Marvel gods revision (BDE Type 2)

[Antvasima]

It seems like we convinced Goofy to make some adjustments in that regard.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

It seems like we convinced Goofy to make some adjustments in that regard.

For what?

 

[Antvasima]

For that Asgard and other realms filled with deities have physical manifestations that are frequently visited by mortals, which are not remotely the same as their full abstract states, which do not scale to mortals who visit the physical manifestations of Marvel deity realms and fight lower manifestations of deities there.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

For that Asgard and other realms filled with deities have physical manifestations that are frequently visited by mortals, which are not remotely the same as their full abstract states, which do not scale to mortals who visit the physical manifestations of Marvel deity realms and fight lower manifestations of deities there.

Ok, but will Firestorm agree to this?

 

[Antvasima]

For that Asgard and other realms filled with deities have physical manifestations that are frequently visited by mortals, which are not remotely the same as their full abstract states, which do not scale to mortals who visit the physical manifestations of Marvel deity realms and fight lower manifestations of deities there.

Ok, but will Firestorm agree to this?

@Firestorm808

 

[Firestorm808]

At this time, I am hesitant to give a definitive vote yet. I would like to hear @Ultima_Reality and @Agnaa's current take on the given context and scans.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

At this time, I am hesitant to give a definitive vote yet. I would like to hear @Ultima_Reality and @Agnaa's current take on the given context and scans.

@Ultima_Reality @Agnaa

Your help would be appreciated here.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Agnaa @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Everything12 @Ovy7 @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @RatherClueless @GrathOfLux @Udlmaster @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeThree @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @Catzlaflame @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Eseseso @Excellence616 @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @PrinceofPein @LordTracer @ProfectusInfinity @Maverick_Zero_X @Dark-Carioca @ObberGobb @DarkDragonMedeus @FinePoint @SamanPatou @Starter_Pack

We would greatly appreciate some input here.

 

[Udlmaster]

Yeah, I agree;

You missed a little bit in relation to Gaea too;

Yuanshi Tianzun emerged from Wuji, the primordial nothingness before Yin and Yang

Gaea is Yin in equal opposition to the Demiurge who is Yang.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Yeah, I agree;

You missed a little bit in relation to Gaea too;

Yuanshi Tianzun emerged from Wuji, the primordial nothingness before Yin and Yang

I don't really use guidebooks. I remember this was used a lot.

Gaea is Yin in equal opposition to the Demiurge who is Yang.

This was somewhat mentioned.

 

[Udlmaster]

I don't really use guidebooks. I remember this was used a lot.

This was somewhat mentioned.

Yeah, for the most part about the Gods, unless a character is prattling on about lore and exposition, that sort of knowledge is usually not said because "who'd know?"

 

[PrinceofPein]

Well I read through everything and I will have to say the inconsistencies(antifeat against R>F) is something that we cannot just sweep under like they never happened, so I have to disagree

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Well I read through everything and I will have to say the inconsistencies(antifeat against R>F) is something that we cannot just sweep under like they never happened, so I have to disagree

The full divinity of the Gods being an actual solid definition and staple for R>F. The inconsistencies as you aforementioned does not apply to them at all within that state(Their true essence literally being a near-perfection description which you seem to somehow overlook) at best just the avatar or the shape they take.

 

[PrinceofPein]

The full divinity of the Gods being an actual solid definition and staple for R>F. The inconsistencies as you aforementioned does not apply to them at all within that state(Their true essence literally being a near-perfection description which you seem to somehow overlook) at best just the avatar or the shape they take.

This is untrue, so far here are the only 2 scans that you claim supports supports R>F.

There is this scan @Eseseso posted
the one of Mayep stating that time cannot contain him and that normal reality is like a "painting on the cave".
First time not containing someone is not 1-A or R>F related, and the statement is "You draw Gods on the walls of your cave, but you cannot grasp my divinity, you are the painting in a cave" Leaving the fact that he is literally physically duking it out with spiderman here, this doesn't suggest R>F.
And you posted an additional scan of Thor, I do not even know what the scan is supposed to prove, but if you are saying Thor says he inhabits the material world, material world should mean real world in this case Earth/Asgard.

