Marvel Comics: Rune King Thor upgrade

[Marvel_Champion_07]

The Black Winter has nothing to do with LB Galactus though?

I think they mean TWSAIS scaling above The Black Winter

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Well, we have 9 agrees and 1 mod agree

If i assume @Eficiente and @Antvasima dont agree with this upgrade

 

[Antvasima]

I thought the scaling to Lifebringer Galactus was the main source of the scaling, not the possibility of them being Beyonders.

No, these are two different versions of Thor. Rune King Thor explicitly transcended far beyond regular skyfather level, and likely scales from the Beyonders, whereas herald Thor is just regular Odinforce Thor with the power of a herald of Galactus added to his own, and Galactus supposedly powering up to a Low 1-A scale from eating 5 extra nourishing planets doesn't make any sense either, especially as Odinforce Thor kept continuously beating him up during the story.

 

[Antvasima]

As far as the RKT upgrades go, I agree with Low 1-A. We should also create pages for TWSAIS as a reference

I support solid Low 1-A based on the being very strongly implied to be Beyonders, existing in a realm that hurts Lifebringer Galactus, and being way above the Black Winter, which destroy the Sixth Multiverses and threatened to destroy the current.

That is probably fine then.

I am neutral on anything to do with Herald of Galactus Thor, because frankly I don't think it meets the notability requirements. It wasn't present for very many issues, and the storyline it was part of was nowhere near as important for Thor's character as Ragnarok was.

Yes, agreed. It was a weird event all in all, and only a brief extra power-up.

I think that we currently mention scaling Odinforce Thor to a well-nourished regular Galactus in Thor's VSBW profile page though. Should we continue to do so?

 

[Antvasima]

What i wanted to say was
So, will these be the ratings?

I am currently fine with the following ratings for Rune King Thor:

Low Outerverse level (Was equal or superior to Those Who Sit Above In Shadow, as they directly referenced his strength when bargaining with him, and acknowledged his power to the point of proposing him to join them. Those Who Sit Above In Shadows view Odin and Asgardian gods as mere toys and exist inside The Land of Couldn't-Be Shouldn't-Be, where Lifebringer Galactus can not endure for long. Loki also theorised that Those Who Sit Above In Shadows are likely Beyonders, which is consistent with them mimicking The Beyonder's most characteristic speech)

It is herald of Galactus Thor that I am uneasy with upgrading to Low 1-A, as it doesn't make nearly as much sense due to reasons I stated above, and Donny Cates has explicitly stated in answer to a fan question that he doesn't care at all about power-scaling, and would let Captain America beat up The Sentry if he wrote a fight between them.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we have 9 agrees and 1 mod agree

If i assume @Eficiente and @Antvasima dont agree with this upgrade

I agree with upgrading Rune King Thor. It is herald of Galactus Thor that I am very uneasy with.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Low Outerverse level (Was equal or superior to Those Who Sit Above In Shadow, As that they directly referenced his strength when bargaining with him, and acknowledged his strength to the point of proposing him to join them. Those Who Sit Above In Shadows view Odin and Asgardian gods as mere toys and exist inside The Land of Couldn't-Be Shouldn't-Be, where Lifebringer Galactus can not endure for long. Loki also theorised that Those Who Sit Above In Shadows are likely Beyonders, which is consistent with them mimicking The Beyonder's most characteristic speech)

Better justification

It is herald of Galactus Thor that I am uneasy with upgrading to Low 1-A, as it doesn't make nearly as much sense due to reasons I stated above, and Donny Cates has explicitly stated in answer to a fan question that he doesn't care at all about power-scaling, and would let Captain America beat up The Sentry if he wrote a fight between them.

This could be handled in another thread, as that this thread isnt the discussion, but for now are the proposed upgrades good to go?

 

[Antvasima]

Better justification

Thank you. I made a few further sentence structure corrections in my post above.

This could be handled in another thread, as that this thread isnt the discussion, but for now are the proposed upgrades good to go?

I think so, yes.

