Masadaverse Discussion Thread 23

[Infera28]

Question, is Trifa's Longinus also 1-A? If yes, shouldn't he has that in his AP key?

I don't think so.
Everything that Trifa has that comes from Reinhard is a water-downed version of it, imo.

Trifa's shell begins cracking in a few hits to Machina's punches, yet the same Machina said that his only weapon is as good as trash against Reinhard.

And not to mention, Reinhard was sealed and suppressed by the Swastikas at this point and that means that the Longinus is mega nerfed - so it would make sense from Trifa's Longius to be nerfed as well.

It's still strong though.

Valeria's Longinus still damaged Marie who is 1-A and stabbed her all way to Twilight Beach which has lack concept of time and arguably exists beyond foreknowledge's law and in singularity. that should be 1-A

and Machina said that but yet he two shotted Valeria Trifa who has same body as Reinahard. Machina's biggest weapon being as good as trash against Reinhard doesn't mean as Reinhard is capable of tanking that. that can have multiple diffrent meanings such as Reinhard being capable of killing him before receiving any hit. entire of Gladsheim's souls + Gladshiem and Isaak helping Reinhard. Reinhard can use NFW Briah and counters Machina's fists + many other ways for defeating Machina. Meth wasn't able to surviving Machina's hits too but yet countered entire of his power set.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Considering it is pointed out that Machina's fists could harm the divine vessel, his resistance to EE has always been a little odd to me.

 

[PsychoWarper]

I mean since souls are obviously so important in Masada I feel like him being able to tank it has more to do with Reinhards soul in his body then just simply his body (Not saying his body is weak just its obviously much stronger with his soul and soul count within it).

 

[Infera28]

Reinhard has resistance to EE cuz Valeria once survived Machina's fist (fist only crushed his hand) but second fist killed Valeria

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Did he?

Didn't he just instantly die? Like very directly and specifically instantly die?

 

[PsychoWarper]

I thought Machinas statement also had something to do with that but I guess that makes sense.

Also as I said just because Valeria has Reins body doesnt mean he resists everything the same due to a lower soul count, weaker soul armor and just overall a far weaker soul that doesnt have the backing of Merc.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

"Futile. Surely you know this. There is nothing I cannot break" [Machina]

The vessel that boasted of complete and thorough invincibility was not beginning to creak. Though he protected himself by crossing his arms, the fact that it damaged him was undeniable.

....

Trifa was being pumeled into his demise, unable to do anything to stop it.

...

One blow after the other, the iron Nigredo continued punching Trifa. Every hit seemed to shave something away from him - make him break, shatter and gradually disappear.

...

"The other secret is his armour..." Eleonore revealed the Divine Vessel's greatest mysteries in a completely nonchalant manner, like it was the most obvious thing in the world.

"And by 'armour'. I mean the Legion of Valhalla whirling within him - the density of an unreasonable number of souls guarding his being. Do you understand? That is the body of our esteemed Lord Heydrich"

It's got the entire legion of Valhalla in it.

 

[Infera28]

Did he?
Didn't he just instantly die? Like very directly and specifically instantly die?

yes

 

[Infera28]

I thought Machinas statement also had something to do with that but I guess that makes sense.
Also as I said just because Valeria has Reins body doesnt mean he resists everything the same due to a lower soul count, weaker soul armor and just overall a far weaker soul that doesnt have the backing of Merc.

Valeria Trifa had same souls as Reinhard. that's why his soul armor was as unbreakable as Reinhard's

 

[Mizarle]

Does it have something to do with Reinhard's soul itself? About resistance I mean

 

[Dysmity]

Does it have something to do with Reinhard's soul itself? About resistance I mean

You could make a case for that. Masada also stated Machina killing Rein with his fists are quite nil

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

This is prior to activating his Briah. He's quite able to damage the vessel.

Again, prior to activating his Briah, he's still shaving away at the vessel.

Machina was never trying to destroy the body, he was just trying to get rid of Trifa.

Then he activates his Briah.

This is directly after the fist hits. He easily destroys the fist, but he's not targeting the body, he's targeting the souls that give Trifa control over the body, which are immediately destroyed..

Machina's fist broke through the chest easily, and only hit Trifa's soul. Again, the soul is destroyed instantly.

Conclusion: Machina's fists were quite capable of damaging and breaking through through Divine Vessel here, but he wasn't targeting the vessel, he was targeting Trifa.

 

[Dysmity]

Speaking of Machina, isn't he capable of circumventing the weakness of his opponent having no history by touching them, effectively creating a history of which he then can erase by punching them again? IIRC this was against Ren's in Marie route where it's stated that the second punch of Machina would be deadly to him as the first punch basically resulted in the formation of a history

Ren : Zero History > Machina punches > Ren now has a history which is being punched > Machina second punch would have killed him

At least, that's what i remember from the route. Correct me if i am wrong

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I don't think that's any special power of Machina's. It's simply that if Ren's history had moved forward from 0, he would have been vulnerable - but because he had frozen his time, his history never moved beyond zero.