Every other scan is simply something about Gods being outside time or space e.t.c., this are do not mean R>F in the slightest

And before you say it is only their spirit/true form. Here Loki was in his spirit form saying he can use a fraction of this true form essence and Dr strange could still hold out, and yes a fraction of 1-A is 1-A, as 1-A cannot be watered down to become non 1-A.
That aside the domain of the Gods gets travelled to by Non 1-A, Gods gets put on their asses by non 1-A. And your claim of some of this being avatar easily gets refuted by the facts that this avatar are powered by supposed "1-A divinity" in this case would make it 1-A too.


The point is I disagree because.
1. You have not even actually proved any R>F between the Gods and the world
2. There are too many antifeats against R>F
3. Non 1-A, can never affect 1-A. Simply put, superman can never hurt me cause he is something I read as a drawing.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

This is untrue, so far here are the only 2 scans that you claim supports support R>F.

There is this scan @Eseseso posted
the one of Mayep stating that time cannot contain him and that normal reality is like a "painting on the cave".
First time not containing someone is not 1-A or R>F related, and the statement is "You draw Gods on the walls of your cave, but you cannot grasp my divinity, you are the painting in a cave" Leaving the fact that he is literally physically duking it out with spiderman here, this doesn't suggest R>F.
And you posted an additional scan of Thor, I do not even know what the scan is supposed to prove, but if you are saying Thor says he inhabits the material world, material world should mean real world in this case Earth/Asgard.

Precisely what you point out is precisely when there not in their full divinity. They point out “how” and “what” they truly are especially for Thor’s case but in how they appear is exactly why they described what they truly are. Again you look a simple concept, but more importantly, you're skipping context.

Every other scan is simply something about Gods being outside time or space e.t.c., this are do not mean R>F in the slightest

Not, but they are exclusively connected since R>F grants 1-A in the same vein beings with 1-A have BDE(Type 2). I don't see how you miss the points which are themselves independent of R>F

And before you say it is only their spirit/true form. Here Loki was in his spirit form saying he can use a fraction of this true form essence and Dr strange could still hold out, and yes a fraction of 1-A is 1-A, as 1-A cannot be watered down to become non 1-A.
That aside the domain of the Gods gets travelled to by Non 1-A, Gods gets put on their asses by non 1-A. And your claim of some of this being avatar easily gets refuted by the facts that this avatar are powered by supposed "1-A divinity" in this case would make it 1-A too.

Rarely are people actually going to these 1-A realms often enough. Typically, a lot of the times as mentioned its plot contrived since story in this case would be more important than proving a scaling point of view. That doesn't even discredit full divinity as they exist independently of their environment since they purely exist as story and aren't tethered to mortal coils.

The point is I disagree because.
1. You have not even actually proved any R>F between the Gods and the world
2. There are too many antifeats against R>F
3. Non 1-A, can never affect 1-A. Simply put, superman can never hurt me cause he is something I read as a drawing.

1. These examples are “R>F.” All I saw from your reasoning just further support it since you think “interaction with lower beings” in their cases were physical despite them clearly not being in their full divinity. That's obviously the case for Spider-Man but somehow you miss the easy context.

2. There’s good grounds for explanation and there really isn't. Its more consistent to say that the beings that can travel and access the realms aren't normal, have amps, or a boost in that specific storyline. There's barely any true good examples of anti-feats.

3. Your example is atrocious and not at all describing anything precise. Since your example hinges on metatextual, not metaphysical especially since our definition of R>F is quite specific but has space for leeways. Now about real-life examples of reading comics which the comics themselves have made fun with countless satire.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I am willing to say Low 1-A for the avatars and the realms and full 1-A for their God’s full divinity.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Rarely are people actually going to these 1-A realms often enough. Typically, a lot of the times as mentioned its plot contrived since story in this case would be more important than proving a scaling point of view. That doesn't even discredit full divinity as they exist independently of their environment since they purely exist as story and aren't tethered to mortal coils.

Going to this realm as mortals is exactly what makes it non 1-A.

