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1-A, possibly High 1-A Franklin Richards Upgrade Thread

7085500-screenshot%20from%202019-09-26%2016-58-53.png


Found this, Franklin saying he has created multiverses (Sorry for the quality)

EDIT; better quality image
 
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I could help with some of the scans. Adding tags to this thread would help. Took me time find this thread
 
Okay so, while I didn't have enough time to add scans, I DID edit the OP to include comic issues as to where exactly to find all of the evidence. When I get the chance I'll actually fill it out with the scans, but hoping this will satiate people for the moment.

One of the most important tidbits is the fact that in Fantastic Four #375, #376 that it's stated that his powers continuously grow at an geometric rate every moment. So basically the power level he has when he's just starting off is way weaker than how powerful he is later on, despite it being stated that in his fight with Agatha that they were fighting across the full gamut (the complete scope) of reality, and Agatha was almost immediately and completely overpowered in that fight.
 
The sandbox have more than enough evidence to bump Franklin to 1-A, possibly High 1-A. Not that we are going to use the entire scans in the sandbox.
 
The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
So, what would be the justification for '1-A, possibly High 1-A' (or just 1-A since it seems Goofy's thread is going through)
Click to expand...
  1. The Omniversal guardians alongside Eternity and Infinity considered him a threat with power enough to stand as an equal before the Celestial Race (Fantastic Four (Vol. 3) #8; 1998)
  2. Narration describes Occulus as omnipotent after tapping into Franklin's power (Fantastic Four #364) , which with them it was not only stated that there was no feat or task that is beyond his current capabilities (Fantastic Four #364), but also with them he is stated to be a threat to every plane of existence (Fantastic Four #365)
  3. Can casually separate Nightmare from two other beings, with the process causing all of them pain implying it did significantly affect/hurt Nightmare and Phoenix Force Rachel (Excalibur #29) . Franklin proceeded to defeat the possessed Phoenix Force Rachel in the same issue.
  4. A significantly weakened Franklin is still referred to as the most powerful boy in the Multiverse.(Fantastic Four Vol 6 issue 20)
  5. Could harm the Cormorant, who should scale above the Zero Force. Franklin earn the respect of Cormorant as he is the only one on earth plane capable of challenging him. Reed, in same issue said Franklin's power is capable of creating universes and battling Gods of which Doctor Doom agreed.
  6. Implied he could harm an amped In-Betweener if he access to his powers (Silver Surfer 1988 #17).
  7. The Dreaming Celestial Tiamut, who was the strongest of the Host, a threat to the entire Cosmos (which is explicitly implied in context to be All of Creation), who had a hand in shaping All of Creation, was unable to affect Franklin's Counter Earth until he was no longer protecting it. These scans come from Heroes Reborn: Asheema and Fantastic Four Volume 3.
  8. Franklin is stated to be capable of reshaping the entire Cosmos (with 'The entire Cosmos" in this arc, specifically in Heroes Reborn Asheema referring to All of Creation) and capable of destroying Everything by Roma's definition of Everything , with Uatu explicitly stating the Fate of All may hang in the balance, with Uatu being known to be aware of the nature of the Cosmology of Marvel up to an at the very least Low 1-A scale. Roma is explicitly stated as over viewing the entire Omniverse in the very same issue, so her definition of Everything would in-fact be equivalent of the Omniverse. It is also stated in these same issues that Franklin can do just about anything with his powers. These scans come from Fantastic Four Volume 3 issues 7.
  9. Then later on we truly see him capable of affecting Multiversal Eternity (Fantastic Four Volume 3 issue 49)
  10. Griever at the End of All Things is explicitly implied to have been waiting for Franklin's powers to run out before making a move, implying she wouldn't have if Franklin still had his powers at their full extent (Fantastic Four (Vol 6) #2)
  11. Young Franklin turns a celestial energy attack to flowers. The Celestials also describe Franklin as "Beyond Omega". (Fantastic Four #13).

