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Massive Legend of Zelda downgrades

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Firestorm808 said:
Phantom Hourglass Cannons
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The Prima guide is wrong, we see in the game itself that it fires bombs, the video used for the calc shows bombs being used to sink those icebergs, the game should take priority over the guide. Also I'm with Warren, how did you come to the conclusion that Calamity Ganon should only be second to Demise?


Antvasima said:
Could Majora be one of those characters that have separate creation and physical attack potency statistics? It would make it much less of an outlier for Link to have defeated him.
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Considering that Link can withstand Majoras magical attacks and Majoras magic is what they use for their creation feats then Links durability scales to the creation attack potency, Majora can also harm Link with physical attacks so ultimately Majora would have similar creation and physical attack potency. Also less of an outlier? Link beating him was never even slightly an outlier in the first place since he gets a massive power up before his battle with Majora.

Edit: Damnit, I got ninja'd by like 5 seconds.
 
Warren_Valion said:
No more scaling all bombs to PH's bombs:
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I now agree with it thanks to what Cal said but that should be on profiles. People wouldn't know that on their own, they would just think "this is wank".
Warren_Valion said:
No more 5-A Calamity Ganon/scaling:
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I agree to remove it too.
Warren_Valion said:
No more Tier 2/3 Majora/scaling
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I agree that it's wrong. If it needs to be one thing at a time then I first disagree with its first feat.
 
Even if we say that they’re cannonballs instead of bombs with the guide, the same guide says that pirates can tank them, and they’re mini boss level at best.
 
The_real_cal_howard said:
Even if we say that they’re cannonballs instead of bombs with the guide, the same guide says that pirates can tank them, and they’re mini boss level at best.
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Didn't know that, it changes things up. Them taking up the same item should be game mechanics.
 
Dust_Collector said:
Considering that Link can withstand Majoras magical attacks and Majoras magic is what they use for their creation feats then Links durability scales to the creation attack potency, Majora can also harm Link with physical attacks so ultimately Majora would have similar creation and physical attack potency. Also less of an outlier? Link beating him was never even slightly an outlier in the first place since he gets a massive power up before his battle with Majora.
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I don't think It works like that. In other verses, such as The Witcher, we have different atmospheric and creation magic feats done by mages, but we don't scale that to their magic attacks that other characters can withstand.
You need something to say It scales, even if the source of magic is the same.
 
There's a lot of inconsistencies about whether or not Majora actually created Termina. If he gave birth to Termina, then he's undoubtably Low 2-C. The Creation being an AP feat is especially true for Tier 2 and above feats. Although, shaping an already existing universe or corrupting it is a range/hax feat rather than AP. As for Majora's Mask destroying Termina, I think it was agreed that he's simply destroying the planet in which they reside on with the Moon; otherwise, the 4 Giants would scale. But Majora only uses a fraction of his power. Also, it is said that Majora toys with Link; he's like the Mr Mxyzptlk of Zelda. The only time Link actually does match Majora is with the Fierce Diety Mask. And it pretty much ceases to exist shortly after FD Link beats him. If he created Termina, it's definately an AP feat. Though, Zelda Universe says the Golden Goddesses created Termina.

Also, if you pause a Youtube video of the cannons in PH launching bombs, they actually look just like regular bombs. And the Smoke it generates is the same explosion animation of the in game bombs. So I think Cannonballs was just an alternate nickname for those bombs.
 
Ok for the bombs.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
As for Majora's Mask destroying Termina, I think it was agreed that he's simply destroying the planet in which they reside on with the Moon
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It should go without saying but if we agree that Termina can go as in/refer to the planet in it in this context it would be pretty odd if we simultaneously don't accept the same happening in other contexts.
 
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I agree with Eficiente. If we consider it as a universe in the others cases, deciding it's the planet for this specific instance doesn't make much sense. Also it's not really the usual "moon will hit Earth" feat (alternate reality inside and suchlike).
 
I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion. Alternately, a staff member can use the @Username notification system.
 
@Eficiente I didn't say the dimension of Termina was only a planet; it's obviously a universe. I only meant that the moon crashing attack is a planet level attack at best. Hence why the 4 Giants are not Universal.
 