Not, but they are exclusively connected since R>F grants 1-A in the same vein beings with 1-A have BDE(Type 2). I don't see how you miss the points which are themselves independent of R>F

1-A is only BDE due to the context of it transcending everything in the story due to seeing it as fiction. So the main thing to prove is R>F, which you haven't

1. These examples are “R>F.” All I saw from your reasoning just further support it since you think “interaction with lower beings” in their cases were physical despite them clearly not being in their full divinity. That's obviously the case for Spider-Man but somehow you miss the easy context.

Actually what I mean by point 1 is that you have not shown actually prove of R>F. My second point is talking about anti feats.

2. There’s good grounds for explanation and there really isn't. Its more consistent to say that the beings that can travel and access the realms aren't normal, have amps, or a boost in that specific storyline. There's barely any true good examples of anti-feats.

Again, you cannot sweep antifeats under the rugs and you cannot travel between a 1-A realm and non 1-A realm, your existence needs to become 1-A itself.

3. Your example is atrocious and not at all describing anything precise. Since your example hinges on metatextual, not metaphysical especially since our definition of R>F is quite specific but has space for leeways. Now about real-life examples of reading comics which the comics themselves have made fun with countless satire.

Then you do not understand what R>F is, it is not satire, that is exactly what it has to be, you can ask anyone with knowledge on it if you will not believe me. it has to be exactly as what number 3 example it.

Knowing how it goes, I will decline to argue any further and just ask someone with tagging power, call staffs which are knowledgeable on this to come and comment her (Ultima, DT, Agnaa e.t.c.)

 

[Da3ggman]

We should probably compile all anti-feats of Asgard and such to really see the “scale” of them and how consistent it is.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Going to this realm as mortals is exactly what makes it non 1-A.

We can settle the realm as Low 1-A.

1-A is only BDE due to the context of it transcending everything in the story due to seeing it as fiction. So the main thing to prove is R>F, which you haven't

You say this but the literal analogy suggests otherwise. I don't know what you paint as “R>F” but it's literally explained that “divinity” is beyond the mortals(In the most obvious case of R>F). Given that the gods don't usually show up in their full form since their inner essence isn't a physical thing to begin with. You're tangent and prepositioning something that's not even a good point to begin with.

Actually what I mean by point 1 is that you have not shown actually prove of R>F. My second point is talking about anti feats.

The proof is in the pudding which is literally in the scans themselves. You counting them as an anti-feat by separating whats makes divinity as opposed to just seeing a physical interaction when they're not in their full divinity which is a separate matter and doesn't discount R>F. I don't know how this is hard for you to understand.

Again, you cannot sweep antifeats under the rugs and you cannot travel between a 1-A realm and non 1-A realm, your existence needs to become 1-A itself.

I don't plan to undermine such things, you're just blowing it out of portion. With that being said we can settle for Low 1-A still due to BDE.

Then you do not understand what R>F is, it is not satire, that is exactly what it has to be, you can ask anyone with knowledge on it if you will not believe me. it has to be exactly as what number 3 example it.

You're fallacious interpretation is certainly a sight to behold. It has nothing to do with our standards being “satire” it had to due with the comics themselves playing with the trope in exactly when they truly use it as a clear indication with the true nature of God and not a metatextual joke. You misunderstand half the things I said and I suggest you improve your reading comprehension or else it feels like I'm talking to a stone wall.

Knowing how it goes, I will decline to argue any further and just ask someone with tagging power, call staffs which are knowledgeable on this to come and comment her (Ultima, DT, Agnaa e.t.c.)

You miss the part where Antvasima tagged the mods like three times already.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

We should probably compile all anti-feats of Asgard and such to really see the “scale” of them and how consistent it is.

They scale off being BDE in nature but since the topic itself is hot. I decided to revise the tier from 1-A to Low 1-A. However, I'm keeping the true nature of the gods which is external to their realms.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I have a question, how would this work for the other 9 realms? More specifically Valhala, Hel and the 10th realm? Those 3 realms specifically have a weird relation with Asgard.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I have a question, how would this work for the other 9 realms? More specifically Valhala, Hel and the 10th realm? Those 3 realms specifically have a weird relation with Asgard.

They all scale to Low 1-A.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

1-A Gods in their true essence as there's a scan saying they transcends dimensions entirely and they view lower beings as paintings in caves as they're in all places and unbound by time.

