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Marvel's "At least 2-C, possibly 2-A" Upgrade.

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ok so I just went trhough the thread and we have this

agreeing with the thread(2A): 6 people, that being

Code: 
me, Crabwhale, Hykuu, NeoZex6399, RM97,Elizio33

ageing with thread(2C possibly 2A): 1 person

CrimsonStarFallen

disagreeing with thread: 0

we just need someone like sandman32 to give his two cents and we might just get this passed through
 
True... We still need the Bigger Mods to come and give feedback... Though Crab helping with his definitely is... grand . I personally think "At least 2-A" is good, considering the abundance of evidence that some of these constructs contain higher-dimensions ludicrously above 4-D to an otherwise Unknown extent [Hyperspace,Negative Zone,Dark Dimension,Nexus,Tower , Otherworld] within the 2-A Multiverse...So yeah....
 
Honestly 2-A seems pretty possible to me. I don't think Skyfathers or Hell-Lords should receive a possibly 2-A rating however. But for the others this could work. It would be better if you added all the scans though, that way the concrete evidence is here.

@Sir sun man

Sandman31 already replied above, he said 2-A might be fine but would prefer if scans were added.
 
I already did the cataloging for the likes of Roma, whose fodder to those who are currently At least 2-C (calls Celestials "All Powerful"which means they should be likely superior to everything Roma encountered prior... including the Phoenix Universal Avatar who immensely surpasses Roma with a lot more Amps plus the Lighthouse and was the one who did the Tower feat in Captain Britain , oneshotted by Abraxas with a kiss , considers Jaspers weaker incarnation as too powerful , calls Universal Eternity the embodiment of all that is was or ever will be despite knowing of Otherworld and the Tower... etc...).

She's one of the very key components of the scaling... It isn't close to finished.... But with her being viewed as the equivalent of weak in so many comics in comparison to the 2-Cs it should be noted.
 
Bump. Let us note that the cosmology of the verse is much, much greater than what I have right now.... I'm just not certain if I should reveal all that right now or not... Because this is a Tier 2 Upgrade... Not Tier 1. I'll have the information on that on standby once this upgrade is finalized.

In the meantime I'd like to say I believe the Hellords only receive the 2-A Upgrade within their own realms (I.E: Mephisto) ... The possible exception is Dormammu.

Also in all honestly shouldn't Dweller in Darkness' feat be considered Tier 2-A ? That was the Nexus of All Realities. Even affecting it minimally should grant the tier solely due to how far above baseline the 2-A level is in Marvel.
 
Setsuna tenma said:
Wasn't the nexus of reality accepted to be tier 1?
Click to expand...
Lets not go into that yet Its gona complecate things and put this thread to a limbo Lets leave that descusion for another day
 
Again... as far as the Nexus... It was accepted as High 1-B a long time ago by Azathoth and Sandman... But let's not go into that as that will complicate this thread and turn it into what it wasn't intended to become... Because that info will change literally all the feats included here to that level and we don't need to touch that until 2-A is accepted.. But yes it was accepted a while back.
 
As POTM said, we need scans with evidence that he can evaluate.
 
I showed the Roma stuff... Which the ones such as At least 2-C scale ridicutously above it. I'm working on cataloging all the stuff in that same section so that it's one thing.

My bigger question: Let's just say that a Universe within an Infinite Quantum Multierse that Branches off into Infinite Universes every Moment (like Marvel) contains Tier 2 or Tier 1 Worlds/Places. If the branching off starts, would those worlds/places be branched off as well ? If so that would result in far higher degrees of 2-A than what is currently available
 
@Seed

I think what Ant means is that everything under the "Supporting scaling feats" section in the OP should preferably have scans. You already posted the Roma stuff but not everything with Franklin, Post-Retcon MM and Beyonder, etc. I'm sure many people in this thread already know much of what you're talking about, but it would be better to actually have all of the evidence here to look at.
 
I'll be focusing on the feats one set at a time... So it won't clutter that section... So it's easier to evaluate... Starting with the Revision Wave since it's one of the more direct feats rather than implications :

The Revision Wave was going to collaps All Reality into a single timestream . This scales to Franklin as not only did he jumped headfirst into it... But also Franklin was stated to have stopped it himself ... So yeah it's apparent he stopped this from happening. He also isn't fatigued by this at all... Which is interesting so this proves he likely didn't use as much effort as when he fought the Mad Celestials Yes there are Tier 1 cosmology that would upgrade the feat massively but it isn't important for this "Revision" (Get it because we are talking about "Revisions?"... Okay I'll stop)

Another important thing... Franklin gets FAR stronger over the course of time. Nathaniel mentioned it in the Hyperstorm Arc [He's able to defend from his powers one week... And the next finds his power overwhelming] and it's pretty consistent and explains his rapidly growing power. When his Full Potential was drawn out as a Young Child , he was only stronger than Mephisto at his Full Potential. After a set period of time... He's able to defend against the Mad Celestials ... Then in the Heroes Reborn Arc... He's seen as so powerful that by sensing a casual war cry states that (when previously they thought his FP was merely Celestial Level) that they can effortlessly destroy them... With an extremely low percentage of his power... Especially considering he was supposedly depowered.