YuriAkuto said:
"I absolutely 100% agree that Termina is a parallel universe to Hyrule's - the number of statements stating this is staggering and you would have to be blind to not see this. Although I think the wording is still a little too vague, I would be fine with universe+ range and corruption. My only problem is 3-A to Low 2-C AP. I do not support this notion for the reasons I have made clear in the previous posts. High 4-C Majora, however, is solid."

So you agree that Termina is a parallel universe, but Majora somehow isn't 3-A or Low 2-C? I mean even if you exclude the "Majora created it" and suchlike from guidebooks; the whole point of the game is that he'll destroy Termina if you don't stop him (with the famous game over showing that he actually can do it). It's like the most direct feat of AP possible.

Btw I agree with Ganon downgrade actually.
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I never excluded the "Majora created it" from guidebooks (only 1 actually), I explained how the context of that quote implied that what he created (transformed is the correct term), is the people, culture, and buildings of the land of Termina - not the entire universe.

And what? No, Majora is only destroying the planet that the land of Termina is on, which is located in a parallel reality to the Light World. Why would a moon hitting a planet blow up the entire universe? That's hilarious.

That makes no sense - and nothing implies what you are saying.

Just because the planet is destroyed, or at the very least has a monumental cataclysmic effect on the planet, doesn't mean he is blowing up the universe. Where are you getting this?

Don't just take the word Termina, and always imply a universal connotation. Context is so ******* important here, and you sir, lack it - with this statement. Termina only has a universal connotation when being compared to other universes, as an alternate reality.

It also has connotation as either the planet or just the kingdom that the game takes place in, like Hyrule does.
 
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Also, could other people step up and update the tally?

I am kinda swamped with college stuff, and I don't want to spend my free time counting up who's thoughts are for what.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
@Eficiente I didn't say the dimension of Termina was only a planet; it's obviously a universe. I only meant that the moon crashing attack is a planet level attack at best. Hence why the 4 Giants are not Universal.
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I didn't say you said it, I said "if we agree that Termina can go as in/refer to the planet in it in this context". Termina is a universe, yes, but the Moon was going to destroy Termina and know that they meant the planet in that context. Am I wrong?
 
The context for the term Termina when the moon is coming towards the planet is without a doubt means the planet, or at the very least the kingdom.

Implying that it is a universe, which you are not doing I am just speaking in general, is absurd.

So no, you aren't wrong.
 
I know I'm not, it's not what I was trying to imply, I'm interested in the implications that leads us to.
 
Dust_Collector said:
The Prima guide is wrong, we see in the game itself that it fires bombs, the video used for the calc shows bombs being used to sink those icebergs, the game should take priority over the guide.
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Do we have any in-game art or statements that show the Phantom Hourglass Cannon to shoot bombs?
 
Not that I know of. I was gonna say that you just need to look at the gameplay clip linked in the calc, but after taking a closer look at it I honestly can't even tell if the cannon is actually firing bombs, but they so seem to have the same blue colour and I think the same explosion animation so for now I'll still disagree with the OP regarding this.
 
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Warren_Valion said:
Also, could other people step up and update the tally?

I am kinda swamped with college stuff, and I don't want to spend my free time counting up who's thoughts are for what.
Click to expand...
No more scaling all bombs to PH's bombs:

No more 4-A Wind Fish/scaling:

No more 5-A Calamity Ganon/scaling:
No more High 4-C Zant/scaling:
  • Agree: Who doesn't?
  • Disagree: But nobody came
  • Ambivalent: Bruh

No more Tier 2/3 Majora/scaling:

Anyone feel free to correct me if I misplaced you or forgot to add you. I didn't know where to place Firestorm in regards to Calamity Ganon, he didn't really give a solid answer about it in his verdict.
 
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I am neutral on removing 5-A calamity Ganon, it's kind of vague that he is moving the moon specifically or that he is just tainting the sky under his peak of power.
I Agree on removing the High 7-A bombs, bombs haven't been the same throughout the series and I personally think at the very max only Phantom Hourglass Link should scale
 
I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die said:
I am neutral on removing 5-A calamity Ganon, it's kind of vague that he is moving the moon specifically or that he is just tainting the sky under his peak of power.
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How is it vague when the NPC that is knowledgeable of the Blood Moon, and the official guide only says that he is painting the sky red in his energy, and there are no mentions of the moon at all?
 