1

2

Or you can always read the entire blog which has over 100 scans of BDE. However, I think the first two examples are easily qualify for 1-A.

The first statement is valid. The second one isn't, since in context, the "Paintings on a cave" statement is meant to correlate to higher dimensionality in specific, seen by how Wayeb is stated to come from "the multidimensional heavens" (And how the general theme of that comic is higher dimensions).

Overall I'm pretty skeptical of this entire thing. The essence of the Gods being abstract and above the multiverse and so on is fine by me. Asgard and other godly realms being Low 1-A is not, seeing as all the statements in support of that in the blog are just the several "Beyond space and time" blurbs that you usually get describing them. The issues with that are pretty obvious, namely:

1) It's assuming that they're referring to the realms existing beyond the space and time of all the contents of Earth-616, which is hardly justified. There's a number of places that are stated to exist beyond space and time and yet explicitly are still inside of Earth-616 (The Negative Zone [save that one time it was briefly portrayed as a multiversal realm] and Eternity's realm both come to mind), so those scans without further context (of which there is none here) could well just be saying they're outside the spacetime of the earth dimension.

The OP does seem to try to give a justification for assuming this:

Its rather easy since the statement already clarifies the matter. In the current Cosmology blog, it was accepted that 616 contains infinite dimensions mentioned in several times. There's the added incentive of worlds within worlds holding the same layering of infinite dimensions, these realms are at least at the edge or completely outside and transcending these level. Rather than worlds within worlds of the material plane, they are in the next level of existence far beyond it as I've shown several examples in my blog post. Essentially, outside space and time are outside all the layering of the mundane plane of existence which ranges from High 1-B to High 1-B+.

Which doesn't actually justify anything. It just asserts it's the case while referring the reader back to the blog (Which doesn't actually succeed at justifying anything)

2) It's assuming that "beyond space and time" refers to superiority over spacetime, which exactly none of the scans given suggest. If anything there's counter-evidence to this in the comics, here for example, where the World-Serpent spans the gap between Asgard and Earth and is obviously the same size on both ends, instead of it being infinitely bigger than the Earth.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for helping out, Ultima.

 

[Udlmaster]

It's assuming that "beyond space and time" refers to superiority over spacetime, which exactly none of the scans given suggest. If anything there's counter-evidence to this in the comics, here for example, where the World-Serpent spans the gap between Asgard and Earth and is obviously the same size on both ends, instead of it being infinitely bigger than the Earth.

Mmm, so you think it's more a Doctor Who effect? Something that's in Reality but outside of the Time and Space by nature, not by scale (like the TARDIS)?

 

[Eseseso]

Ultima makes sense. Only the true inner essence of the Gods should be 1-A.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Ultima makes sense. Only the true inner essence of the Gods should be 1-A.

Just to be clear, is there any particular plane within the cosmology this 'true form' is argued as being located in?

 

[Eseseso]

Just to be clear, is there any particular plane within the cosmology this 'true form' is argued as being located in?

The Elder Gods would all be superior to the true forms of the Gods at the absolute minimum.

Same with Those Who Sit Above in Shadows.

Other than that? No idea.

 

[ObberGobb]

I really don't like this Avatar/Emanation idea, I don't think its narratively supported at all, at least for Asgardians. We know that Thor's physical power and his divine power are different based on that one scan of his divinity transcending dimensions," but we have no indication that the is some incorporeal True Form of Thor that makes a physical Avatar to inhabit. Since Thor already has a 1-A rating on his profile, I think that instead of creating an Avatar/True Form split, we should just say something like Low 1-C, 1-A with Divinity" or something like that.

I also don't really know if every Asgardian should be considered to be the same, since sons and daughters of Odin (including Loki, even though they are adopted) are said to be much more powerful than any other Asgardian. Is there any evidence of Warriors Three level characters having 1-A power?

Also, if Asgard is being revised, where does that leave the Low 1-C rating for Heralds? If Asgard being 1-A isn't accepted since normal characters can interact with it, doesn't that also call into question being Low 1-C?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Overall I'm pretty skeptical of this entire thing. The essence of the Gods being abstract and above the multiverse and so on is fine by me. Asgard and other godly realms being Low 1-A is not, seeing as all the statements in support of that in the blog are just the several "Beyond space and time" blurbs that you usually get describing them. The issues with that are pretty obvious, namely:

Yeah, gods being Low 1-A was also fishy. Low 1-C is still fine since they're on the scale or higher than the heralds. Though, my point for true essence for the gods being 1-A seems favorable to you since that's my main focus of this thread.

