Marvel Comics Revisions 2022.12.07

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Can anyone explain how everyone scales to 2A odin ?.

Not everyone does

Some who scale to Odin are only 3-C, since his tier is "Varies from 3-C to 2-A"

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Some who scale to Odin are only 3-C, since his tier is "Varies from 3-C to 2-A"

I personally wonder why it can't be "Varies from 2-C to 2-A" or "Varies from 3-C to 2-C to 2-A"

 

[Excellence616]

I hope this infinite strength downgrade won't affect characters like Hulk, Thor Thanos and Galactus?

3. The Infinite LS should be removed, the same Handbooks claims all Heralds to be able to lift around 100 tons, it contradicts their own information that someone whom Heralds scale to would be able to lift infinite weights. Not to mention how "infinitely massive weights" can be hyperbolic.

In Hercules' notes this should be added:

• Hercules lifted the Heavens<ref>Incredible Hercules Vol 1 121</ref>, which a Handbook exemplifies along "infinitely massive weights". This isn't used as a feat of Infinite Lifting Strength for two main reasons: It could easily be a [[hyperbole]] or go as in ever-growing. While the feat's not contradicted by what little information of it is shown in the comics where Atlas & the Heavens are shown, they say nothing of what "the Heavens" is, how much does it weight, how does the world withstand that weight on top of it, or how could it do so before Atlas lifted the Heavens; The Handbook simply applied to it its own additional information, and it actually contradicts its own narrative of character at Hercules' level being able to lift around 100 tons. This is a clear discontinuity between the Handbook's direct portrayal of the characters' Lifting Strength and the indirect portrayal of their Lifting Strength through [[powerscaling]].
  • Additionally, Hercules has previously been reminded of this labor when he lifted Godzilla to prevent him from doing a natural stomp -- not intended to be an attack, whereas Godzilla doesn't apply infinite weight into the world every time he walks. Though this might have been retconned into the labor requiring further Lifting Strength.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

To clarify, there is a class that has Marvel Heralds that exceed 100 tons from what I found online. Those are for characters that can lift from that to possibly far higher and incalculable (Hulk, Thor, Silver Surfer, Sentry, Hercules). They don't just cap at 100 tons.

 

[AndrewBennet]

Is surter Multiversal - or Multi universal ?

The order realm cuts off the 9 nine universes from rest of the multiverse in the particular story

2

The surter is only said to focus on destroying the nine realms at Ragnarok.

Can anyone clarify my doubt ?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Is surter Multiversal - or Multi universal ?

The order realm cuts off the 9 nine universes from rest of the multiverse in the particular story

2

The surter is only said to focus on destroying the nine realms at Ragnarok.

Can anyone clarify my doubt ?

Stop asking questions here. Do that at the Marvel Comics Discussion Thread

Why don't you go and look at his profile? He has his ratings and justifications laid out there

 

[Antvasima]

To clarify, there is a class that has Marvel Heralds that exceed 100 tons from what I found online. Those are for characters that can lift from that to possibly far higher and incalculable (Hulk, Thor, Silver Surfer, Sentry, Hercules). They don't just cap at 100 tons.

Even Spider-Man has supported the weight of skyscrapers and even greater weights at times.

The "Class 100" system was a very bad idea introduced by Mark Gruenwald starting with the old Marvel Comics handbooks in the early 1980s, in an overzealous apparent attempt to try to retcon and control the power scale inflation that had already happened to characters such as Thor even back then, likely since he didn't want Marvel Comics characters to all grow to Pre-Crisis Superman power levels.

Anyway, they are not accurate in the slightest in relation to feats within the stories themselves.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Even Spider-Man has supported the weight of skyscrapers and even greater weights at times.

The "Class 100" system was a very bad idea introduced by Mark Gruenwald starting with the old Marvel Comics handbooks in the early 1980s, in an overzealous apparent attempt to try to retcon and control the power scale inflation that had already happened to characters such as Thor even back then, likely since he didn't want Marvel Comics characters to all grow to Pre-Crisis Superman power levels.

Anyway, they are not accurate in the slightest in relation to feats within the stories themselves.

I mean, I know that. I'm simply saying there weren't always classified as just lifting up to 100 tons.

Besides, the claim was that ALL Marvel Handbooks claimed the Heralds max at 100 tons, which I said isn't actually true is all.

 

[Antvasima]

No they do not max at 100 tons, but they are still compared to it.

 

[Eficiente]

I just finished this blog about everyone in the Wrecking Crew, they're absolute jobbers with tons of anti-feats against being peak Herald level, but are consistently at the level of the Thing regardless of anything.

I expected chaos here while I was gone, I'm glad that didn't happen.

For the OP, I disagree with "possibly 2-C" and holding back ratings. Neutral to removing Infinite LS. I'm okay with most of the other things

Haven't read the stuff after the OP, and I don't really feel like keeping up with this CRT much. So meh

I will have to dismiss this completely due to the lack of elaboration and effort. I'm always in for a back and forward on this topics, but if it's just the equivalent of an immeasurable "I don't feel like this should be done" then I have nothing to work with.

