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Marvel's "At least 2-C, possibly 2-A" Upgrade.

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Thanks for doing that Seed. I'm about to sleep so I'll be back here tomorrow. Can you contact Sandman31 as well? He said 2-A was possible but wanted to see the scans.

Also @Ant Seed's already got approval from two staff members (Qawsed and Crabwhale), just in case you didn't see.
 
The problem with seeds comment is I feel like he's just using scans which are years apart and from completely different writers without really explaining how they actually correlate or are consistent with each other

for example

" Marvel offically notes the Crossroads as literally one of, if not the lowest level of the Multiverse... Even lower than the Astral Plane and Nightmare's Realm.. Which people have been able to affect for the longest."

- That guidebook has literally never been mentioned or used in any single comic in marvel history since its release and has been just dumped into obscurity, saying the astral plane > the cross roads of infinity when even beings like the silver surfer can arguably manipulate the astral plane is pretty iffy.
 
Hykuu makes a good point. Seed has a tendency to look for patterns between writers from stories several years apart, where there is no intentional coherence to be found between them.
 
@POTM

Noted, but this is a very controversial and questionable change. We have to be absolutely certain before we do anything.
 
I wouldn't say its controversial, just that it effects alot of characters, but not by that much, this isn't like the other high 1-B revisions, just 2-A, we can even settle on a possibly (though I'd prefer if we get a solid 2-A)
 
Well, Marvel is a prominent franchise, so I prefer evaluations from several of our most knowledgeable members first.
 
@POTM I'll contact Sandman again.

@Ant/@Hykuu The reason I didn't really meant for this just to be a 2-A Revision... Actually this revision I consider "nothing" in comparison because if what I found is true from Heroes Reborn: The Return then the above doesn't really matter as much.

Coincidence/Intentions between Writers doesn't matter in Marvel due to the inconsistency between retcons as Marvel doesn't care about what the writers intended at all... or any fictional work shouldn't be accounted for when looking at feats (otherwise some verses would be bloated to far higher/lower statistics... Like for instance Demonbane was intended by the Writer to only be High 1-B and limited by dimensions despite the Novel clearly being 1-A... and Author's intent for odzilla is outlierish in comparison to what we currently have) ... If the feats are consistent enough they should be noted in some form or fashion.
 
We must take inconsistencies and lack of knowledge from the writers and editors into account, or we end up with extremely inflated statistics.
 
I understand that... That's why whwnever I gather feats I have to be sure other writers acknowledge it and have referenced it within their works and implemented it as well . That in and of itself is why I'm having difficulty with the stuff I found about Heroes Reborn The Return.... and the whole "Defenders" and other things ... Because if you take all those high-ends and look at them conceptually (I did this for literally a whole day because this relevation shocked me to the core...) ...

They link right back up to the Fallen Stars and DeMatteis' works completely. Silver Surfer, Man-Thing, Hulk, Defenders, Fantastic Four , Secret Wars, Iceman, Spider-Man... All written by people who otherwise were unaffiliated with DeMatteis prior... They all reference DeMatteis' works such as Shamballa and the Fallen Stars... with Shamballa itself even explaining most of the main inconsistencies about why such high-ends were never seen prior to it as the current layout of the verse is but an Illusion and such power could only be unlocked by a select few.. Meaning the real nature of the realities was never truly known until then . It shocked me so much I don't even know how to even begin to try to work this out. His works were intended to rewrite how the lore/cosmology of Marvel works... and it infuriates me because in many ways it is enforcing levels of Marvel I wanted to get away from...

I did ask Sandman to help me out with this one since he helped evaluate feats of this level before.... But besides that I don't know who to begin asking.
 
I want to go over that as soon as we finish this... Because that stuff is way too important to ignore.. Especially if 2-A is approved. I already have the scans nice and tucked away in the blog I just created which links to them... It was partly why I was taking so long... So we won't have to wait for me to gather scans as I already have them.

IN-fact I can just link to the section of the blog that talks solely about it right here ... I'll edit it into the OP..

But in two Paragraphs: The Blog in the OP linked goes into detail about the feats of Shamballa & Strange Tales and how it connects back to the canon verse (from the classic Marvel onwaards)... and affects those who scale to At least 2-C. It also says how essentially all things have the potential to be that strong and the reason why no one was able to reach it normally via feats was via unable to see past the illusion and the Dream of Reality... Which those who have said feats/scale to it can see past it.