 

[Alonik]

Shouldn't that be a solid 1-A since the Beyonders dwarfs Eternity and hence the Far Shore?

 

[Antvasima]

Isn't The Phoenix Force a part of Multiversal Eternity? It was stated to be far stronger than individual Beyonders within The White Hot Room.

Also, The Beyonders dwell within the remains of the 2nd Cosmos, and were created by the Celestials, who were created by the 1st Firmament, who is not outrageously stronger than Multiversal Eternity.

 

[Alonik]

Isn't The Phoenix Force a part of Multiversal Eternity? It was stated to be far stronger than individual Beyonders within The White Hot Room.

Also, The Beyonders dwell within the remains of the 2nd Cosmos, and were created by the Celestials, who were created by the 1st Firmament, who is not outrageously stronger than Multiversal Eternity.

No, the Phoenix Force has always transcended the Multiversal Eternity.
But I guess that's for another topic that I can elaborate on with all the evidence.

But the Phoenix that transcends the Beyonders is basically:

White Hot Room>First Layer of the Mystery where the Omega Beyonders dwell>Multiversal Eternity

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. That is odd. You will have to elaborate about that.

In any case, does the current version of multiversal Eternity even genuinely qualify for 1-A in the first place, if several levels of reality are beyond his being?

 

[Alonik]

Hmm. That is odd. You will have to elaborate about that.

In any case, does the current version of multiversal Eternity even genuinely qualify for 1-A in the first place, if several levels of reality are beyond his being?

Yes because the Far Shore is part of Eternity, and then the other layers are outside the Far Shore and thus Eternity. The Layer that transcend Eternity are supposed to be layers into 1-A

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I would appreciate further reminders about how our current scaling hierarchy works in that regard.

In any case, there is a major inconsistency if we consider most of the previous multiverses to only be Low 1-A, but the current one to be 1-A, despite that the 5th Cosmos of magic successfully restrained the 1st Cosmos (The First Firmament), and the 1st Cosmos successfully restrained the 8th Cosmos.

We need to figure out how to fix that while avoiding scaling inconsistencies at some point.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

We are talking about 7th multi-eternity here?

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. I think that the 7th Cosmos is rated as Low 1-A, and his reincarnation as the 8th Cosmos is rated as 1-A.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

I can address the Black Winter scaling stuff in another thread at some point

 

[NHTkenshin2]

If 7th eternity becomes 1-A, then the ratings of TWSAIS and RKT will definitely be 1-A, as well as most of our other Low 1-As

 

[Antvasima]

I can address the Black Winter scaling stuff in another thread at some point

Thank you. Please try to have it make logical sense and be consistent.

If 7th eternity becomes 1-A, then the ratings of TWSAIS and RKT will definitely be 1-A, as well as most of our other Low 1-As

TWSAIS, RKT, Mikaboshi, and peak Hercules, yes, but how high in reality are the conceptual aspects of Multi-Eternity, such as Chaos and Order, really established to reach? Is 1-A truly warranted for them, or would Low 1-A or High 1-B be sufficient, for example?

 

[NHTkenshin2]

TOAA will become 7 layers into 1-A soloing DCs 1-A guys

 

[Deleted member 21887]

TOAA will become 7 layers into 1-A soloing DCs 1-A guys

RKT > CAS

 

[Antvasima]

TOAA will become 7 layers into 1-A soloing DCs 1-A guys

Well, we will hopefully get some more logical DC Comics scaling in place in a while.

 

[Antvasima]

TWSAIS, RKT, Mikaboshi, and peak Hercules, yes, but how high in reality are the conceptual aspects of Multi-Eternity, such as Chaos and Order, really established to reach? Is 1-A truly warranted for them, or would Low 1-A or High 1-B be sufficient, for example?

Anyway...

 

[NHTkenshin2]

TWSAIS, RKT, Mikaboshi, and peak Hercules, yes, but how high in reality are the conceptual aspects of Multi-Eternity, such as Chaos and Order, really established to reach? Is 1-A truly warranted for them, or would Low 1-A or High 1-B be sufficient, for example?