Can anyone explain how everyone scales to 2A odin ? Odins 2A feat is based on his highest showing against surtr. He is more often portrayed as being equal to Muti galaxy -universal being ( by destroying the 10 th realm from Yggdrasil) . In Dan jurgens run Odin was not even a galaxy buster .

I don’t think everyone who is considered as equal to odin scales to his 2A key.

If you make a blog listing this in an organized way I / we will be able to see it in the future.

I hope this infinite strength downgrade won't affect characters like Hulk, Thor Thanos and Galactus?

This had me puzzled for a second, looking at those profiles they all scale to Herc's feat as I remembered, so I'm sorry but this comment is completely off. You're literally saying that you don't want them to have that removed because you don't want them to have that removed. This is fairly unacceptable.

Is surter Multiversal - or Multi universal ?

The order realm cuts off the 9 nine universes from rest of the multiverse in the particular story

2

The surter is only said to focus on destroying the nine realms at Ragnarok.

Can anyone clarify my doubt ?

It's a massive mess that goes like this; Odin scales to 2-A for other reasons here, while at the same time some of the reasons he has are wrong. The World Tree doesn't have "maybe infinite universes", as I explain here, I was going to make a blog about it. At the same time, I doubt the resilience of the World Tree as = to a multiverse with 9 universes, as even the Enchantress can destroy it, she having very underwhelming feats. But that's for the future, I need to see the tree's feats and anti-feats over the years.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Since nobody has objected to your argument for why Thor pushing the World Engine is unquantifiable, you should probably add that to the OP. Also, there's the "book of infinite pages" feat for the Asgardian monarchy you criticized in the Imgur post's comments, which we should also discuss.

 

[Excellence616]

This had me puzzled for a second, looking at those profiles they all scale to Herc's feat as I remembered, so I'm sorry but this comment is completely off. You're literally saying that you don't want them to have that removed because you don't want them to have that removed. This is fairly unacceptable

As for Hulk, he has multiple statements of infinite strength and Thor should scale to him

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Eficiente.

As for Hulk, he has multiple statements of infinite strength and Thor should scale to him

Most importantly, The Beyonder actually measured it as such.

 

[Excellence616]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @Ehnkr2beboh @Elizio33 @LordTracer @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Gasper @Maverick_Zero_X @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Vasco @Eseseso @MARVEL_Future_Fight_Gamer @Alonik @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Tllmbrg @Dark-Carioca @ObberGobb

Your help with continuing to improve the reliability of our statistics would be very appreciated here.

 

[Gasper]

I still agree with OP

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @Ehnkr2beboh @Elizio33 @LordTracer @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Gasper @Maverick_Zero_X @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Vasco @Eseseso @MARVEL_Future_Fight_Gamer @Alonik @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Tllmbrg @Dark-Carioca @ObberGobb

Your help with continuing to improve the reliability of our statistics would be very appreciated here.

I'm not gonna be following this CRT much and I don't wish to be tagged for it anymore, but my original stance on it remains firmly unchanged

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

It will be hard to remember your complaints about this specific thread though, MFFG.

 

[Excellence616]

The CRT make sense but the problem is removing the infinite strength. Even if it is removed, the rest of the characters will scale to Hulk instead. And for the possibly 2-C, some characters should have it while others shouldn't. Like Thor, Hulk, Galactus, Sentry, Silver Surfer, Thanos, etc will have 2-C while others like heralds will get possibly 2-C.

 

[Gasper]

The CRT make sense but the problem is removing the infinite strength. Even if it is removed, the rest of the characters will scale to Hulk instead. And for the possibly 2-C, some characters should have it while others shouldn't. Like Thor, Hulk, Galactus, Sentry, Silver Surfer, Thanos, etc will have 2-C while others like heralds will get possibly 2-C.

Hulk dosen't have infinite strength, in the new comics he struggled to lift something.

 

[Excellence616]

Hulk dosen't have infinite strength, in the new comics he struggled to lift something.

He had a problem with his brain. We can't just use one scene to debunk many.

 

[Excellence616]

What about him struggling to lift a mountain? Or rhe weight of the star?

Yes, but that doesn't affect him.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Hulk's strength is based on rage and Banner's willingness to cause harm. It's not fixed, so his LS should get the Varies rating like his AP and SS

If he does get Infinite LS, it would only be at his peak and most characters DO NOT SCALE to it

The CRT make sense but the problem is removing the infinite strength. Even if it is removed, the rest of the characters will scale to Hulk instead. And for the possibly 2-C, some characters should have it while others shouldn't. Like Thor, Hulk, Galactus, Sentry, Silver Surfer, Thanos, etc will have 2-C while others like heralds will get possibly 2-C.