 

[Infera28]

This is prior to activating his Briah. He's quite able to damage the vessel.Again, prior to activating his Briah, he's still shaving away at the vessel.
Machina was never trying to destroy the body, he was just trying to get rid of Trifa.

Then he activates his Briah.

This is directly after the fist hits. He easily destroys the fist, but he's not targeting the body, he's targeting the souls that give Trifa control over the body, which are immediately destroyed..

Machina's fist broke through the chest easily, and only hit Trifa's soul. Again, the soul is destroyed instantly.

Conclusion: Machina's fists were quite capable of damaging and breaking through through Divine Vessel here, but he wasn't targeting the vessel, he was targeting Trifa.

seems legit but seeing Machina erases in one touch and Divine Vessel survived touching, that isn't EE resistance? his target was armor but still it touched and crushed Reinhard's fist and chest too. yet it only destroyed Valeria's soul.

 

[Dysmity]

I don't think that's any special power of Machina's. It's simply that if Ren's history had moved forward from 0, he would have been vulnerable - but because he had frozen his time, his history never moved beyond zero.

Was a bit vague on my part so my fault but what am i saying is that you can argue Machina is capable of killing beings who lack history through this method. Unless of course, they have some kind of ability that keeps their history to Zero like Ren's.

Can't upload scans for some reason so here's the vid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFkSaMmK968&t=1h18m54s

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Yeah, that's nothing to do with Machina. It's simply saying that even if a new story started, as soon as any time had passed and the new story had "a single word written" (to use a metaphor from earlier in that route), it would have a history that could be destroyed.

Machina doesn't "create" a history for something by punching it.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

seems legit but seeing Machina erases in one touch and Divine Vessel survived touching, that isn't EE resistance? his target was armor but still it touched and crushed Reinhard's fist and chest too. yet it only destroyed Valeria's soul.

Machina shows some ability to control just what he's erasing so I would just take that to mean he's not trying to erase the vessel.

 

[Dysmity]

Practically ignored the part where Ren states that his second punch would have killed him as the first punch led to a new history being born. The only reason it doesn't because Ren's law constantly makes him zero

"Thus, even if i survived the first impact,the most meager amount of time that passed after the impact would give me a story, making the following blow fatal"

 

[Mizarle]

He can control? IIRC In Ikabey it says something like his Briah would go as far as erasing all the concept of darkness when fighting Meth, not just killing Meth.

 

[Infera28]

Does it have something to do with Reinhard's soul itself? About resistance I mean

You could make a case for that. Masada also stated Machina killing Rein with his fists are quite nil

there is any link from Masada's quote about chance Machina killing rein with his fists are nonexistent?

 

[Dysmity]

Atwiki. Can't remember where it is exactly

 

[PsychoWarper]

What is the full context of Machina saying his only weapon his trash against Reinhard?

 

[Warren_Valion]

Constantly being able to stated to be able to break the Divine Vessel, but simultaneously stating that the one weapon you have is useless against Reinhard - implies that it is Reinhard's soul that can deal with Machina's Briah, and not his body in which Trifa is possession of.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

What is the full context of Machina saying his only weapon his trash against Reinhard?

He and Ren where fighting at the end of kei route, Ren questions Machina about him serving Rein and being scared to fight, after a while Machina confesses that he isn't scared but his sole weapon is as good as trash against Rein.

There is another one during Marie route where Machina says that even "with a thousands opportunities he wouldn't be able to kill rein" or something like that as I am writing this from memory.

He also mentions that he basically has infinite opportunities to pull it off thanks to being an einherjar but to die that much is a pain just to try something that may not work.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

there is any link from Masada's quote about chance Machina killing rein with his fists are nonexistent?

I dunno about that, but in two routes he says or implies he is useless against Rein

 

[PsychoWarper]

I mean Reinhards Type 8 makes Machinas weapon along with most EE trash

Hmm ok then I think what I and Warren have said my be the case in that it has more to do with Reinhards soul than body.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

only merc has actual knowledge about Rein type 8 tho

 

[PsychoWarper]

I would hope so since its from him

 

[Infera28]

i mean Machina already crushed Reinhard's hand and chest so he hasn't any problem in destroying his body. it multiple times stated Machina is capable of bypassing any defense too. so Reinhard being capable of surviving his punches is pretty debatable.

 

[Warren_Valion]

i mean Machina already crushed Reinhard's hand and chest so he hasn't any problem in destroying his body. it multiple times stated Machina is capable of bypassing any defense too. so Reinhard being capable of surviving his punches is pretty debatable.

We can't forget that to an Die Ewigkeit user, a physical body is nothing.

So Reinhard's soul being able to take an ability that his body being controlled by Trifa can't makes logical sense within the setting of the verse.