Also being treated as superior to Tiamut... the Strongest Celestial (at the time before the Mad ones) by statements... during the aftermath of Heroes Reborn. That is literally days after Asheena call him her comparative equal. That's before the Mad Celestials BTW

Also... When he was depowered and even restricted by Valeria ... He literally harmed a Multi-Abstract weeks after burning his power out... Again incredibly casual feat considering they weren't even aiming for Multi-Eternity & Infinity Fusion... they were trying to revive Galactus.. After Heroes Reborn and Mad Celestials

Which actually makes him able to help re-create Multi-Eternity and the whole Marvel Universe in the Secret Wars at least 2-3 years later after the other suff not a stretch since through power upgrades went from Universal Abstract Level to > a Dual Multiversal Abstract Level in literally a few months... So him being somewhat relative to Molecule Man ... isn't a stretch of the imagination since it's backed up by lore that he grows in power astronomically quickly. Especially backed up by Griever's statement of Franklin being a threat and both capable of manipulating the Multiverse... Meaning she's comparing them both as "comparable".

I'm not certain how exactly we scale such varying stats... Maybe have keys based on different points in history or something...But it's clear as cut he actually gets far stronger over the course of time. Doesn't apply to Adult FR sadly as they make it clear what happens to one doesn't effect the other...
 
Oh BTW the Overspace Scan is noted below:

Right here

I mentioned the Tier 1 Stuff in the OP so when this is evaluated we can just go straight to that without any problems... Unless saved for another time... So if you want to see it ahead of time more power to you... But for now let's go over another "set" of the scans requested... specifically by Sandman

Strange Tales Stuff / Heroes Reborn

Because yes two versions of the events happened, one in canon and the other in DeMatteis' Vision... So it kinda works to use:

The Nexus of All Realities feat is easy. It was described below While Strange stated it was a theory., it was based on him recognizing that the feat of returning the heroes to the verse could cause...


Again there are Tier 1 Abilities here as Dr.Strange was literally manipulating on every level of the Multiverse to keep it stable until the problem was solved... Meaning every Level of Multiverse was affected by what happened...He was also described as being capable of manipulate every facet of the Multiverse with surgeon's skill... But again we'll get to that later.

It was stated by Dr.Strange that during Man-Thing III , that the cause of the End of All Things, was caused by Counter-Earth essentially, via "Heroes of Legend" returning to the Earth 616 Reality . Meaning that, this really obscure and incredibly ridiculous set of comics did in-fact happen . Also, in Heroes Rebron, Franklin Richards + The Celestials caused this to happen. It also directly scales to At Least 2-C's such as Franklin as he was Causing the Nexus to Shatter was a Strange Tales exclusive, but here are the scans that hint he's responsible:

Specifically speaking, it was this phrase in particular which allowed it to be heavily implied.it :

Scan Stating Franklin could've returned them home by himself had he the maturity to do so: In-fact, this is even more worrysome when you consider the statement that Franklin's "Imagination" are the Outer Borders of the Negative Zone/Subspace... which if you remember exactly what the Negative Zone's/Subspace's Edges is (it's the Crossroads of Infinity).. You know this could very easily become a Tier 1 feat [I know the scans says it isn't infinite... But that is referring to Franklin's Imagination... Not the edges of Subspace / Negative Zone) But the fact his Imagination scales to the edges of Subspace easily.

We also see that Heroes Reborn Hulk was able to affect, with the energies of Heroes Reborn & Earth 616 , literally rip the edge of the Negative Zone open (which has been used interchangably with the Crossroads of Infinity before... which yes it contains Universes but like I mentioned in a hour long debate with some doesn't downgrade the Crossroads nature to anything less than 2-A)... Which due to that being the Crossroads of Infinity requires At least 2-A [If not very likely Tier 1] Level power... It also means that the energies of 616 and Heroes Reborn... Which basically borderline anyone affecting Earth 616 should scale to as it was used to do half of a Tier 2 to Tier 1 Level Feat:



Cosmic Cubes

The recent version stated that a "depowered" Cosmic Cube had the power to destroy "Infinite Universes" , and a Full Powered ONe "Destroy All Existence" Super-Adaptoid after copying a Cosmic Cube noted how if he fought Kubik "The resulting reality war would shred the fabric of all existence -- extending into infinite dimensions and adjacent universes " . This Super-Adaptoid also said he threatened all of reality and is "every reality's master" . He even said destroying the Post-Retcon Beyonder would destroy Multiversal Cosmography, which means it'd affect the whole Multiverse... Consistent with previous feats of the Cubes affecting Omniverses/Multiverses prior However the Cubes were stated to be weaker than PR Molecule Man.

