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Massive Legend of Zelda downgrades

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It's the first time I heard anyone having a problem with it, also the feat is consistent with what is shown in game (gameplay, story, characters also mentioning how fast link is moving time seems to crawl/stop) plus new age of calamity game demo (considered to be Canon) shows that this is an extremely casual thing performed by link.


As for the other things, Ganon is 100% the cause of the blood moon especially when one researcher mentioned that the blood moon wasn't even a thing until 100y ago until the calamity arrived, especially when it exudes the same energy as Ganon.

And I agree 100% with DDM.

Edit:just want to point out there's a bunch of other characters comparable to the wind fish (basically high tier/God tiers) that literally have starry skies feats but they are always magically considered outliers.
 
IIRC, I think the problem some people have with the MFTL calc is that bolts of lightning apparently descend near instantly when they appear on the screen even during a Flurry Rush and only seem stopped once they hit something, making it so lightning coming from the sky is way too fast for Link to see move even during a Flurry Rush but only the impact is slow enough from his perspective that it looks frozen.
 
AshenCrow777 said:
As for the other things, Ganon is 100% the cause of the blood moon especially when one researcher mentioned that the blood moon wasn't even a thing until 100y ago until the calamity arrived, especially when it exudes the same energy as Ganon.
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That doesn't mean that he moving the moon though, for the reason I stated above.
 
But it also dosent mean he is NOT moving the moon there's more proof of him actually affecting the moon than not.


Even then I say all Breath of the wild upgrade/downgrade/whatever should be put on hold since age of calamity is supposed to clear up a lot of things about botw and I've played the demo there's a lot of feats coming in.

So let's ignore all botw stuff
 
AshenCrow777 said:
But it also dosent mean he is NOT moving the moon there's more proof of him actually affecting the moon than not.


Even then I say all Breath of the wild upgrade/downgrade/whatever should be put on hold since age of calamity is supposed to clear up a lot of things about botw and I've played the demo there's a lot of feats coming in.

So let's ignore all botw stuff
Click to expand...
That's not how that works, the Burden of Proof is always on the positive claim. And no, there's not "more proof of him actually affecting the moon than not.". That's the entire point of the opposition, that there is nothing that proves that he is moving the moon.

And Age of Calamity should have no effect on this feat from Breath of the Wild.
 
Warren_Valion said:
How is this MFTL? Why is the highest end being used?

Ren Fuji does a similar feat (actually, it's better) and he's only FTL to FTL+ because of it.
Click to expand...
Because this feat was done by Link who just woke up 100 years from a coma and nowhere near his prime even after the end of the game (said so by zelda) and it was done extremely casually.

Age of calamity show how link was able to outrun a guardian laser (from mid to short range) get in front of zelda and casually pary it.

And the guardian fired first before Link was properly in motion.


High end feat was easily accepted.
 
This isn't a story related feat, its a gameplay one, you could do this after killing Ganon. And if even if it is "casual", that doesn't mean that Link is "easily" 3 to 10x faster than the other ends of this feat.



And Age of Calamity wasn't out, even in demo form, when this calc was made. There is also no proof that said feat from AoC is MFTL yet.


These aren't sufficient answers.
 
Warren_Valion said:
That's not how that works, the Burden of Proof is always on the positive claim. And no, there's not "more proof of him actually affecting the moon than not.". That's the entire point of the opposition, that there is nothing that proves that he is moving the moon.

And Age of Calamity should have no effect on this feat from Breath of the Wild.
Click to expand...
It's should because age of calamity is considered the CANON story written and directed by NINTENDO staff writers from the BOTW division that will explain how the calamity happened and the big man himself said IT IS CANONso yes it does affect A LOT of things.


Yes they are proof of him especially when the the energy the moon freaking exude is freaking malice the same thing calamity ganon is made off the same thing that is used to revive the minions because Ganon is using it to revive his dead soldiers.

All source points to the fact that the cause of of the blood moon is the calamity is the cause of all this and Ganon literally is the calamity.


The researcher in game literally says that the blood moon isn't a normal thing and only started when the calamity (Ganon) arrived

Before that? The moon was a normal moon.
 
Nobody doubts the blood moon is Ganons doing, you don't need to keep saying why he's the reason it happens, people just have doubts on the moon itself being moved. Like the OP argues it might just be a visual effect that makes it look closer/bigger due to the sheer amount of Malice staining the sky and moon. I personally think the moon is being moved but I'll argue that later when I have sufficient time.
 
I am not saying that AoC won't effect BotW at all, just not THIS feat from BotW. Unless it is specifically said in that game that Ganon is moving the moon with his power. But the game doesn't come out for a month, so why would we put everything on hold for something that might (and frankly isn't likely to) happen.