We also have several "Tier 1" feats for these otherwise "At least 2-C" entities about merely 616 (the actual universe 616 not it's inhabitants... But the universe itself scales above the Lords of Shamballa from a feat during Heroes Reborn: The Return ...) and have examples of regular realities containing "Tier 1" constructs. Even in Strange Tales the "Death of the Multiverse" , which scaled above the Lords of Shamballa was contained in an alternate dream that one of the Fallen Stars embodied... Who are fodder to the At least 2-C's So that in and of itself is notable enough.
 
For now because that one is far more important in the grand scheme of things... Although if you evaluated this one we maybe can apply those changes before the other one gets started.
 
So should I close this?

We are not going to accept scaling everybody to 1-A from the retconned and/or ignored DeMatteis stuff, so perhaps it would be better if we close the other one, and focus on this instead?
 
It would be preferable to close this one until the other one is concluded... As it's essentially the same thing but elevated to a higher level. Plus we already for the most part agree with 2A so it's far more simple than the other thread would be.

Everybody is an very extreme exaggeration first off... I made it very clear who scales to that. Secondly it's a cosmology retcon... that several writers and storylines implemented besides DeMatteis... So it isn't just him that acknowledges those changes... So it needs to be addressed before we can resolve this thread.
 
Also I mentioned in the "Notes" Section I vehemently disagree with 1-A... But I do believe it points to the universes potentially being far higher than merely the tiers I suggested here for the universes. I just mentioned it to see merely what people thought about it and then reveal what I truly believe the information could be used for arguing instrad.
 
Do you have an URL for the other thread? Personally, I think that even 2-A seems extreme for the universal entities.
 
Not until very knowledgeable members have thoroughly verified that the scans/information is accurate and reliable.
 
The very first link and all three Tiamut-related links don't work for me. The FR doppleganger link doesn't work either.

  • Someone more familiar with the Nexus should evaluate the context behind Strange's statement, but for now I'll say it seems 2-A on the surface. Again, I don't know the context so I'll trust Seed that Strange is referring to the entire multiverse and not the 616 universe.
  • The first 2-A Cosmic Cube scan is from 2018 and the Kubik stuff is from way back in the late 80s, so at least it's somewhat consistent. The last scan is from a crossover with X-O Manowar, and I think it's a videogame tie-in if I remember right. Not sure about using that one but if there's proof it was later referenced as canon then yeah it's 2-A.
  • Do you have a direct scan of the context behind the statement about Franklin "pulling it together" when the revision wave hit? Also I don't think jumping into it means anything since Nathaniel just said he'd be lost in time.
  • The scans about Celestials creating the multiverse aren't valid evidence of 2-A. Both speak of the event as folklore, and we know what really happened: the Celestials used a weapon to shatter the First Firmament, and the pieces coalesced into the first Multiverse. It doesn't scale to individual Celestials.
  • I don't know the context behind the "destroy the multiverse with something the Celestials created" scan, but we already know they can create superweapons that scale above themselves, so I don't know about this one either.
  • I've never read any Excalibur or Captain Britain comics so someone more knowledgeable should evaluate the Roma stuff. But I have a question: is there a definitive multiversal feat for Roma, rather than just evidence that she draws power from a multiversal source? As in, evidence that she can use all that power at once to perform multiversal feats?
  • Franklin being stronger than Tiamut may have been stated once (the link doesn't work for me), but adult Franklin also would have lost to a couple normal Celestials if he didn't have help. Hickman's run contradicts that scan (assuming it's legit, as I can't see it).
  • Asheema's "feat" isn't even a feat.
  • The Watcher saying "the fate of all may hang in the balance" isn't super solid evidence that Franklin can destroy infinite universes with an attack. Also, wouldn't he just be referring to Heroes Reborn-related stuff in this case?
  • Same with the "danger to the Omniverse" line. It's better than the Watcher's statement but still kind of vague.
  • I wouldn't use the Griever storyline as evidence since Franklin was creating one universe at a time.
  • The superstructure scan seems better, but I'm unsure if it explicitly means 2-A power or just 2-A range, considering that afterward we know he was just making one universe at a time. If others say this is a 2-A feat though, I'm fine with it.
  • The Mephisto/Hela scan is talking about a massive war, I don't see it as evidence Hela and Mephisto would literally destroy the multiverse.
TL;DR: Skyfathers/Hell-Lords are definitely not 2-A. Cosmic Cubes have a few legitimately 2-A feats, and only the Universal Abstracts (and those who scale to the Abstracts) scale above them since we no longer scale Celestials as being infinitely above Cubes. I'm really iffy on these Franklin scans being proof of 2-A power, and some of the links don't work for me in the first place. The doppleganger one seems especially important to see.
 