Franklin ratings should have something like:
Unknown physically. 1-A with powers for all his AP, Durability and Striking Strength.
Range: Outerversal
Speed: Immeasurable
Lifting Strength: Unknown physically. Immeasurable with powers
 
So, a few things I found out after reading Volume 6. I posted it in the Discussion thread but I thought it'd be best to also post it here:
  • Doctor Doom states that the Cormurant comes from a Higher Plane of Existence entirely than Earth 616 in Vol 6 issue 25. Reed also believed that Cormurant was beyond an Omega Level threat. Cormurant confirms this in Vol 6 issue 43
  • The Cormorant was stated by Dr. Doom to be one of the most powerful beings in this or any reality.
  • Wrath empowered by the M'krann Crystal that he himself destroyed before being amped by them, still was being defeated by Comurant until he used the one weakness he built into Cormurant just in case of this exact situation (Fantastic Four Vol 6 issue 44) . Wrath stated he survived a blast that eradicated 9/10ths of Creation, something confirmed by Uatu. (Vol 6 issue 42). I say defeat loosely because he really didn't seem that affected afterwards so yeah Cormurant is a whole beast.
  • Despite being told about The Cormurant by Dr.Doom, Reed is still confident Franklin could fight him (Vol 6 issue 25)
  • Cormurant straight up acknowledges that Franklin was the only being who could possibly fight him in 616 (Once again, Vol 6 issue 25)

So yeah, 1-A even for a Heavily Weakened Franklin is completely confirmed as of Volume 6. Like he was roughly even with Cormurant who was about to kill someone who tanked 9/10ths of All of Creation being destroyed, is from a higher plane of reality, and straight up said no one else in 616 could possibly match him other than Franklin.
 
The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
So, a few things I found out after reading Volume 6. I posted it in the Discussion thread but I thought it'd be best to also post it here:
  • Doctor Doom states that the Cormurant comes from a Higher Plane of Existence entirely than Earth 616 in Vol 6 issue 25. Reed also believed that Cormurant was beyond an Omega Level threat. Cormurant confirms this in Vol 6 issue 43
  • The Cormorant was stated by Dr. Doom to be one of the most powerful beings in this or any reality.
  • Wrath empowered by the M'krann Crystal that he himself destroyed before being amped by them, still was being defeated by Comurant until he used the one weakness he built into Cormurant just in case of this exact situation (Fantastic Four Vol 6 issue 44) . Wrath stated he survived a blast that eradicated 9/10ths of Creation, something confirmed by Uatu. (Vol 6 issue 42). I say defeat loosely because he really didn't seem that affected afterwards so yeah Cormurant is a whole beast.
  • Despite being told about The Cormurant by Dr.Doom, Reed is still confident Franklin could fight him (Vol 6 issue 25)
  • Cormurant straight up acknowledges that Franklin was the only being who could possibly fight him in 616 (Once again, Vol 6 issue 25)

So yeah, 1-A even for a Heavily Weakened Franklin is completely confirmed as of Volume 6. Like he was roughly even with Cormurant who was about to kill someone who tanked 9/10ths of All of Creation being destroyed, is from a higher plane of reality, and straight up said no one else in 616 could possibly match him other than Franklin.
Click to expand...
Another key for a weakened Franklin?
 
Excellence616 said:
Another key for a weakened Franklin?
Click to expand...
Basically yeah, and Full Power Franklin would just massively upscale. It also backs up Valeria's statement she made that the weakened Franklin still had enough power to fight the Celestials (and she was right there when he fought the Mad Celestials in the past and she is extremely intelligent so not a statement to just throw away) . and weakened Franklin is considered the most powerful boy in the Multiverse by Narration (which would likely put him above a few 1-A characters like Demiurge Wiccan)

Doom also considered Weakened Franklin as Krakoa's most powerful Mutant, so that's something.
 
Bump.

So basically here is what I have based on what Excellence gave , alongside other things I found:

Franklin ratings should have something like:
Unknown physically. 1-A with powers (Referred to as having powers unprecedented in humanity's history and being humanity's pinnacle up until Heroes Reborn: The Return, putting him above beings such as Jean Grey with the Phoenix Force , Doctor Strange at it's highest end, and many more beings who have been known to Humanity. Consistently referred to as the most powerful mutant. Defeated Phoenix Force Rachel. Defeated a version of Mephisto in his realm who was causing Doctor Strange to struggle. Harmed Muli-Eternity indirectly. Stated by Roma to be capable of destroying everything despite her definition of everything being the Omniverse as it is her job to safeguard and monitor the Omniverse as it's Guardian. Even when severely weakened, he could fight on par with Cormurant, a beeing beyond the higher plane of Earth-616 who could damage and nearly killed an entity who survived 9/10ths of All of Creation being detonated around him, and is referred to by narration as the most powerful boy in the Multiverse, putting him above a Fully Powered Legion, who is stated to be arguably the most powerful being in the Multiverse)
Range: Outerversal
Speed: Immeasurable
Lifting Strength: Unknown physically. Immeasurable with powers


If anyone has an issue with reasoning let me know, but this is essentially the most notable 1-A stuff (some would be High 1-A if Ultima re-upgrades them back to High 1-A or higher, who knows with Ultima he tends to surprise us a lot of the time with what he's cooking behind the scenes)

Sorry for the edit, but arguably the most damning pieces of evidence of Celestials scaling to Abstracts or above is the Progneitor's interaction with Fully Powered Legion.