Warren_Valion said:
I feel like people might need a simplification about the Blood Moon.

It's NOT that Ganon isn't responsible for the Blood Moon happening or that he is unintentionally moving the moon.

It's that the idea that Ganon is moving the moon isn't supported by anything both in-game or within any outside sources like guides. The description of the Blood Moon in guides, just state that Ganon's energy leaks out of the castle, stains the sky red to make the moon appear red, and then revive all fallen monsters.

latest


There is no description of Ganon physically moving the moon, only that Ganon "stains the sky a deep red".

Which would imply that Ganon isn't actually doing anything of the sort, and that it is likely just game mechanics. The most logical reason is that the moon needs to be in a certain position to activate the Blood Moon cutscene, and so the moon is dragged into that spot when the variables that make a night a Night of the Blood Moon causes it to be so, and then brought back after the cutscene.

Whatever the case, it is not an actual recurring event in the lore of the game, and thus, can't be used as a viable feat for Calamity Ganon.


That's the argument, or at least, my argument.
Click to expand...
@AshenCrow777


Please read this, because you are clearly not understanding what I am arguing.
 
Warren_Valion said:
This isn't a story related feat, its a gameplay one, you could do this after killing Ganon. And if even if it is "casual", that doesn't mean that Link is "easily" 3 to 10x faster than the other ends of this feat.



And Age of Calamity wasn't out, even in demo form, when this calc was made. There is also no proof that said feat from AoC is MFTL yet.


These aren't sufficient answers.
Click to expand...
These are sufficient answers you just don't like them that's all. Plus the gameplay is literally integrated into the story they are not mutually exclusive.

It does not matter if age of calamity wasn't out because now that it is, it will affect a lot of stuff involving breath of the wild.

Unless you can properly disapprove these this feel like the same Loz crt circle jerk that has been going on for bloody years on both sides downgrade and upgrades.

It's annoying and ridiculous hell some even tried to argue on another thread that Loz is just continent /country level.

So I'm sorry if I don't take any of this seriously.
 
Warren_Valion said:
Please read this, because you are clearly not understanding what I am arguing.
Click to expand...
I have read it and the moon is shown to be moved when malice is affecting the world.

Again in game character specifically point out the fact that the moon moves/acts up weirdly when malice is at it's highest point.

Plus it wouldn't be the first time that Ganon used the moon to do something (see wind waker).
 
No, they are not - for the reasons that I mentioned above.

Just because a feat was "casual" (and is it even casual?) doesn't mean you take the high end of a calc. That's ridiculous.


Age of Calamity is completely irrelevant to the arguments displayed here. Stop bringing it up.

Any feats that come from Age of Calamity will be discussed and applied sometime after the game comes out - and that's all that should be said here about AoC.



And again, the Burden of Proof is on the person making the positive claim, never on the negative. You need to prove what you are saying is true.

And I am sorry if you find Zelda CRTs annoying, but I don't care about how many times such a song and dance is gone through. This is an indexing wiki, and our goal is always, always, to try and strive for the most accurate profiles possible.

If there is a discussion that brings up that one or more of our profiles are inaccurate, then it needs to be discussed and debated.
 
AshenCrow777 said:
I have read it and the moon is shown to be moved when malice is affecting the world.

Again in game character specifically point out the fact that the moon moves/acts up weirdly when malice is at it's highest point.

Plus it wouldn't be the first time that Ganon used the moon to do something (see wind waker).
Click to expand...
Except there is no proof that Ganon is moving the moon in the lore from the game or guides.

The NPC you are talking about is named Hino - this is what he says about the Blood Moon:

"I've been doing rigorous research day and night to figure out the mystery of that blood moon." — Hino

"Whenever the clock strikes midnight on unlucky nights, the sky turns blood red. That's the blood moon. When that happens, monsters come back to life, no matter how many times you've defeated them. It's happened for so long now that no one really pays it any mind, but I have no plans to give up on my research." — Hino

"Why do the monsters return to life? Why does it only happen when the sky turns red? No one really has the answers to those questions. It's a mysterious phenomenon..." — Hino

"If you learn anything about the blood moon as you travel, be sure to come back and tell me." — Hino

Hino never mentions anything about the moon coming closer, only the sky turning red, which is confirmed by the guide page that I showed.

latest


There is nothing from the in-game lore, nor the addition of lore from guides, that imply that Ganon is moving the moon. Just that he paints the sky blood red.

So where is this supposed character that, "specifically point out the fact that the moon moves/acts up weirdly when malice is at it's highest point."


