Marvel Comics: Rune King Thor upgrade

[ObberGobb]

I think its more than kind of similar, it takes parts of the Beyonder's word for word. For that writer at least, I think the clear intent is to show that TWSAIS are Beyonders.

But if scaling from Lifebringer Galactus works better, that's fine too.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

A bit, controversial but can be used... Maybe?

This might be too shaky to be used, since "the fates" is a fairly common term that doesn't explicitly refer to only the Norns.

 

[Antvasima]

This might be too shaky to be used, since "the fates" is a fairly common term that doesn't explicitly refer to only the Norns.

Yes, definitely agreed. This seems like wild and very unreliable speculation.

Jim Starlin has never focused on the Norns in any of his stories, just on half-baked rationalised and embellished supremacism, nihilism, survivalism, egotism, division, conflict, and existentialism of very limited philosophical depth and understanding. He basically seems to be a wantonly destructive and inconsiderate power-mad survivalist completely stuck in his own ego, who trivialises everything completely beyond him into extremely simplified and shallow parts of himself, and he never ever truly seems to evolve beyond that stage, even after decades of experience. I have heard the term "dark muni" used about people like himself.

 

[Antvasima]

Low 1-A on the basis of being superior to Lifebringer Galactus seems fine to me, the Beyonder stuff is very meh since the only evidence is Loki’s theory and their speech being kinda similar to the Beyonder’s.

On the other hand, what else could they be in Al Ewing's rather well-defined, cohesive, and imaginative cosmology? Ewing has also defined The Beyonders as filling different types of functions depending on their individual personalities.

 

[LordTracer]

To be honest, I don’t think it matters if they’re Beyonders or not. The only evidence we have is a theory from Loki and an implication from their speech, which isn’t solid enough to use on the profiles imo, and it wouldn’t change their tiering regardless.

 

[ObberGobb]

Why wouldn't it change their tiering?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I personally do not mind considering TWSAIS to likely be Beyonders, given that Al Ewing very likely wouldn't have mentioned it otherwise, given how much work he has spent to tie together snippets of information over the decades in Marvel stories in a much more cohesive cosmology than previous, and this would in turn be sufficient to give Rune King Thor an additional "Likely Low 1-A" rating.

On the other hand, given that Lifebringer Galactus was shown to be just slightly superior to Ego Prime and Celestials, I think that the Low 1-A rating for him is far too inconsistent with and enormously higher than what he actually demonstrated in practice with the exception of his fight with Chaos and Order.

 

[LordTracer]

Why wouldn't it change their tiering?

Why… would it change it? Beyonders are still Low 1-A.

 

[ObberGobb]

What? You said that TWSAIS being Beyonders wouldn't change their tiering. Beyonders are Low 1-A, TWSAIS are currently Low 1-C. So them being Beyonders would change their tiering.

 

[LordTracer]

What? You said that TWSAIS being Beyonders wouldn't change their tiering. Beyonders are Low 1-A, TWSAIS are currently Low 1-C. So them being Beyonders would change their tiering.

I meant it wouldn’t change it from Low 1-A

 

[Eficiente]

1. God of Stories Loki hypothesised that they may be “beyonders" (Loki: Agent of Asgard #17)
2. TWSAIS speech to Odin heavily mirrored the beyonders speech
   1. "Slay your enemies and all you desire shall be yours"
   2. "Nothing you dream of is impossible for us to accomplish"

Worth a "possibly" for me. It is underwhelming, but good enough to be portrayed in profiles.

1. When loki got outside of the Multiverse, they met TWSAIS (who are already implied by Odin to exist outside all realities), Implying Those Who Sit Above In Shadow exist in the “Land of Couldn't-Be Shouldn't-Be” also known as “The Outside"
   1. Lifebringer Galactus cannot exist inside the outside for too long, it is risky to him
   2. The Outside is beyond Multi-Eternities reach (scans 1, 2 and 3 from The Ultimates Vol. 2 #100 and scans 4 and 5 from The Ultimates (2016) vol. 3 #5)

I would say that's a weakness for Galactus that TWSAIS lack. It's likely that Multi-Eternities of all characters can't do anything outside himself, but that's not to say that those who do so have as much power, like Pit the Troll and Starfox could in Thanos: The Infinity Ending.