It is that Fully Powered Legion despite his huge accolades (Stated he may be the most powerful being to exist , Immortal X-Men #5 , and even him without being whole was affecting Earth-616) , he is still regarded as being capable of being judged by this no name Celestial like how Kubik was judged by that no name Celestial... Extremely damning to me, especially since this isn't even one of the Fourth Hosts who Franklin was compared to, and they are consistently referred to as the most powerful Celestials.
 
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The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
Bump.

So basically here is what I have based on what Excellence gave , alongside other things I found:

Franklin ratings should have something like:
Unknown physically. 1-A with powers (Referred to as having powers unprecedented in humanity's history and being humanity's pinnacle up until Heroes Reborn: The Return, putting him above beings such as Jean Grey with the Phoenix Force , Doctor Strange at it's highest end, and many more beings who have been known to Humanity. Consistently referred to as the most powerful mutant. Defeated Phoenix Force Rachel. Defeated a version of Mephisto in his realm who was causing Doctor Strange to struggle. Harmed Muli-Eternity indirectly. Stated by Roma to be capable of destroying everything despite her definition of everything being the Omniverse as it is her job to safeguard and monitor the Omniverse as it's Guardian. Even when severely weakened, he could fight on par with Cormurant, a beeing beyond the higher plane of Earth-616 who could damage and nearly killed an entity who survived 9/10ths of All of Creation being detonated around him, and is referred to by narration as the most powerful boy in the Multiverse, putting him above a Fully Powered Legion, who is stated to be arguably the most powerful being in the Multiverse)
Range: Outerversal
Speed: Immeasurable
Lifting Strength: Unknown physically. Immeasurable with powers


If anyone has an issue with reasoning let me know, but this is essentially the most notable 1-A stuff (some would be High 1-A if Ultima re-upgrades them back to High 1-A or higher, who knows with Ultima he tends to surprise us a lot of the time with what he's cooking behind the scenes)

Sorry for the edit, but arguably the most damning pieces of evidence of Celestials scaling to Abstracts or above is the Progneitor's interaction with Fully Powered Legion.

It is that Fully Powered Legion despite his huge accolades (Stated he may be the most powerful being to exist , Immortal X-Men #5 , and even him without being whole was affecting Earth-616) , he is still regarded as being capable of being judged by this no name Celestial like how Kubik was judged by that no name Celestial... Extremely damning to me, especially since this isn't even one of the Fourth Hosts who Franklin was compared to, and they are consistently referred to as the most powerful Celestials.
Click to expand...
Sorry for this but does anyone have any issue with the bolded reasoning ? Because this is likely what I'm using for Franklin's profile once we have enough staff agreements
 
What currently needs to be done or evaluated here, and which staff members have agreed with what so far? 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
What currently needs to be done or evaluated here, and which staff members have agreed with what so far? 🙏
Click to expand...
So far only 1 staff agreed, but every knowledgeable member so far has agreed to this, including Excellence amongst others. I was told by staff that the blog didn't have enough scans but I disagree with that, everything in the blog has both scans and sources as to where to look up for additional context behind the feat, and the sources do back up Franklin scaling to 1-A, with Volume 6 confirming that even a very weakened Franklin still very much scales to 1-A thanks to his relativity to Cormurant in such a state, with multiple people stating the fight was even while Franklin had powers, and the confirmation he's the most powerful boy in the Multiverse.

I didn't go overboard with scans as I didn't want to make someone have to read it for a long time, but Franklin has much more evidence in favor of 1-A (which may become High 1-A if Marvel gets revised) scaling than just
 
Haven't Maverick, Qawsedf234, and I all accepted this, or did @LordTracer have objections regarding issues that need to be adjusted? 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
Haven't Maverick, Qawsedf234, and I all accepted this, or did @LordTracer have objections regarding issues that need to be adjusted? 🙏
Click to expand...
Oh. I didn't see Qawsed there. Okay then, since three admins+ already accepted this we should be safe to go through with it (Tracer didn't have any objections in terms of disagreements, it was just his belief that there weren't enough scans to support the claims in the OP (which I disagree with, the scans and references in my blog support my arguments in the OP)
 
The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
it was just his belief that there weren't enough scans to support the claims in the OP
Click to expand...
That’s not even what I said? I said there were claims in the OP that didn’t have scans and/or references (which is still true), and that there’s multiple claims using “should be comparable” as a basis without explaining them (and all of them are still in the sandbox, unchanged from the last time I looked at it)
 