And, no offense, but I take Machina's word on his own abilities over your skepticism.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

i mean Machina already crushed Reinhard's hand and chest so he hasn't any problem in destroying his body. it multiple times stated Machina is capable of bypassing any defense too. so Reinhard being capable of surviving his punches is pretty debatable.

But it was Trifa in Rein's body.

Also, what Warren said.

 

[PsychoWarper]

I mean we all know well and good Reinhard could definitely survive Machinas punches

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Practically ignored the part where Ren states that his second punch would have killed him as the first punch led to a new history being born. The only reason it doesn't because Ren's law constantly makes him zero

"Thus, even if i survived the first impact,the most meager amount of time that passed after the impact would give me a story, making the following blow fatal"

Look at this

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Practically ignored the part where Ren states that his second punch would have killed him as the first punch led to a new history being born. The only reason it doesn't because Ren's law constantly makes him zero

"Thus, even if i survived the first impact,the most meager amount of time that passed after the impact would give me a story, making the following blow fatal"

No dude, I ignored nothing.

Ren's law made him 0, but it only started his story anew at the moment of impact. Because it was a completely new story, it had no history for MVS to erase.

There is nothing in the scene that states Machina's punch itself led to a new history being born. You are reading the sentence grammatically incorrectly.

The sentence is not "the impact would give me a story", which is what you are arguing. The sentence is "the most meagre amount of time that passed after the impact would give me a strong". Time passing gives the story, not the impact.

Had time passed after the impact, had his story progressed, then he could have been erased, but his law which had just activated and reset his story also froze his time and kept him at 0.

It's nothing to do with Machina giving people history by punching them. It's just that Ren's "story" had been reset to nothing and was being kept there by his law.

If a normal person without the time freeze had their story reset on the first punch, then the second punch could kill them because despite being reset to 0, they have no time freeze to keep them at 0. That wouldn't be because Machina gives them history, it would be because "the most meaner amount of time" had passed and thus they now had a past and history.

If Machina punched an acausal without any history, they would not now have a history because he punched them. They would still have no past. He does not negate acausality with his punches and he does not give people history with his punches.

You are focusing far too much on the "impact" part of that quote and not enough on the "most merger amount of time that passed". Time passing is the important thing because if time passes, anything not acausal or frozen in time now has a history.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

And, no offense, but I take Machina's word on his own abilities over your skepticism.

I know this wasn't talking to me but would you take Mercurius's / the narrator's word on what can damage the vessel?

I believe it is Kei's route in which four things capable of damaging Reinhard are listed, a legion's worth of firepower, Reinhard himself, and Machina's fists being among them

 

[Warren_Valion]

I know this wasn't talking to me but would you take Mercurius's / the narrator's word on what can damage the vessel?

I believe it is Kei's route in which four things capable of damaging Reinhard are listed, a legion's worth of firepower, Reinhard himself, and Machina's fists being among them

Reinhard is not the vessel and a Die Ewigkeit user's body is nothing to their soul.

Just because Trifa in Reinhard's body is susceptible to Machina's briah, does not mean that Reinhard's soul is, as Machina himself stated that he couldn't do shit to Reinhard with his strongest weapon.

So yes, I take Mercurius's word, and what was shown in the novel, as fact that Machina's Briah is greater than Reinhard's body - but I also take Machina's word that his Briah isn't enough to take out Reinhard's soul.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Except the ways to break through the impregnable Divine Vessel are listed at a time when it's Reinhard in the body.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/519717791708741643/614304379222229003/unknown.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/519717791708741643/614304498386599936/unknown.png

Machina's fists are listed alongside the things capable of damaging him, along with self-inflicted injury, at a time when that injury has just been inflicted. It would take a jump in logic to assume that Machina's fist is the odd one out that only works when it's Trifa in there not Reinhard.

 

[Warren_Valion]

For some reason the wiki won't let me comment the full response - I'll try and fix that.

Here's a link to a google docs showing my response: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MhujM-9Q0MrtCsaKFC57BhuVs6KL-YwpxVh0XcrXpWk/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Wrong.

In both Marie Route and Kei Route, Beast regains his body. We literally see Beast regain his body in Marie route when Machina punches Trifa, and the same happens in Kei's route.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/519717791708741643/614357126533611536/unknown.png

Trifa's soul goes, Beast's is now in his place, back in his body. The scans I presented are from the same route, where Beast is also now back in Gladshiemr. So even if you wanted to argue that "he wasn't in his body cuz his soul was in Glads", Kei's route has both his body and soul in Glads, together, and that is when he takes the damage, and that is when the ways to harm him are mentioned. When he is the one within the Divine Vessel, not Trifa.


And the gap in the armour is talking about an existing flaw, not Trifa giving up the defense to summon the offense.

Also the reason it wasn't letting you post is because the word you and and VN use for "gap" is an ethnic slur against Chinese and so Ant's anti-slur bot won't let you post it. Though it would be good if it could come up with a clearer explanation than "error"