I would love to see this proof.
 
All staff members:

What do you think that we should do here?
 
That would probably help, yes.
 
I have mostly same position as Cal here.

And I was part of the Zant thread and was one of the one's that argued against it, so 100% agree with downgrading it.

Regarding Majora specifically, sadly I have to agree with downgrading it too. In the original thread I supported it, but after thinking it through for some time, it doesn't make sense with the context of the game itself.
 
I agree with Warren in everything but Majora, the evidence for her being 3-A, even if it comes from guides and the like, seems pretty solid to me.
 
There are three statements of "evidence" for 3-A Majora.

Two of them are from the Nintendo Power Strategy Guide.

They are these two images:

aaaBxgj.png

Ru7CxJN.png


The problem with these two statements is that they are vague and can be interpreted in numerous different ways for one, but more importantly. that they aren't indicative of 3-A or Low 2-C Majora.


The first quote, "Everyone's personal life has taken a turn for the worse, and it is all because of the mischief spread by the Skull Kid wearing Majora's Mask and the influence his cursed guise has on the moon, heavens, space and time." is a range feat with possible space-time manipulation at best. But the context of the statement implies that the misery that Skull Kid brings is what is his influence. He is pulling down the moon, he has corrupted the gods of the world, he has perverted the four lands of Termina, and no matter how many times you go back in time, he will always be there to cause mischief unless you stop him. Nothing here implies he has absolute dominion over a 3-A or Low 2-C space.

And the second quote, "The water was once pure, but, like everything else in the parallel universe, it has become tainted by the cruel intentions of the Skull Kid wearing Majora's Mask." The worded tainted, and the action that Majora did (poisoning water) and has done to everything else in the land of Termina (or in the alternate universe) implies corruption, which is hax, not AP. The context of the statement also implies a much smaller scale than we interpret on the Skull Kid's page. What "corrupted everything in the parallel universe" is that in every point in the land of Termina, Majora has corrupted a part of the world. Poisoned the swamp, causing an endless blizzard, making the sea murky, and allowing the dead to roaming among the living. That's not a 3-A to Low 2-C feat.


The final quote comes from the Hyrule Encyclopedia. This quote, however, is also taken out of context.

zeldaen-pg-36-37-1525110835492_1280w.jpg

I mentioned this earlier, but, "Transforming the world into the land of Termina." can mean many different things. And since the context surrounding that statement talks about culture and races in the world, it goes against the implication that Majora rewrote a 3-A or Low 2-C reality. Instead, he merely created fake people, buildings, and structures with their own history (which the book comments that they could possibly be based on the culture of the tribe that formed the mask itself).


Not to mention, if we want to take this statement as proof of 3-A or Low 2-C, which is dubious, then we have to take the feat on the next page about the obvious plot hole to the logic in which Majora created everything as legitimate as well, and that's, "Why didn't it all get erased like everything else Majora's magic created did when he died?"

There answer? "While the hero’s pure heart allows the world of Termina to momentarily revel in its salvation, as soon as he departs, that world ceases to exist." This means that Young Link's (not even Fierce Deity Link) purity of heart was able to maintain the world of Termina until he left, which would be a 3-A to Low 2-C feat - which is complete non-sense.


The rest of Majora's current AP description just mentions the alternate reality that he creates inside the moon, but there is literally zero evidence to imply it is a universal space, the most you can get out of that feat is High 4-C.


So in conclusion,

  • The statements are vague and are open to interpretation
  • The first statement would be a range feat with possible space-time manipulation at best, but the context implies a smaller scale than what we have currently on the profiles.
  • The second statement is corruption, which is hax and not AP, and thus, not applicable - besides, the context implies a smaller scale than what we have currently on the profiles.
  • The third statement is taken out of context, and only refers to Majora's "transforming the world" as creating cultures, people, history, and structures - not the entire universe
  • There is no evidence to support that Majora's moon dimension is universal whatsoever, it is High 4-C at best.
  • Finally, Context really matters.
 
Thank you for taking the time to help out.
 
Seems like those calcs are a bit inflated by the standards of our site. They used 120 j/cc for the destruction caused by the bombs, considering that it looks like standard fragmentation with how large and noticable the chunks are when the boulder/wall are blown up we use 8 j/cc for that type of stuff.
 
I can move that example to blog, but it's an extremely simple error to fix. Just divide both ends by 15 and the new calcs are City block level+ to Multi-City Block level respectively.

Also, I held off because I was exhausted IRL, but I'm off work today. But will come back to elaborate a lot of points. Including the new stuff; I also have problems with the Flurry Rush calc and glad it was brought up.
 
Thank you for helping out.
 
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