@Dust_Collector

Thanks, bro, you're a homie.


Anyway, when can we consider an argument accepted? Like personally, I would consider the Calamity Ganon stuff agreed on because it has a seven-person difference (comprised up of both regular members and staff), but I don't know.

Does anyone know?


@00potato

I don't think that's what they were going for, I googled 'Sysop' and, from what I could tell, it stands for System Operator - which is an administrator of a multi-user computer system like an online service virtual community, like VS Battle Wiki.

Gotta say, just Administrator looks better imo.
 
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The only argument so far I can say for certain to be accepted is the Zant stuff, it'll take a miracle to turn people around on that, but I have no idea if the gap between those who agree with downgrading Calamity Ganon and those who disagree is enough despite how noticeable it is. I don't think a little more discussion about it would hurt, but we really need to start discussing the Wind Fish more since that's an even split.
 
Dust_Collector said:
The only argument so far I can say for certain to be accepted is the Zant stuff, it'll take a miracle to turn people around on that, but I have no idea if the gap between those who agree with downgrading Calamity Ganon and those who disagree is enough despite how noticeable it is. I don't think a little more discussion about it would hurt, but we really need to start discussing the Wind Fish more since that's an even split.
Click to expand...
I guess the Majora and Calamity stuff can get a little more discussion before being accepted or denied.

But yeah, the Wind Fish is dead even.

Seems more prudent to talk about that.
 
My opinion on Majora hasn't changed. The fact he effected all time space and the heavens (outer space makes the most sense for the context) implies control over the Universe. The fact Termina is destroyed after his death and Link leaving implies he held it together, and we know Link temporarily did, which further backs up that Majora is the reason it is maintained, which in and of itself is Low 2-C to maintain the existence of a Universe. If he created it of course that is to, but maintaining it and controlling time space and the heavens is enough on its own imo. Also having a piece of the tri-force is the best explanation as to why Link could sustain the Universe temporarily as well, even if it is a high end feat for him, obviously his kid form normally shouldn't scale to Majora though since he needed FD Mask to win.

Anyway, I stand by the fact he should at least have a likely or possibly low 2-C, since it is a significant possibility depending how you interpret the current statements, and it would be dishonest to ignore that on his profile.
 
SSJRyu1 said:
My opinion on Majora hasn't changed. The fact he effected all time space and the heavens (outer space makes the most sense for the context) implies control over the Universe. The fact Termina is destroyed after his death and Link leaving implies he held it together, and we know Link temporarily did, which further backs up that Majora is the reason it is maintained, which in and of itself is Low 2-C to maintain the existence of a Universe. If he created it of course that is to, but maintaining it and controlling time space and the heavens is enough on its own imo. Also having a piece of the tri-force is the best explanation as to why Link could sustain the Universe temporarily as well, even if it is a high end feat for him, obviously his kid form normally shouldn't scale to Majora though since he needed FD Mask to win.

Anyway, I stand by the fact he should at least have a likely or possibly low 2-C, since it is a significant possibility depending how you interpret the current statements, and it would be dishonest to ignore that on his profile.
Click to expand...
No, the "heavens" in the context of Majora's Mask are the Four Giants, and likely the space they inhabit when you free them, who are guardian deities in the land of Termina as informed to us by Anju's Grandmother, not outer space (where would you even get outer space from?).

And you are using a quote from a strategy guide made like 15 years prior and adding it to the Hyrule Encyclopedia quote, and then you are acting as if that quote is what gives context to the statement that Majora's Mask "transforms the world into the land of Termina" as if it was from the same guide.