The problem is that both 616 and Heroes Reborn together was used to shatter the edge of Subspace, which is the Crossroads of Infinity.... Which was the feat that caused the heroes to return as what Strange hinted towards involving the Multiverse. The feat would scale to those who can affect 616 since it contributed to literally half the feat.

Ouch.... Anyways... Asheena has seen the Negative Zone & Crossroads of Infinity in the same Heroes Reborn comic... So him being a threat to Creation would at least scale to those places ... And she explicitly stated not just this timeline, but " all of creation "

Transcending the Edge of Subspace is literally like growing beyond the Crossroads of Infinity... So I disagree with the assumption that isn't a feat when it actually would be a feat.

Merlyn created Otherworld using similar levels of power... and Roma would likely scale to that since they've been treated equal.

The Mad Celestials are explicitly celestials who are drunk on power... So again they aren't normal in the slightest. Especially when they have resistance feats to the Infinity Gauntlet and Ultimate Nullifer... Which even if you assume were weakened one of the Reeds explicitly used a portal to travel to his Universe to access the FP of the IG... Didn't work against the Mad Celestials in the slightest.

Franklin has multiple statements of being a threat to the Multiverse... Not just that one.

Franklin creating one Universe doesn't matter at all to his raw power... So was Molecule Man in those comics yet we have him as 1-A. He was creating one at a time explicitly because of his lack of imagination... They hinted that in Reborn and several storylines. His manipulation abilities always superceded his raw creation power.
 
We cannot use the X-O Manowar feat. It is a crossover, and we have rules against using them.

Being a threat to the "omniverse" also seems like extreme hyperbole, give how massive a term omniverse really is.
 
All of reality would still be too massive a claim.
 
@Seed

  • According to Jonathan Hickma, the Mad Celestials are equal to their 616 counterparts, specifically in power. Plus, if I remember right the Celestials attacked the Reeds in their little interdimensional meeting room, where none of their Gauntlets worked. I don't remember them tanking an Ultimate Nullifier blast either, plus that would then directly contradict the latter part of the run where they fight Galactus. Any way you slice it, Hickman's material is a contradiction for Franklin scaling above Tiamut.
  • Regarding Asheema, it seems like you're trying to equate what is just a teleportation/dimensional travel feat with a High 1-B feat.
  • Otherworld is at most a universe-sized realm that links to other realms, a far cry from 2-A levels of power.
  • "Franklin has multiple statements of being a threat to the Multiverse... Not just that one." Can you show them?
  • "Franklin creating one Universe doesn't matter at all to his raw power... So was Molecule Man in those comics yet we have him as 1-A." Franklin isn't on MM's level and his own feats within that storyline were Low 2-C.
Also, can you fix the links? Especially for the doppleganger scan, as that one seems the most important if it's legitimate.
 
Otherworld has been referred to as a multiversal realm throughout literally all of excalibur and even the infamous surtur otherworld feat, I have no idea where the universal stuff came from, specially when the citadel exists in otherworld.

them fighting galactus doesn't mean much, all that happened is that a well fed mind you galactus killed one of them with brute force and they merged and 1 shot him. Even adult franklin richards who is >>>> galactus needed power from his young counterpart to fight the super celestial. Also it would be bold to just assume that hickman didn't have the UN and galactus as either equal or galactus as superior

all the statements you need arehere , he made this pretty good blog awhile ago.

the doppelganger scan works fine for me and I can justify it,idk if this link would work for you


Making one universe at a time actually doesn't mean anything, lets not forget the fact that the superstructure statement would still be 2-A regardless of range as it wouldn't make sense they'd just create every universe one by one unto transinfinity lol, franklin was portrayed as 2-A throughout the entire storyline (secret wars)

for the griever the griever quite literally respects and admires franklin's power, and she is irrefutably a threat to the multiverse.

