom Thieves > Holy Grail >> Lavenza >/= Caroline and Justine >> Pre-Qlipoth Joker and Phantom Thieves >>> Baseline Low 2-C.
Persona 3: True Nyx >>>>> Makoto Yuki w/ The Universe >= Nyx Avatar >> End-Game SEES = Erebus = Late-Game Makoto Yuki >/= Elizabeth > Lavenza >>> Pre-Qlipoth Joker and Phantom Thieves >>> Baseline Low 2-C.
Persona 4 Arena: P4A Elizabeth >>> End-Game Investigation Team = Shadow Operatives > End-Game SEES >/= P3 Elizabeth > Lavenza >>> Pre-Qlipoth Joker and Phantom Thieves >>> Baseline Low 2-C.
Persona 4 Arena Ultimax: Post-Ultimax Labrys > Hi-no-Kagutsuchi > Post-Ultimax Yu Narukami = Post-Ultimax Tohru Adachi > Sho Minazuki = End-Game Investigation Team = Shadow Operatives > End-Game SEES >/= P3 Elizabeth > Lavenza >>> Pre-Qlipoth Joker and Phantom Thieves >>> Baseline Low 2-C.
Persona 4: Yu Narukami w/ Izanagi-no-Okami >> Izanami-no-Okami > Izanami > End-Game Investigation Team = Shadow Operatives > End-Game SEES >/= P3 Elizabeth > Lavenza >>> Pre-Qlipoth Joker and Phantom Thieves >>> Baseline Low 2-C.
I suppose it could be argued that Lavenza could have taken on the Holy Grail, but not God of Control. But that would just serve to buff everyone aside from the Phantom Thieves, and I get the feeling that isn't what Sera meant.
I guess it could also be argued that Makoto could have handled Nyx Avatar by himself, and the rest of SEES only barely assisted, which would nerf the Shadow Operatives and the end-game Investigation Team, but also explain why Elizabeth can still wreck them with relative ease in the Arena games without having to assume that she somehow grew stronger between P3 and Arena. This also keeps Elizabeth weaker than Margaret, since if I remember right, her statement that she'd never won against Margaret was made in P4AU.
Any ideas?
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What should the tiering be?
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Nono, I don't believe that is what Sera was saying (it definitely wasn't what I was saying, at least). Low 2-C seems to have more than enough justification at this point. I think she was referring to how characters like Late Game Joker are considered several magnitudes above Low 2-C, when there isn't any evidence to suggest they should be that far beyond baseline.Antvasima said:
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- Thread starter
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I think what I was thinking was that the PTs were still able to damage the Holy Grail pre-Qlipoth, even if they were hax-stomped the instant it bothered to try. Since the HG performed the baseline Low 2-C feat so casually, I figured the PTs being able to damage it made them at least somewhat above baseline. Although I admit that I probably overdid the number of magnitudes.
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Yeah, I mostly agree with Sera. I still think the fact that they could reasonably survive against its AP means that they should be relatively comparable, but the Holy Grail is still definitely far stronger.
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- Thread starter
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If you want to, go ahead. Just let me know which ones you'll be handling and refer to the template on my blog.
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Just a quick question, actually. Would Futaba still recieve things like "Expert Melee and Ranged Combatant"? It makes sense that she'd scale to the other Phantom Thieves, but she never really demonstrates any such abilities throughout the game due to mainly being support. Should it still be added? I'll add it in the event that there is no objection.
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Seeing as they have access to their respective Wild Card's compendium, and seeing as Elizabeth has access to Thanatos (presumably because of having said compendium), they'd be more or less the same as their Wild Cards in terms of abilities, save some exceptions like Lavenza definitely not getting Joker's resistance to Yaldy's reality warping.
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