LordTracer said:
That’s not even what I said? I said there were claims in the OP that didn’t have scans and/or references (which is still true), and that there’s multiple claims using “should be comparable” as a basis without explaining them (and all of them are still in the sandbox, unchanged from the last time I looked at it)
Click to expand...
Well, in that case, the problems that you brought up need to be fixed first. 🙏
 
Pretty sure this is a necro but this is important enough to do this for. With the recent additions to what happened on Fantastic Four Volume 7 issue #32, and what may very well happening in issue #33, I am pretty confident the upgrade can go through. Here is the entire context of the issue, coupled with scans backing up said issue. But, to summarize what matters on a versus debating perspective:

  • A Franklin with none of current Franklin's maturity, as he's very much a child mentally, and none of the awareness of what happens in the future, singlehandedly protected Earth 616's Earth from every threat to it that the Marvel Universe dealt with since Franklin's birth to where Franklin should've been in the current timeline, including oneshotting Galactus.
  • Anyone who understand what that means, means that alone would be MORE than enough for the upgrade, since Valeria stated twice in the issue that he dealt with all of the threats that would've threatened Earth 616 and dealt with every cosmic threat that would've affected the timeline, effectively confirming Franklin's Goat status as there are a lot of God-Tier threats that would've done so without the Fantastic Four keeping them in check. With the current upgrades, he'd be sitting at High 1-A, like just straight up, not even a possibly.
  • Mind hax wise, he'd be at bare minimum comparable to Jean and Xavier, if not much stronger in terms of raw telepathic power. Xavier didn't even last a second due to Jean's own accounts of what happen. Jean herself used all of her telepathic power just to keep her and Valeria hidden. If she used anything less than her full telepathic might they would've been noticed, and if Valeria drew too much attention to her and Jean, they also would'e been noticed. Jean being unable to beat Franklin in a telepathic battle was proven when he finally found Jean and mind wiped her.
  • Valeria only won indirectly, taking advantage of Franklin's inexperience and the fact he was a child mentally, with none of the guidance current Franklin had, effectively being forced to be a God without being able to be a child first and grow into being one, thusly keeping Franklin's child immaturity in tact, but with the responsibilities of a God way too soon.
  • The resistance (Namor and Jean Grey), as well as Valeria herself, confirmed you can't defeat a God, not directly at least, which coming from Valeria, a relative peer if not peer to Reed Richards in intelligence, backs up Franklin's Goat Status as Valeria otherwise would've said there was a direct way of defeating Franklin in a power versus power kind of way, but her solution was taking advantage of his childlike mind.

So, yes, with this issue alone I definitively see High 1-A Franklin being not just a possibility, but an actuality. What level will probably be up for debate, and
 
Antvasima said:
What do you think about this suggested upgrade? 🙏
Click to expand...
I assume these feats specifically are the ones that'll be used for the justifications? 1-A looks pretty obvious, but I'm not sure about High 1-A.
  1. The Omniversal guardians alongside Eternity and Infinity considered him a threat with power enough to stand as an equal before the Celestial Race (Fantastic Four (Vol. 3) #8; 1998)
Click to expand...
Just to clarify (since I've seen some people misread this off-site for some reason), this scan doesn't say he's equal to Eternity and Infinity, it depicts Eternity and Infinity agreeing that Franklin is equal to the Celestials.
  1. Narration describes Occulus as omnipotent after tapping into Franklin's power (Fantastic Four #364) , which with them it was not only stated that there was no feat or task that is beyond his current capabilities (Fantastic Four #364), but also with them he is stated to be a threat to every plane of existence (Fantastic Four #365)
Click to expand...
Which planes of existence is this statement assumed to encompass? The spatial dimensions of the Universe have been called planes of existence, so have the mystic realms, so have parallel Universes, and Omniversal planes. Is this intended to be High 1-B, 1-A, High 1-A, or what?
Can casually separate Nightmare from two other beings, with the process causing all of them pain implying it did significantly affect/hurt Nightmare and Phoenix Force Rachel (Excalibur #29)
Click to expand...
7bwckka2l97.jpg
Click to expand...
Maybe this is me nitpicking, but them yelling in response to Franklin using fissionism on them is vague enough to the point where you can't confirm that Nightmare yelled out of pain rather than shock, especially since by physical appearance alone, he's fully unharmed in that panel and the one directly after.
Franklin proceeded to defeat the possessed Phoenix Force Rachel in the same issue.
Click to expand...
I suppose this is fine.
  1. Could harm the Cormorant, who should scale above the Zero Force. Franklin earn the respect of Cormorant as he is the only one on earth plane capable of challenging him. Reed, in same issue said Franklin's power is capable of creating universes and battling Gods of which Doctor Doom agreed.
Click to expand...
Firstly, where does the Zero Force scale, and why should he scale above it? The scan just depicts him opening a container with the Zero Force inside it and releasing it. He scales above the container I guess... but I don't see where him scaling above the actual force comes from going by that scan. At best, you could make the shaky argument that he's above it because it "disinterests him," but it's because he concluded the zero force wasn't necessary to he and his master's Helmsman's goals.