I am not sure about these guys range extending to the far shore like eternity

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, I don't think that they do so either.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

Thank you. Please try to have it make logical sense and be consistent.

TWSAIS, RKT, Mikaboshi, and peak Hercules, yes, but how high in reality are the conceptual aspects of Multi-Eternity, such as Chaos and Order, really established to reach? Is 1-A truly warranted for them, or would Low 1-A or High 1-B be sufficient, for example?

Thank you for being reasonable as well. I wouldn't consider the upgrade unless it didn't cause any scaling problems, which this shouldn't.

 

[Alonik]

Yes. I think that the 7th Cosmos is rated as Low 1-A, and his reincarnation as the 8th Cosmos is rated as 1-A.

Thank you. Please try to have it make logical sense and be consistent.

TWSAIS, RKT, Mikaboshi, and peak Hercules, yes, but how high in reality are the conceptual aspects of Multi-Eternity, such as Chaos and Order, really established to reach? Is 1-A truly warranted for them, or would Low 1-A or High 1-B be sufficient, for example?

Honestly, I think we can do the following:

Apply the changes to Low 1-A Rune King Thor, and then slowly make revisions to the other beings. Although I think strongly you should review my sandbox on the Negative Zone, which gives the solid basis for at least High 1-B for these abstracts, Ultima for example has agreed on most of the evidence there since last year...

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for being reasonable as well. I wouldn't consider the upgrade unless it didn't cause any scaling problems, which this shouldn't.

No problem. The problem here is that Cates is self-admittedly deliberately all over the place with his comparative power levels, and doesn't make almost any sense in that regard, even though he is much more respectful to Thor's character than Jason Aaron was. He is still a far cry from Simonson, Jurgens, Straczynski, and DeFalco though.

 

[Antvasima]

Honestly, I think we can do the following:

Apply the changes to Low 1-A Rune King Thor, and then slowly make revisions to the other beings. Although I think strongly you should review my sandbox on the Negative Zone, which gives the solid basis for at least High 1-B for these abstracts, Ultima for example has agreed on most of the evidence there since last year...

Well, to explain myself, my main hangup has always been extreme inconsistencies, not high power levels in themselves. As such, it doesn't seem to make any sense to me with a High 1-B Negative Zone, given that its most powerful inhabitants are routinely defeated without too much trouble by regular superheroes.

 

[Alonik]

Well, to explain myself, my main hangup has always been extreme inconsistencies, not high power levels in themselves. As such, it doesn't seem to make any sense to me with a High 1-B Negative Zone, given that its most powerful inhabitants are routinely defeated without too much trouble by regular superheroes.

But that's just Plot Induced Stupidity, for example Superman regularly beating up New Gods that are bigger than the Multiverse after Superman himself grows up through a boom tube. Just going through a dimensional dilatation that makes you grow in size to the proper higher dimensional plane shouldn't make you have the power level of a being from that place, but that's the way it is in most of the comics, because that is PIS.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Well, to explain myself, my main hangup has always been extreme inconsistencies, not high power levels in themselves. As such, it doesn't seem to make any sense to me with a High 1-B Negative Zone, given that its most powerful inhabitants are routinely defeated without too much trouble by regular superheroes.

existing in a High 1B realm doesn`t make you High 1B.

 

[Antvasima]

But that's just Plot Induced Stupidity, for example Superman regularly beating up New Gods that are bigger than the Multiverse after Superman himself grows up through a boom tube. Just going through a dimensional dilatation that makes you grow in size to the proper higher dimensional plane shouldn't make you have the power level of a being from that place, but that's the way it is in most of the comics, because that is PIS.

The problem is that if the Negative Zone is usually just portrayed as an anti-matter universe of comparative size to the regular one, then Marvel needs to very firmly establish a retcon of this enormous scale as consistent and official before we can apply it.

existing in a High 1B realm doesn`t make you High 1B.