the super weapons the celestials created (the exterminators and the death seed) both got forcefully sealed by the celestials, the weapons aren't entirely superior to them, this both means the death seed scan and the other scan are valid
 
  • The Surtur feat used Otherworld as a link to all the other dimensions, that doesn't mean Otherworld is as big as all the other realms combined. Just because it links to every realm in the multiverse doesn't make it a 2-A realm. Do you have a scan from Excalibur that says Otherworld is made of infinite universes?
  • After the merged Celestial one-shot Galactus, Franklin was stated to be unable to win against the de-merged Celestials, which is why he revived Galactus to help him.
  • Link still doesn't work for me, idk why.
  • This is what I wrote above regarding the superstructure statement: "If others say this is a 2-A feat though, I'm fine with it."
  • The Griever no-diff stomped Franklin, he can't scale to her.
  • Sealing something doesn't mean you scale to its AP.
If you've already gone through that blog, can you post the 2-A feats/statements here?
 
Hykuu is far better at debating for 2-A than I am able to... So I shall leave most of it up to him... However I will say this about Griever:

Respecting Franklin should be notable as any other entity she views as mere fodder. And yes he got oneshotted... At a time where he was legit stated to have lost his powers and was depowered... So we can't use that as an anti feat when there is a clear explanation.. Especially when context implies Griever waited for Franklin to lose his powers to act upon destroying the Multiverse.
 
My bad, I remembered things wrong. The point I should have made was that she no-diff stomped Molecule Man, so unless we're now gonna scale Franklin as well as every Celestial to MM then he shouldn't scale to Griever.


Alternatively, apparently they had only created and charted 1,263 universes at this point, so if anything Griever could be used to scale a 2-B upgrade. Since she instantly destroyed every universe they had charted. And in this case MM's defeat would have to be ignored as PIS.

That's assuming the 2-A upgrade for Celestial-tiers doesn't go through though, since I'm assuming Hykuu will provide the solid 2-A scans for them.
 
MM being defeated by a universe destroyer seems like PIS, yes.

I do not think that she destroyed every universe that the FF created though, as that would mean that there were none of them left afterwards, going by the Secret War ending.
 
Well I think the key word is Sue says Griever destroyed every universe they "charted". They probably created far more than 1263 universes, but in terms of how many they created and finished charting, 1263 is the number given.
 
Okay. That seems useful for Griever then, but it likely does not scale directly to anybody else.
 
Bump. My major question is why can't we use Heroes Reborn feat I mentioned earlier to help scale ? I mean yes there is more feats, but if 616 itself has a 2A or even higher feat, which would scale to those capable of affecting 616 and its branching realities ... I'm not certain why that can't be considered ?


Yes but I'm not arguing for 1A like before... But I still believe we can use that feat to help with the cosmology aspect for determining what it is, whether it be tier 2 or tier 1.
 
I'll gather scans but this is what essentially happened:

  • Basically Earth 616 and a Universe intended to replace it or is even lesser depending on which is more preferred (Heroes Reborn) performed the feat of allowing the heroes to return and breach the Edge of Subspace... Which is The Crossroads of Infinity... Which either is 2A or High 1B
  • Dr.Strange stated later than the series (in the canon version) returning to Earth 616 causing the Nexus to shatter and all higher dimensions of the Multiverse to start collapsing. Again even if you don't belive it is High 1B they make it blatantly clear it's at least 2A
  • Then remember these universe branches off into realities of conparative nature to the original. Then all the Low 2C (the one centered around Earth 616 or Heroes Reborn become 2A or High 1B), 2A feats become either unfathomably higher end levels of 2A , or High 1B , and the Higher Dimensions are more potent than before.


If the higher end is accepted it makes some of the more outlandish tier 1 feats done by the cast throughout the comics much more consistent inhindsight. This si also consistent with hos 616 is viewed as the most important cosmology. However, if this is accepted the feats on this level will be evaluated on a case by case basis. Not every Low 2C becomes High 1B... and not every 2A feat becomes this high end as well. Please trust me as those scaling to this would be exceedingly specific in hindsight.
 
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