The Termina that Majora "created in a new form" in the context of the Hyrule Encyclopedia quote refers to people, culture, and history, not the entire physical universe or its space-time continuum.

zeldaen-pg-36-37-1525110835492_1280w.jpg


"When the Skull Kid steals Majora's Mask from a traveling mask salesman, the combination of the Skull Kid’s burdened heart and the evil magic within Majora’s Mask transforms the world into the land of Termina. Termina is a parallel world with its own distinct culture, which is perhaps influenced by Majora’s ancient tribe. This land is also inhabited by races and individuals similar to those found in Hyrule, which were constructed from the Skull Kid's memories and delusions. While many of Hyrule's races, like Gorons and the Zora are present in Termina, the world feels twisted. Different. Full of mechanical advances and watched over by a sinister moon looming large and on course to crush it all."

^This is the quote and the context - nothing here implies 3-A to Low 2-C whatsoever.


And there is no need to say that there is an implication that Link held it Majora's fake reality together, it was stated directly that Link's purity of heart maintained the fake Termina until he left.

"While the hero’s pure heart allows the world of Termina to momentarily revel in its salvation, as soon as he departs, that world ceases to exist."

So no, it's not because Link has a piece of the Triforce, it's because he's a good person.

And even if it was, the Full Triforce doesn't even have any Low 2-C feats (It has like 1 3-A feat which isn't even accepted on this wiki), let alone each individual piece - there is no possible way having "a piece of the Triforce" is a viable explanation for the lunacy that you are suggesting.

Young Link cannot maintain a 3-A to Low 2-C structure, even for a moment, because he has the Triforce of Courage - that's insane.


The way you are "interpreting the current statements" ignores the context of those statements, which is always the most important thing when it comes to tiering. To include a "possibly" rating based on false logic from statements taken out of context would, in fact, be dishonest. So frankly, what you stand by is irrelevant.

I have explained this in detail numerous times already and I hate circular arguments, so I will stop here.
 
Firestorm808 said:
@Dust_Collector I voted to keep the Calamity Ganon Moon moving feat from my post above.
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I want to get this over with, so can you explain to me why you think that Calamity Ganon's energy is affecting the moon when none of the lore both in-game and in the guides implies this at all?


I am curious as to how you reached this conclusion despite the evidence to the contrary?
 
Omg a Zelda downgrade thread actually not being immediately rejected? What a timeline.

Anyways, I'm in agreement the OP is making a lot of sense so far. Majora and Ganon are all pretty vague with wildly different sources going back-and-forth so naturally I wouldn't wanna give a definite rating for stuff like that. I'm more open to a possibly rating at least for the Majora stuff as maybe a compromise.

As for Bombs and the 4-A I don't really care much.
 
Warren_Valion said:
I want to get this over with, so can you explain to me why you think that Calamity Ganon's energy is affecting the moon when none of the lore both in-game and in the guides implies this at all?


I am curious as to how you reached this conclusion despite the evidence to the contrary?
Click to expand...
It is implied though. If Ganon causes the blood moon, and we see the moon moving during a blood moon, then Ganon caused the moon to move. Simple as that. There's no proof against Ganon moving the moon, you're mistaking "not explicitly said" with "evidence to the contrary". Not everything is written in books, we can use the game as well. It's like saying that there are no malice particles during a blood moon just because it's not said in the guide even though it's shown in-game.
 
TriforcePower1 said:
It is implied though. If Ganon causes the blood moon, and we see the moon moving during a blood moon, then Ganon caused the moon to move. Simple as that. There's no proof against Ganon moving the moon, you're mistaking "not explicitly said" with "evidence to the contrary". Not everything is written in books, we can use the game as well. It's like saying that there are no malice particles during a blood moon just because it's not said in the guide even though it's shown in-game.
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But there is no logical reason for this to be happening and nothing supports it.

"Whenever the clock strikes midnight on unlucky nights, the sky turns blood red. That's the blood moon. When that happens, monsters come back to life, no matter how many times you've defeated them. It's happened for so long now that no one really pays it any mind, but I have no plans to give up on my research."

~Hino

It is specifically stated that the Blood Moon (or the Night of the Red Moon), by the NPC which is knowledgeable on the phenomenon, is just the sky being painted red and monsters being revived. If the moon were at all affected whatsoever, whether or not Ganon is conscious of the decision, it would almost certainly be mentioned - at least somewhere.