1. Eternity states “What were the fates thinking when they let this insane travesty become realised?" when Thanos and Adam Warlock affected him and Infinity by interacting with a “Trans-dimensional nexus", Infinity states that the order that made these events occur existed on a higher level then The Living Tribunal
   1. “The Fates" here is likely reffering to The Norns, as that they have been occasionally called that
   2. TWSAIS provided The Norns with their powers, which implies that The Norns fate binds even Eternity and Infinity, and that TWSAIS are a higher order then even The Living Tribunal (Which would make sense when factoring in the possibility of TWSAIS being beyonders)

I disagree strongly with this. The "Trans-dimensional nexus" can easily be stronger than "The Fates" and TLT, then everything said would still make sense. "The Fates" (and every other character that sees over time) would allow Thanos to reach up to that point while having the ability to stop him & doing nothing, then Thanos becomes supreme and everyone now lacks the power to stop him even if they wanted (which they want). The "higher level than TLT" is just Thanos, the villain who ruined everything in that story, not "the Fates", as in The Norns, whom Eternity mentioned in a throw away comment.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, Jim Starlin's recent "Infinity" sagas seem to have happened in the own personal continuity that did not fit at all with regular Marvel canon.

 

[Eficiente]

We should collect evidence and anti-evidence (if there is either of them) for that, make a note or something out of it, and add that to the profiles that use feats from it.

 

[Alonik]

A couple of interesting additions.

• Loki claims that the Black Winter is just an Angry Jelly Baby compared to the TWSAS - Thor Vol 6 #24
• Loki God of Stories meets with the Omega Beyonders, and traps them into a narrative, the highest form of the most famours Beyonder himself ended up succumbing to the narrative force,which is Loki's power - Defenders: Beyond Vol 1 #2
  • It is nothworthy that this power of Loki held up the entire "omniverse", since the "omniverse", is a story in the point of view of the God of Stories - Loki: Agent of Asgard Vol 1 #14
  • And he held and kept the very Secret Wars event in his pocket after he reached the Outside. - Loki: Agent of Asgard Vol 1 #17 | Loki: Agent of Asgard Vol 1 #16
• The Beyonder admits that he has been outclassed by Loki. - Defenders: Beyond Vol 1 #3

Loki should scales above the 1-A White Hot Room, hence Thor should be the same:

• The White Hot Room is a Higher Layer of the Outside, which means the current profile is one layer above 1-A - Defenders: Beyond Vol 1 #2
• The Mask of Eternity matched with the White Crown Phoenix Taaia - Defenders: Beyond Vol 1 #3
• Glorian was drawing powerfrom the Beyonder - Defenders: Beyond Vol 1 #4
  • Loki was the only real threat to Glorian
  • Loki hirself was weakened by using the Mask of Eternity to face Glorian, because Glorian didn't even put up a fight against Loki
  • This is interesting because Never Queen who was the equal summon for the Glorian is the Fourth Cosmos, the Pilgrim, which sees the cosmos (Omniverse/Multiverse) as akin to fiction.
    • Also another evidence for the Never Queen seeing the Omniverse as akin to fiction - Defenders Vol 6 #4
• The Land of Couldn't-Be Shouldn't-Be is where the Tiger God comes from, and the tiger being likely a manifestion of this darkness is a force beyond the fire, in the darkness before the first flame reach, and who also slammed TAAIA as the embodment of the White Hot Room.- Defenders: Beyond Vol 1 #4
  • The Deeper Darkness, which is the Darkness before the first flame (White Hot Room), is The Land of Couldn't-Be Shouldn't-Be - is The Land of Couldn't-Be Shouldn't-Be

 

[ObberGobb]

Which version of Loki and Thor are you talking about?

 

[Alonik]

Which version of Loki and Thor are you talking about?

Rune King Thor, and Loki God of Stories, the current "manager" of the House of Ideas.