Secondly, wasn't the entire plot of the story arc Cormorant appeared in (Reckoning War) that members of the Reckoning like Cormorant fight each other using Watcher-level technology, and he himself is vulnerable to the Tactigon, which is among the weaker Watcher-level weapons of the Reckoning? Other members of the Reckoning saw him as their plaything and laughed when Doctor Doom overestimated his power. It seems like Cormorant is intended to be Watcher-level.
  1. Implied he could harm an amped In-Betweener if he access to his powers (Silver Surfer 1988 #17).
Click to expand...
Looks pretty clear.
  1. The Dreaming Celestial Tiamut, who was the strongest of the Host, a threat to the entire Cosmos (which is explicitly implied in context to be All of Creation), who had a hand in shaping All of Creation, was unable to affect Franklin's Counter Earth until he was no longer protecting it. These scans come from Heroes Reborn: Asheema and Fantastic Four Volume 3.
Click to expand...
"Was unable to affect Franklin's Counter Earth until he was no longer protecting it" -There is no scan for this part.

Also, a crucial part of Tiamut's backstory is that he's sealed away on Earth due to a battle with other Celestials, and had to craft all these plans to free himself using other people's powers since he was limited, so Tiamut at this point wasn't at his peak. It's been several months since I read this storyline so I might be missing something, but it'd help if the most important part had a scan and citation for it.
  1. Then later on we truly see him capable of affecting Multiversal Eternity (Fantastic Four Volume 3 issue 49)
Click to expand...
They're just summoning Multi-Eternity and summoning Galactus out of him.
  1. Griever at the End of All Things is explicitly implied to have been waiting for Franklin's powers to run out before making a move, implying she wouldn't have if Franklin still had his powers at their full extent (Fantastic Four (Vol 6) #2)
Click to expand...
This is because the Future Foundation were using the powers of the entire Beyonder Race from Molecule Man to recreate the cosmos, and she was waiting for them to deplete that power.
  1. Young Franklin turns a celestial energy attack to flowers. The Celestials also describe Franklin as "Beyond Omega". (Fantastic Four #13).
Click to expand...
This is fine too.
  • Doctor Doom states that the Cormurant comes from a Higher Plane of Existence entirely than Earth 616 in Vol 6 issue 25. Reed also believed that Cormurant was beyond an Omega Level threat. Cormurant confirms this in Vol 6 issue 43
Click to expand...
Cormurant straight up acknowledges that Franklin was the only being who could possibly fight him in 616
Click to expand...
The terms used are simply "plane of existence" and "Universe," not Earth-616.
Wrath stated he survived a blast that eradicated 9/10ths of Creation
Click to expand...
What? That 9/10's statement applies to the base Universe, and is currently the main anti-feat for the Universe being finite.
Wrath empowered by the M'krann Crystal that he himself destroyed before being amped by them, still was being defeated by Comurant until he used the one weakness he built into Cormurant just in case of this exact situation
Click to expand...
So many things wrong here (though I already explained the main issue with Cormorant above).

Wrath of the Reckoning wasn't "being defeated by Cormorant," Cormorant equipped with blades, landed a single cheap shot at his armor that knocked him to the floor, and achieved nothing beyond that seeing as the armor was unscathed, his blade was destroyed on impact with that armor, and the part of his armor he struck didn't even have the M'kraan Crystal on it.

That 'weakness' was not some kind of durability-bypassing one, it's that Cormorant's body is forced to obey Wrath's commands since he was formerly their underling. That weakness has no impact on Cormorant's durability, which Wrath crushes with purely physical force.

You didn't provide a tier for the M'kraan Crystal, whose durability scales drastically below it's attack potency. Regardless, the main purpose of the M'kraan Crystal armor was to charge and serve as an eventual bomb, and he occasionally used individual crystals as projectiles for attacks. Its mere presence didn't automatically amplify all his stats, and the Fantastic Four alone challenged him harder than Cormorant did.
 
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