As the person who is making the positive claim, that Ganon's energy is moving the moon, you need to be the one to prove it. And the argument that the moon is moving during the Blood Moon only works if you take away the context of what the Blood Moon even is. It doesn't have legs to stand on whatsoever as I have explained in detail numerous times by now.

Just because something happens in the game, doesn't mean that it always applies to lore of the world or is a viable feat for the characters to use.
 
Warren_Valion said:
But there is no logical reason for this to be happening and nothing supports it.

"Whenever the clock strikes midnight on unlucky nights, the sky turns blood red. That's the blood moon. When that happens, monsters come back to life, no matter how many times you've defeated them. It's happened for so long now that no one really pays it any mind, but I have no plans to give up on my research."

~Hino

It is specifically stated that the Blood Moon (or the Night of the Red Moon), by the NPC which is knowledgeable on the phenomenon, is just the sky being painted red and monsters being revived. If the moon were at all affected whatsoever, whether or not Ganon is conscious of the decision, it would almost certainly be mentioned - at least somewhere.

As the person who is making the positive claim, that Ganon's energy is moving the moon, you need to be the one to prove it. And the argument that the moon is moving during the Blood Moon only works if you take away the context of what the Blood Moon even is. It doesn't have legs to stand on whatsoever as I have explained in detail numerous times by now.

Just because something happens in the game, doesn't mean that it always applies to lore of the world or is a viable feat for the characters to use.
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Why would the game need to tell us? The game doesn't tell us that Blood Moons cause the air to turn red, but we explicitly see that, for example. Hino is simply telling us about the most eye-catching phenomenons.

I've already proven it, though. Moon moves during a Blood Moon, Ganon causes the Blood Moon, hence Ganon causes the moon to move. Occam's razor dictates that you should prove that the most likely answer is wrong. And you have only said that there's no reason for Ganon doing it, point which is rendered moot when it's explicitly said in the guide that The Blood Moon is just a side effect of Ganon's malice bleeding out in Hyrule, aka he doesn't have conscious control over it.

"Just because something happens in the game, doesn't mean that it always applies to lore of the world or is a viable feat for the characters to use." That's not true though. We don't say that Demise's feat of creating a sun within his pocket dimension cannot be used because it's not mentioned in any guide, we don't say that any 4-A pocket reality feat is not valid because no one explicitly mentions that stars are created, we don't say that Bakugo having an 8-C feat isn't legit because no one acknowledges it. I could go on, but you get my point. Not everything needs to come from lore, we can use on-screen feats as well. Not doing so for Calamity Ganon would be a massive double-standards anyway,
 
Warren_Valion said:
I want to get this over with, so can you explain to me why you think that Calamity Ganon's energy is affecting the moon when none of the lore both in-game and in the guides implies this at all?


I am curious as to how you reached this conclusion despite the evidence to the contrary?
Click to expand...
As I said above, Calamity Ganon can cause a Panic Blood Moon to happen at any time during the day and when he exposes his core, not just at midnight.
 
TriforcePower1 said:
Why would the game need to tell us? The game doesn't tell us that Blood Moons cause the air to turn red, but we explicitly see that, for example. Hino is simply telling us about the most eye-catching phenomenons.

I've already proven it, though. Moon moves during a Blood Moon, Ganon causes the Blood Moon, hence Ganon causes the moon to move. Occam's razor dictates that you should prove that the most likely answer is wrong. And you have only said that there's no reason for Ganon doing it, point which is rendered moot when it's explicitly said in the guide that The Blood Moon is just a side effect of Ganon's malice bleeding out in Hyrule, aka he doesn't have conscious control over it.

"Just because something happens in the game, doesn't mean that it always applies to lore of the world or is a viable feat for the characters to use." That's not true though. We don't say that Demise's feat of creating a sun within his pocket dimension cannot be used because it's not mentioned in any guide, we don't say that any 4-A pocket reality feat is not valid because no one explicitly mentions that stars are created, we don't say that Bakugo having an 8-C feat isn't legit because no one acknowledges it. I could go on, but you get my point. Not everything needs to come from lore, we can use on-screen feats as well. Not doing so for Calamity Ganon would be a massive double-standards anyway,
Click to expand...
But it does, what do you think "painting the sky red" is? The surrounding environment that Ganon's energy is touching is painted the color red by his malice leaking out of the castle, which includes the air - obviously. What even is this rebuttal?