 

[Antvasima]

The current version of The Beyonder was referring to being outclassed by the full multiversal Phoenix Force in its home domain of The White Hot Room as far as I understood.

Also, the other Beyonder broke out of Loki's control over narrative as far as I recall, and The Never Queen has been established as Multiversal Eternity's equal, not somebody who perceives him as fiction.

Also, didn't Glorian create a knife to literally cut her heart out during Dan Slott's Silver Surfer run?

Anyway, Loki's former control over narrative is purely hax-based. He was nowhere near that powerful physically.

 

[Antvasima]

Rune King Thor, and Loki God of Stories, the current "manager" of the House of Ideas.

When did Loki turn into the manager of The House of Ideas? Issue 5 of the current Defenders series has not come out yet as far as I am aware.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, The Tiger God was shown as roughly equal in power to The Phoenix Force as far as I could tell.

 

[Antvasima]

A couple of interesting additions.

• Loki claims that the Black Winter is just an Angry Jelly Baby compared to the TWSAS - Thor Vol 6 #24

Probably accurate.

• Loki God of Stories meets with the Omega Beyonders, and traps them into a narrative, the highest form of the most famours Beyonder himself ended up succumbing to the narrative force,which is Loki's power - Defenders: Beyond Vol 1 #2

Well, I think that the Beyonder in question broke free. Also, even The Blue Marvel was here presented as capable of overpowering its physical form, for Al Ewing is playing very fast and loose with relative power levels as usual.

It is nothworthy that this power of Loki held up the entire "omniverse", since the "omniverse", is a story in the point of view of the God of Stories - Loki: Agent of Asgard Vol 1 #14

That is not at all what was said in the scan in question as far as I understand.

And he held and kept the very Secret Wars event in his pocket after he reached the Outside. - Loki: Agent of Asgard Vol 1 #17 | Loki: Agent of Asgard Vol 1 #16

That is not what happened. Loki just trapped the essences of the Norse gods and their enemies while they were playing out yet another Ragnarok event.

The Beyonder admits that he has been outclassed by Loki. - Defenders: Beyond Vol 1 #3

I understood it as him being outclassed by the multiversal Phoenix Force in its home domain.

Loki should scales above the 1-A White Hot Room, hence Thor should be the same:

• The White Hot Room is a Higher Layer of the Outside, which means the current profile is one layer above 1-A - Defenders: Beyond Vol 1 #2

All that was said is that The Beyonders, who were revealed to reside in the remains of The Second Cosmos, draw power from The White Hot Room, which was here described as a higher dimension than their own. Were their Concordance Engines what enabled them to destroy the Seventh Cosmos?

The Mask of Eternity matched with the White Crown Phoenix Taaia - Defenders: Beyond Vol 1 #3

Yes, but it eventually lost the fight.

Glorian was drawing powerfrom the Beyonder - Defenders: Beyond Vol 1 #4

Well, he wanted to at least, but The Beyonder seemed mostly disinterested in his efforts.

Loki was the only real threat to Glorian

Because, again, The Beyonder was mostly disinterested in what was going on at this time.

Loki hirself was weakened by using the Mask of Eternity to face Glorian, because Glorian didn't even put up a fight against Loki

Glorian was dead, depowered, and only capable of creating illusions at the time, not of warping reality.

This is interesting because Never Queen who was the equal summon for the Glorian is the Fourth Cosmos, the Pilgrim, which sees the cosmos (Omniverse/Multiverse) as akin to fiction.

• Also another evidence for the Never Queen seeing the Omniverse as akin to fiction - Defenders Vol 6 #4

Again, The Never Queen has even been severely damaged by a weapon created by Glorian in the past (before Glorian was killed and while he was drawing power from The Shaper of Worlds, if I remember correctly). She has also been firmly established as comparative to Multiversal Eternity. He is not just a figment of imagination to her.

• The Land of Couldn't-Be Shouldn't-Be is where the Tiger God comes from, and the tiger being likely a manifestion of this darkness is a force beyond the fire, in the darkness before the first flame reach, and who also slammed TAAIA as the embodment of the White Hot Room.- Defenders: Beyond Vol 1 #4

Well, they seem to be equal, as I mentioned earlier.