I'm in agreement with this

 

[Antvasima]

Well, he has been measured to have potentially infinite strength, but that doesn't automatically mean that he has ever actually reached that high.

 

[Antvasima]

Hulk's strength is based on rage and Banner's willingness to cause harm. It's not fixed, so his LS should get the Varies rating like his AP and SS

If he does get Infinite LS, it would only be at his peak and most characters DO NOT SCALE to it

Yes, agreed.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody link to the Beyonder scan please?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Can somebody link to the Beyonder scan please?

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. It doesn't mention lifting strength. However, I think that another encounter with the Beyonder, and connected power measurement, happened in the Hulk's own comic book, within the Crossroads nexus reality. Can somebody try to find that as well please?

 

[Excellence616]

It says Hulk's power which will including both His AP and Lifing Strength.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, but in practice the Hulk did not demonstrate anywhere near infinite power at the time. In fact, when he later fought the Avengers (and lost), it was stated that he was weakening during the fight due to being separated from Banner, so that particular statement from The Beyonder does seem like hyperbole.

Can somebody try to find the scans for when The Beyonder encountered the Hulk in the Crossroads nexus some months earlier, and show them here as well, please?

 

[Eficiente]

And for the possibly 2-C, some characters should have it while others shouldn't. Like Thor, Hulk, Galactus, Sentry, Silver Surfer, Thanos, etc will have 2-C while others like heralds will get possibly 2-C.

Well, that's not how scaling works. Less impressive characters don't get to have a "possibly" to the stats of more impressive ones have if they do scale, unless they possibly scale. The amount of scaling they all have to each other (Every Herald) is like at least 20 times more than the 2-C feats, so they solidly scale, and the anti-feats all of them have are even more abundant for the more impressive characters, for the same reasons that make them impressive in the first place; more screen time. That's where you get things like SS getting a super amp to blow up a moon or Thor dying from a bomb that could destroy a part of the universe.

 

[Excellence616]

Yes, but in practice the Hulk did not demonstrate anywhere near infinite power at the time. In fact, when he later fought the Avengers (and lost), it was stated that he was weakening during the fight due to being separated from Banner, so that particular statement from The Beyonder does seem like hyperbole.

Can somebody try to find the scans for when The Beyonder encountered the Hulk in the Crossroads nexus some months earlier, and show them here as well, please?

Incredible Hulk Vol 1 #312

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. I thought that The Beyonder said something similar there, but I seem to have misremembered.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Hulk dosen't have infinite strength, in the new comics he struggled to lift something.

Hulk's strength varies depending on his anger. His strength is infinite at peak, and he wasn't at peak then. Also, people with infinite strength can still struggle to lift something that scales above baseline infinite mass.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

He struggles to lift stuff like buildings and mountains. He himself also never showed infinite lifting strength. I disagree with any Heralds having infinite strength.

Yes, he struggles to lift stuff like buildings and mountains because Hulk typically isn't angry enough to get any higher and also holds back a lot. Also, we still haven't addressed the "book of infinite pages" feats from Thor Vol 6 #10 and Thor #8 (2020).

 

[Excellence616]

He struggles to lift stuff like buildings and mountains. He himself also never showed infinite lifting strength. I disagree with any Heralds having infinite strength.

He has stellar lifting strength but still struggle to lift a building and a mountain
Does this means we should downgrade him just because he struggle to lift a building or mountain?

 

[Gasper]

He has stellar lifting strength but still struggle to lift a building and a mountain
Does this means we should downgrade him just because he struggle to lift a building or mountain?

No, but what i am saying is if he truly had infinite strength, he wouldn't had a problem with that at all. How can someone's infinite strength be divided in two? If you have infinite strength then you can lift infinite weight.

 

[Excellence616]

No, but what i am saying is if he truly had infinite strength, he wouldn't had a problem with that at all. How can someone's infinite strength be divided in two? If you have infinite strength then you can lift infinite weight.

Like others said, he strength varies to infinity.

 

[Eficiente]

Yes, he struggles to lift stuff like buildings and mountains because Hulk typically isn't angry enough to get any higher and also holds back a lot. Also, we still haven't addressed the "book of infinite pages" feats from Thor Vol 6 #10 and Thor #8 (2020).

To quote myself on the issues there; 1) Infinite is just a hyperbole. 2) The infinite space inside the book does not match the limited book as it is when seen from the outside, so to affect (lift) the book is just to affect a regular book because that is what it is. 3) It's a magic book. Hence it looks limited w/o being limited. 4) "Infinite" isn't a hyperbole but it goes as in "ever-growing", it being finite but forever in the future growing in size.

This is no better than some random infinite power statement. The issue outside the feat itself is how Thor and everyone who scales to him have issues lifting things of limited weight.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Like others said, he strength varies to infinity.

Also, I'm pretty sure we allow people to scale above baseline infinite power and have a higher degree of it, so someone with infinite power could still struggle to lift things with a higher degree of infinite mass.