Not if you are just visiting it, but if every single being originating in an infinite-dimensional realm is just three-dimensional and possible to beat by regular superheroes, then something is extremely logically off with that interpretation.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Not if you are just visiting it, but if every single being originating in an infinite-dimensional realm is just three-dimensional and possible to beat by regular superheroes, then something is extremely logically off with that interpretation.

originating from a tier 1 realm doesn`t automatically make someone tier 1. Not every SMT demon is tier 1 because they come from a tier 1 realm, same with warhammer, and other verses

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, but that was not my point. My point is that every single inhabitant of this antimatter universe is just three-dimensional, and at best comparable with regular semi-powerful superheroes. Taken to this extreme it is not an exception, it is the standard.

 

[Alonik]

The problem is that if the Negative Zone is usually just portrayed as an anti-matter universe of comparative size to the regular one, then Marvel needs to very firmly establish a retcon of this enormous scale as consistent and official before we can apply it.

Not if you are just visiting it, but if every single being originating in an infinite-dimensional realm is just three-dimensional and possible to beat by regular superheroes, then something is extremely logically off with that interpretation.

Ant i'm sorry, but the negative zone is already At Least High 1-B according to Eternity profile, my sandbox just shows how the idea established by Kirby and Stan Lee holds up so far up to day, even in Ewing's cosmology by direct and solid quotes.

 

[Antvasima]

Can you provide a TLDR reminder explanation please? It doesn't seem to make any coherent logical sense whatsoever that a regular antimatter mirror universe that only has comparatively powerful inhabitants would be infinite degrees of infinity beyond the regular universe. As such, it is most likely an ill-considered throwaway mention that was never firmly officially established and adopted by the setting as a whole.

 

[Alonik]

Can you provide a TLDR reminder explanation please? It doesn't seem to make any coherent logical sense whatsoever that a regular antimatter mirror universe that only has comparatively powerful inhabitants would be infinite degrees of infinity beyond the regular universe. As such, it is most likely an ill-considered throwaway mention that was never firmly officially established and adopted by the setting as a whole.

• The the junction to everywhere is a crossroads of infinity with limitless dimensions, which are higher dimensions.

My sandbox only explains this in more depth and with several different writers, where for the most part we can see that the junction to everywhere is the concept of dimensionality and then at least High 1-B, and that part of the structure is part of the so called subspace (hyperspace) which is between the three-dimensional universe and most part of the Negative Zone.

And it also explains how the Negative Zone is not an alternate universe, but rather an plane of existence within the 616 itself, but above it.

 

[Antvasima]

But if The Junction to Everywhere is a dimensional nexus placed in-between the regular Marvel Universe and the Negative Zone, why should it scale to either of them? Also, we obviously cannot upgrade all Low 2-C Marvel Comics characters and above to High 1-B tiers or greater, due to both The Negative Zone and the regular MU being interpreted as High 1-B in scale.

 

[Alonik]

But if The Junction to Everywhere is a dimensional nexus placed in-between the regular Marvel Universe and the Negative Zone, why should it scale to either of them? Also, we obviously cannot upgrade all Low 2-C Marvel Comics characters and above to High 1-B tiers or greater, due to both The Negative Zone and the regular MU being interpreted as High 1-B in scale.

Because the Junction is a Inner structure of the Negative Zone.

Actually there are many junctions inside the Negative Zone for any n-dimensional, however the Junction to Everywhere is just the Junction for all the junctions there.

 

[LordTracer]

No, these are two different versions of Thor. Rune King Thor explicitly transcended far beyond regular skyfather level, and likely scales from the Beyonders, whereas herald Thor is just regular Odinforce Thor with the power of a herald of Galactus added to his own, and Galactus supposedly powering up to a Low 1-A scale from eating 5 extra nourishing planets doesn't make any sense either, especially as Odinforce Thor kept continuously beating him up during the story.

… I’m not talking about Herald Thor, I’m talking about Rune King Thor, the one that this thread is actually about.