The Deeper Darkness, which is the Darkness before the first flame (White Hot Room), is The Land of Couldn't-Be Shouldn't-Be - is The Land of Couldn't-Be Shouldn't-Be

This is likely correct, yes.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Is The Black Winter Low 1-A or 1-A?
From what i understood the 6th cosmos is roughly equal to 8th eternity no?

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

Is The Black Winter Low 1-A or 1-A?
From what i understood the 6th cosmos is roughly equal to 8th eternity no?

Either way, if Loki was really referring to TWSAIS when he said that the Black Winter looked like a Jelly Baby, that's pretty strong supporting evidence for TWSAIS (and by extension RKT) being in the 1-A range.

 

[Antvasima]

Is The Black Winter Low 1-A or 1-A?
From what i understood the 6th cosmos is roughly equal to 8th eternity no?

As far as I recall, Donny Cates only presented The Black Winter as a universal threat, whereas the entire multiverse was never mentioned.

 

[Alonik]

As far as I recall, Donny Cates only presented The Black Winter as a universal threat, whereas the entire multiverse was never mentioned.

Multiversal, actually.

• Thor: I remember Galactus. He was immortal by any measure. He survived the death of a multiverse, the birth of another, and lived millenia beyond that. And still i looked him in the eye... And i brought that to an end | Immortal She-Hulk Vol 1 #1 September 23, 2020 - Al Ewing
• Multiverse ending calamities than those awaiting Thor... | Thor Vol 6 #5 June 24, 2020 - Donny Cates

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

The Black Winter was specifically named as what destroyed the Sixth Multiverse

 

[Antvasima]

But the first story was written by Al Ewing, not Donny Cates, and the second refers to future events after The Black Winter story.

Anyway, the problems here are the following:

Al Ewing decided to make a completely illogical retcon for Galactus as hosting the sentience of the previous multiverse, rather than universe, even though this did not fit at all with the past demonstrations of Galactus' actual power level, that there are separate versions of Galactus in most universes (and all of them definitely cannot contain a multiversal sentience within them), and that the Sixth multiverse was shown to have passed on to The Mystery in Ewings' own stories, when confronting The First Firmament, not be stuck inside of Galactus.

Donny Cates does his own thing that does not fit into Al Ewing's cosmology, so he returned to The Black Winter having destroyed the previous universe and used Galactus as a herald, and that was it.

If we consider The Black Winter as Low 1-A for having destroyed the entire Marvel multiverse, not just a single universe or all of the universes at the bottom of the multiversal hierarchy, then Thor would also scale, which would scale to all of his ongoing adversaries as well, which doesn't make any sense, so we just scaled Thor to a well-fed Galactus in lack of better options.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

But the first story was written by Al Ewing, not Donny Cates, and the second refers to future events after The Black Winter story.

Anyway, the problems here are the following:

Al Ewing decided to make a completely illogical retcon for Galactus as hosting the sentience of the previous multiverse, rather than universe, even though this did not fit at all with the past demonstrations of Galactus' actual power level, that there are separate versions of Galactus in most universes (and all of them definitely cannot contain a multiversal sentience within them), and that the Sixth multiverse was shown to have passed on to The Mystery in Ewings' own stories, when confronting The First Firmament, not be stuck inside of Galactus.

Donny Cates does his own thing that does not fit into Al Ewing's cosmology, so he returned to The Black Winter having destroyed the previous universe and used Galactus as a herald, and that was it.

If we consider The Black Winter as Low 1-A for having destroyed the entire Marvel multiverse, not just a single universe or all of the universes at the bottom of the multiversal hierarchy, then Thor would also scale, which would scale to all of his ongoing adversaries as well, which doesn't make any sense, so we just scaled Thor to a well-fed Galactus in lack of better options.

I understood in the story that Thor only scales to Low 1-A Black Winter while he's amped by a Galactus who directly stated that he was stronger than he had ever been before, and he no longer had that amp once he used the power to kill the Black Winter. It would not scale to anyone else.