Again there is Tier 1 Implications as Kubik always referred to "Dimensions" & the true "Multiverse" in the Higher-Dimensional sense, whether talking about the true nature of the Multiverse or referring to levels of infinity. Plus several Omni-Dimensional Statements about the Cube & Cosmology Stuff... He's never only referred to it as merely "universes" and that's it.
 
Bump. I also want to make mention of one thing.... Which whe this idea is fresh and doesn't (yet) jave a completed blog... I wanted to make mention of it because if this gets accepted the upgrades would go without any form of a fight...

Earth-616 by itself essentially contributed to half of a 2-A / High 1-B / 1-A Feat ( 2-A is by asssuming Subspace/Crossroads is 2-A, second is if you consider the Crossroads to contain infinite-dimensional space & the Nexus feats as High 1-B which was previously accepted anyways, the latter about 1-A is only if you consider the DeMatteis Comics canon to Marvel... As I've already made several threads evaluating the 1A feats and all of them were treated legitimate by knowledgeable sources such as Sandman and Azathoth ... which Hulk 2009 references them actually). This would change how we view the Marvel cosmic hierarchy seeing how 616 is only a reality and branches off into similar realities of comparative nature/power to it.

The above makes sense as ever since the beginning of Marvel Reed, Doom, and several minds who know the full capabilities of the Negative Zone and what it contains only views it as mery a parallel universe despite the fact the Negative Zone has to scale to it by containing it via pure size and power. Marvel offically notes the Crossroads as literally one of, if not the lowest level of the Multiverse... Even lower than the Astral Plane and Nightmare's Realm.. Which people have been able to affect for the longest..

They also treat affecting or transcending the Crossroads as a non feat even by the likes of the current "At least 2-C" level entities. We see this from Asheena , one of the alternate earths , Heroes Reborn, and even Hyperstorm whose even fodder to Galactus despite his immense power.

This would only scale to that who can affect 616, 616's branching realities as they would be comparative in energy and structure, and those capable of destroying all realities . It would also upscale to the Multiversal Abstracts... as well as most of the main universal feats that involve 616 make it so immensely consistent to levels we've neverseen before.
 
If you need scans for anything I mentioned prior to Antvasima's response I'll gladly do so... I just am not sure what to do about such a complex situation as that.
 
I respect the effort you're putting in to this but I need to say: there's a much easier way to go about providing the evidence. Rather than put a gigantic wall of text with pure links, why not just edit the OP?

For example, one claim says "Franklin Richards' Doppleganger which absorbed a small portion of his powers was causing Omni-Dimensional damage."

Just edit that sentence so it links to the relevant scan, and if there's more than one scan use imgur to make an album.

It's extremely difficult to examine evidence when it's interspersed throughout gigantic walls of interpretation, spread throughout different comments in the thread, and slow-dripped over a long period of time.

@Ant

I haven't had time to try to parse through those comments. It would be a lot easier if each piece of evidence in the OP simply linked to the required scans. Most people including me seem pretty fine with a potential 2-A upgrade, but I don't think it should happen before hard-confirming all of the actual evidence listed in the OP.
 
Hmm.... Makes sense. I'll do as much as I can tonight.

I just kind of wanted a sort of way to quantify the Heroes Reborn Return feat involving 616... But that seems to have to wait until we get this squared away.
 
@POTM

Yes, that has consistently been the problem with any suggestions for revisions that Seed has initiated.

Rather than writing walls of text with recurrently wild interpretation, he should just create lists with links for relevant scans, and let people evaluate them on their own.
 
The main problem with that is because I feel like I should give a good amount of context for the feats as some of the scans don't do that. and just display the feat .. resulting in giant walls of text.
 
Well, it causes your interpretations to drown out what is actually displayed, and also removes any interest from most of the viewers.
 
Okay @POTM & @Ant.... I'm finished. The scans are all in the OP as requested. Some images were on imgur... But most I used Ibb for. I also took out anything redundant that isn't related to the current task of determing if 2-A is legitimate... Because without that the other stuff I was going to present is borderline useless.
 
Okay. Let's wait for POTM to evaluate it.
 
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