2) It's assuming that "beyond space and time" refers to superiority over spacetime, which exactly none of the scans given suggest. If anything there's counter-evidence to this in the comics, here for example, where the World-Serpent spans the gap between Asgard and Earth and is obviously the same size on both ends, instead of it being infinitely bigger than the Earth.

I don't really see it as a problem with these isolated example. It just happens with the inconsistencies in comics. However, since this point about High 1-B+ is secondary and I don't feel the need to argue tediously then perhaps leaving it as is fine.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I really don't like this Avatar/Emanation idea, I don't think its narratively supported at all, at least for Asgardians. We know that Thor's physical power and his divine power are different based on that one scan of his divinity transcending dimensions," but we have no indication that the is some incorporeal True Form of Thor that makes a physical Avatar to inhabit. Since Thor already has a 1-A rating on his profile, I think that instead of creating an Avatar/True Form split, we should just say something like Low 1-C, 1-A with Divinity" or something like that.

That's fine.

I also don't really know if every Asgardian should be considered to be the same, since sons and daughters of Odin (including Loki, even though they are adopted) are said to be much more powerful than any other Asgardian. Is there any evidence of Warriors Three level characters having 1-A power?

Obviously, the children of the monarch is more powerful but it doesn't discredit the problem with god’s in general being myth and story-controlling over some form of concept in its purest(despite the anti-feats and the horrible inconsistencies). I don't see why all gods must be isolated in this specific reasoning it seems rather odd only Thor, Loki, Angela, etc gets it.

Also, if Asgard is being revised, where does that leave the Low 1-C rating for Heralds? If Asgard being 1-A isn't accepted since normal characters can interact with it, doesn't that also call into question being Low 1-C?

I've already adjusted the rating to Low 1-A prior to Ultima, but I want this thread to go on. So probably just Low 1-C.

 

[Firestorm808]

Thank you very much for helping out, Ultima.

Ultima's view is about the same sentiment I had earlier. There's not enough justification for the proposed realms being 1-A. The essence of the gods are a different matter for discussion.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Ultima's view is about the same sentiment I had earlier. There's not enough justification for the proposed realms being 1-A. The essence of the gods are a different matter for discussion.

You don't have a problem with Low 1-C, 1-A for the gods?

 

[Firestorm808]

You don't have a problem with Low 1-C, 1-A for the gods?

If Base Thor can hurt other legitimate 1-A beings under certain circumstances, then there has to be some 1-A metaphysical aspect of his divine powers for that to happen in the first place. IE: A 1-A Godhead, essence, etc. The specifics are unclear to me at this time.

 

[Udlmaster]

You don't have a problem with Low 1-C, 1-A for the gods?

How would this affect people scaling to the Gods?

For example, Wolverine in recent comics has been shacking around with Gods like Hercules and been fighting his enemies with him, including ones that knocked him (Herc) out in a single hit.

Naturally, a lot of other Heroes scale too, Storm is easily up there, especially now that she's being more and more considered a Goddess above and beyond the Asgardians, hurting Knull with her non-Divine lightning and being considered to be the only threat to him left before Thor showed up.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

How would this affect people scaling to the Gods?

They scale to them since a lot of beings are herald tiers.

For example, Wolverine in recent comics has been shacking around with Gods like Hercules and been fighting his enemies with him, including ones that knocked him (Herc) out in a single hit.

He's already Low 1-C.

Naturally, a lot of other Heroes scale too, Storm is easily up there, especially now that she's being more and more considered a Goddess above and beyond the Asgardians, hurting Knull with her non-Divine lightning and being considered to be the only threat to him left before Thor showed up.

Yeah, she's powerful. So she'd scale to them, if not above.

 

[Udlmaster]

He's already Low 1-C.

Gooood....

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

The original post has been updated to fit the overall consensus here. Any more thoughts can be added to the mix here.