 

[Antvasima]

We are talking about an Low 1-A rating. I don't think that you realise just how ridiculously high degree of infinity that really is, especially compared to the power levels actually demonstrated by the characters in the story in question.

The main problem here is likely that the intended scale of the Marvel multiverse varies greatly from writer to writer. In the 1980s and early 1990s it was legitimately a Low 1-A structure, but Jonathan Hickman merely treated it as a 2-B/finite collection of universes, whereas Al Ewing merely built on that by adding a few higher levels of reality, but certainly not an uncountably infinite number of them.

As such we end up with ridiculously extreme power level inconsistencies, as in this case for example.

 

[Alonik]

But the first story was written by Al Ewing, not Donny Cates, and the second refers to future events after The Black Winter story.

Which doesn't change anything, you would have to present at least one contradiction to say that being a different writer impacts anything here, aside from the poor reasoning "I didn't see Donny Cates say that Black Winter destroys multiverses within the comic"

The black winter is included in this quote, nonetheless it is a multiversal calamity.

Anyway, the problems here are the following:

Al Ewing decided to make a completely illogical retcon for Galactus as hosting the sentience of the previous multiverse, rather than universe, even though this did not fit at all with the past demonstrations of Galactus' actual power level, that there are separate versions of Galactus in most universes (and all of them definitely cannot contain a multiversal sentience within them), and that the Sixth multiverse was shown to have passed on to The Mystery in Ewings' own stories, when confronting The First Firmament, not be stuck inside of Galactus.

Galactus from any universe is just the original Galactus, again you are just arguing with things without context, several years before even the Abraxas arc Marvel had already established that the Galactus of the alternate universes are just manifestations through anthropomorphs.

And no, the sixth multiverse was not inside Galactus, only his heart.

Donny Cates does his own thing that does not fit into Al Ewing's cosmology, so he returned to The Black Winter having destroyed the previous universe and used Galactus as a herald, and that was it.

The funny part of this lie, is that Donny Cates and Al Ewing have actually been working with references to each other's comics for years, just getting ready for crossovers like King in Black, Banner of War, and now Thor with the Meridius arc.

I don't know where you get it from that they have contradictions, but in saying this you certainly haven't read any comic book written by Donny Cates since Venom.

 

[Alonik]

One more piece of evidence about Donny Cates quoting Black Winter as a Multiverse ending being, but obviously Antvasima will say it's only universal, because "universe", "creation", are irregular terms used as synonyms that serve as valid only in DC Comics threads.

The pair now stand before the end of the multiverse.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

"End of the multiverse" seems fairly clear

 

[Antvasima]

"End of the multiverse" seems fairly clear

Yes, but it would be far more consistent with Thor's and Galactus' demonstrated power levels to consider it as the 2-A lower part of the multiverse. Low 1-A is indescribably greater than anything that either a well-fed Galactus or a regular skyfather ever demonstrated. It doesn't make any coherent logical sense.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Guys, aren't we talking about RK Thor and the TWSAIS ? They don't need any Black Winter scaling to get this accepted

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

Guys, aren't we talking about RK Thor and the TWSAIS ? They don't need any Black Winter scaling to get this accepted

This is also true.

Yes, but it would be far more consistent with Thor's and Galactus' demonstrated power levels to consider it as the 2-A lower part of the multiverse. Low 1-A is indescribably greater than anything that either a well-fed Galactus or a regular skyfather ever demonstrated. It doesn't make any coherent logical sense.

It seems that the scaling here isn't just a well-fed Galactus, it's a Galactus who explicitly states that he's the most powerful he's ever been before. This Thor is also far above regular skyfather levels, as he was able to combat the being that destroyed the multiverse.

 

[Antvasima]

Which doesn't change anything, you would have to present at least one contradiction to say that being a different writer impacts anything here, aside from the poor reasoning "I didn't see Donny Cates say that Black Winter destroys multiverses within the comic"

We have to look at if the scale of the feats shown within a story match the power levels that you are trying to argue for, or if it fits into a greater context, and we obviously cannot upgrade every single regular skyfather in the MU to Low 1-A.