And are you seriously trying to tell me that the moon looking as if it is getting closer to the planet isn't one of the most "eye-catching phenomenons" of the Blood Moon? That no one would even mention it, like at all, if it was a real thing that's happening in the world?

And you haven't proven anything, and no, you are incorrect, I didn't only say that "there is no reason for Ganon doing it".

I said there is no reason for the moon to be moved by Ganon AND that there is no proof in the lore, in both the game or in guides that detail specific events like the Night of the Red Moon, that he is affecting the moon with his energy.


What? This is a very true statement, game mechanics are a thing.

For instance, Link, despite having the Golden Gauntlets which makes him easily able to lift 100x his normal physical strength, still struggles to push the same blocks that he pushed as a child at the same speed. Or the cooldown time for Thu'ums in Skyrim. Or how Mario dies to Goombas despite surviving the inside of a Black Hole. Or how Cloud in the FF7R can flash-step and jump 50 feet in the air, when he can't do that in the game. I can go all day with examples.

This disconnect is called Ludonarrative Dissonance. There is a disconnect between what happens in the story and what happens in the gameplay.

Calamity Ganon's moon moving feat is one such example as the story or lore or anything at all doesn't imply this happens at all.


And for the love of all things pure and holy, stop taking things out of context to try and prove your point. Demise, in response to Link's courage which he respects, literally creates a portal to a pocket dimension for them to fight that he either created or has total control over as shown by his actions in the fight by changing the atmosphere and weather in said world with a hand wave. That dimension possesses a sun that Demise either created or can control - that's why the feat is logically sound.

And to be honest, I do have a problem with 4-A ratings based on "starry-sky" backgrounds being too haphazardly thrown around. But that is irrelevant because these examples that you mention aren't examples of possible game mechanics. Bakugo is an anime character, ludonarrative dissonance can't apply in that medium.

I am not saying that every feat has to be written out to be valid. What I am saying is that, in video games, there is a likelihood that what happens in the gameplay is not an accurate representation of what is actually happening in the world/story of the game. And that this feat from Calamity Ganon, because of its non-sensical nature and the fact that it isn't mentioned anywhere in any source whatsoever that he is affecting the moon during the Night of the Red Moon, is one such example of this.

And I am asking you to please showcase solid reasoning to the contrary barring "it happens during the blood moon so it must be Ganon's doing" and "gameplay mechanics don't exist apparently so it's legit".


Not every feat needs to come from lore, but if the lore or story or world doesn't have any support for the feat's existence in any manner, then the legitimacy of that feat being real is very much questionable.
 
Firestorm808 said:
As I said above, Calamity Ganon can cause a Panic Blood Moon to happen at any time during the day and when he exposes his core, not just at midnight.
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This reminds me, Panic Blood Moons are indicative that aspects of the Blood Moon phenomenon are clearly game mechanics. The lore explicitly says that the Blood Moon happens at Midnight, the fact that you can force it to happen at times that aren't midnight by doing certain actions in the game or if there is something wrong with your game is proof of the disconnect that I talked about in my previous comment.

To let you know, they aren't a legitimate thing that is happening in the game, and saying that they are is like saying that Ocarina of Time Young Link can teleport to Ganondorf seven years in the future and kill him as a child with a Deku Stick. That's complete nonsense.

But that doesn't really answer my question; With the quotes and images that I have provided that explains the Blood Moon in great detail, why do you still think that Ganon is affecting the moon when nothing implies that it is actually happening?
 
Firestorm808 said:
As I said above, Calamity Ganon can cause a Panic Blood Moon to happen at any time during the day and when he exposes his core, not just at midnight.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, that's just gameplay mechanics. The game uses Blood Moons as a way to prevent memory overflow since the blood moon resets the overworld, so when Hyrule gets modified too much, the game will force a Blood Moon to happen. These Blood Moons happened to me a couple of times.
 
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