Rune King Thor was more of an unknown factor as he vastly exceeded regular skyfathers, and matched TWSAIS,who are likely Beyonders.

The black winter is included in this quote, nonetheless it is a multiversal calamity

Maybe, maybe not, but it doesn't make nearly sufficient coherent sense for my taste.

Galactus from any universe is just the original Galactus, again you are just arguing with things without context, several years before even the Abraxas arc Marvel had already established that the Galactus of the alternate universes are just manifestations through anthropomorphs.

That has never been established as far as I am aware. Just because Galactus can use the dimension of manifestations, this does not translate to all versions of Galactus being parts of a single multiversal entity.

And no, the sixth multiverse was not inside Galactus, only his heart.

Are you certain? I may misremember this part then.

The funny part of this lie, is that Donny Cates and Al Ewing have actually been working with references to each other's comics for years, just getting ready for crossovers like King in Black, Banner of War, and now Thor with the Meridius arc.

Yes, but they have also contradicted each other at times. Al Ewing had a very different interpretation of Galactus' nature and personality for example.

I don't know where you get it from that they have contradictions, but in saying this you certainly haven't read any comic book written by Donny Cates since Venom.

I have read every issue of his Thor comic, and much prefer it over Jason Aaron's systematic defilement of Thor's character.

 

[Antvasima]

Guys, aren't we talking about RK Thor and the TWSAIS ? They don't need any Black Winter scaling to get this accepted

Yes, giving RKT an "At least Low 1-C, likely Low 1-A" tier seems fine to me at least.

 

[Antvasima]

It seems that the scaling here isn't just a well-fed Galactus, it's a Galactus who explicitly states that he's the most powerful he's ever been before. This Thor is also far above regular skyfather levels, as he was able to combat the being that destroyed the multiverse.

The problem is that it doesn't make any sense for regular skyfather Thor to be upgraded by uncountably infinite degrees of infinity merely due to having the power of a herald of Galactus added to his own. So either we consider it as an extreme outlier, or we scale Thor from a well-fed Galactus, rather thAn The Black Winter itself.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I'm aware we have many stuff to talk about, but if we concentrate in getting one thing at a time we can make Marvel scaling easier, let's focus please

1. God of Stories Loki hypothesised that they may be “beyonders" (Loki: Agent of Asgard #17)
2. TWSAIS speech to Odin heavily mirrored the beyonders speech
   1. "Slay your enemies and all you desire shall be yours"
   2. "Nothing you dream of is impossible for us to accomplish"

Worth a "possibly" for me. It is underwhelming, but good enough to be portrayed in profiles.

Agree

1. When loki got outside of the Multiverse, they met TWSAIS (who are already implied by Odin to exist outside all realities), Implying Those Who Sit Above In Shadow exist in the “Land of Couldn't-Be Shouldn't-Be” also known as “The Outside"
   1. Lifebringer Galactus cannot exist inside the outside for too long, it is risky to him
   2. The Outside is beyond Multi-Eternities reach (scans 1, 2 and 3 from The Ultimates Vol. 2 #100 and scans 4 and 5 from The Ultimates (2016) vol. 3 #5)

I would say that's a weakness for Galactus that TWSAIS lack. It's likely that Multi-Eternities of all characters can't do anything outside himself, but that's not to say that those who do so have as much power, like Pit the Troll and Starfox could in Thanos: The Infinity Ending.

I would we assume that's a weakness instead of a feat ? I would agree if we had inconsistencies regarding TWSAIS scaling, but there isn't really afaik, it also fits their Beyonder possibly scaling.

Yes, giving RKT an "At least Low 1-C, likely Low 1-A" tier seems fine to me at least.

That's works for me too

 

[Hasty12345]

Might be a bit off topic, but do we not have a God of Stories Loki profile? He seems like an important character to this discussion but I couldn’t find a profile for him?

 

[NHTkenshin2]

So, we going with a Low 1-C, possibly Low 1-A?
If the black winter gets accepted it could be supporting evidence