Marvel Comics God-Tier Speed Upgrades

[Matthew_Schroeder]

These feats overank all those low-ends, and stop using Brevoort's judgement. He is the guy behind the handbooks which are confirmed vastly inconsistent. Thor has numerous MFTL+ feats, as Xcano demonstrated. You'd have to ignore all of these to downgrade the characters based on secondary canon and a Tumblr Post..

 

[Ryukama]

Tom Brevoort as mentioned above, while he may be a figure of high authority within Marvel, he can make some pretty ridiculous claims at times.

Tom even goes as far as to say Silver Surfer's reactions and combat "aren't particularly any quicker than an ordinary person."

So according to Tom Brevoort not only is Thor's hammer stronger than Odin, but you or I could keep pace with the Silver Surfer in a street fight. Yeah I think it's safe to disregard what he has to say. At least on these manners.

Also could you please cite when Spiderman blitzes Thor, Odin or the Silver Surfer?

And we aren't "ignoring feats." Xcano has shown a huge list of feats that contradict what Tom and the guidebooks say.

 

[Hatted_Cat]

Did you see the above argument explaining how feats > statements/author intent?

Yes but you also have feats contradicting this...not to mention that the avalible feats can be explained in differently. All FTL travel in Marvel takes place in Hyperspace so if Gladiator (which can be thought of as wormholes) so if Gladiator jumps in and out of Hyperspace and tackles Heimdall in real space it doesn't have to be that fast at all.

It becomes even worse when you not only ignore elements like these but also take idioms like "blink of an eye" literally.

 

[Iron_Kirby]

Frieza doesn't have stat level feats lol.

And I agree

 

[Grudgeman1706]

I also agree with the upgrade based on Matt and xcanos reasoning above.

 

[Ryukama]

You can't keep bringing up feats without actually citing them. Hitchen's Razor. Xcano has actually provided numerous feats for the God Tiers. Whereas you haven't actually shown any feat that supports what you're saying. Rather claiming that Spiderman blitzing Surfer and such exists somewhere out there.

The scans in question do not suggest that these feats are taking place in Hyperspace and do you again have anything to cire for "all FTL Marvel takes place in Hyperspace."

And again even though Tom Brevoort is of high authority he can make some of the most ridiculous claims at times. Again, according to him Thor's hammer > Odin and I am able to keep pace with a Power Cosmic wielder in a fight. His word is not gospel and should at times be discredited when what he's saying is complete nonsense which isn't unheard of from him.

 

[Hatted_Cat]

These feats overank all those low-ends, and stop using Brevoort's judgement. He is the guy behind the handbooks which are confirmed vastly inconsistent. Thor has numerous MFTL+ feats, as Xcano demonstrated. You'd have to ignore all of these to downgrade the characters based on secondary canon and a Tumblr Post..

But you are using Handbooks when it fits your narrative, so why are you ignoring them when they contradict you?

And for every FTL calculation there are numerous scenes of Wovlerine blitzing Thor or Captain America blitzing Thor..but when was the last time Thor blitzed anyone?

Fact of the matter is that if he is getting blitzed by Wolverine he will be blitzed by Naruto.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Hatted Cat

The idea of calculating and indexing demands for us to take statements, do pixel-scaling and measure things, and throw authorial-intent out of the window.

To use another example, take this Flash feat:


The narration states that Flash was moving at just under the speed of light. That was the intent of the author. However, quick math shows how impossible and wrong said statement is, for Flash would need to move at 13 Trillion Times Lightspeed to accomplish the feat. Thus, the author's statement is wrong and needs to be thrown of a cliff and not be used. Simple. Similarly, if an author states that a character cannot blow up a Planet, but said character has four different showings of exploding galaxies, said author is also wrong.

Authors are not the be-all, end-all source of information of a series. Rather, the series itself is. And the best way to know about it and it's characters is by reading it, not by looking up guidebooks or Author Quotes on Twitter.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Those feats are Low-Ends, just like Thor saying he would die if crushed by a Wall-Trap is a Low-End.

I'm against using handbooks entirely, but one step at a time.

Also, what does Naruto have to do with this? You sound like a downplayer.

 

[Dark649]

And for every FTL calculation there are numerous scenes of Wovlerine blitzing Thor or Captain America blitzing Thor.

These scans are clearly Outliers.

 

[Hatted_Cat]

@Hatted Cat
The idea of calculating and indexing demands for us to take statements, do pixel-scaling and measure things, and throw authorial-intent out of the window.

To use another example, take this Flash feat:

The narration states that Flash was moving at just under the speed of light. That was the intent of the author. However, quick math shows how impossible and wrong said statement is, for Flash would need to move at 13 Trillion Times Lightspeed to accomplish the feat. Thus, the author's statement is wrong and needs to be thrown of a cliff and not be used. Simple. Similarly, if an author states that a character cannot blow up a Planet, but said character has four different showings of exploding galaxies, said author is also wrong.

Authors are not the be-all, end-all source of information of a series. Rather, the series itself is. And the best way to know about it and it's characters is by reading it, not by looking up guidebooks or Author Quotes on Twitter.

This is not author commentary, this is narration.

And I'm not saying that narration has to be correct (your scan proves that it doesn't)...but you are not only ignoring the Hanbooks and the Editor you are also ignoring feats.

When Spider-man blitzes Thor you can no longer claim the advantage of arguing from feats.

Not to mention that you're not relying on feats, you're relying on very specific interpreations (calculations) that does not account for in-canon explanations like Hyperspace .

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Does this mean that Goku is rock/laser level? Kirby is apple level? Anti-feats exist.

 

[Hatted_Cat]

Does this mean that Goku is rock/laser level? Kirby is apple level? Anti-feats exist.

How can 90% of the feats be "anti-feats"?

You can even explain the feats you mentioned, Goku was wounded because he was caught off guard. This is explained by Whis ....so it's not like you have to hide from these feats and make excuses.

And Marvel explaines FTL with Hyperspace...so the idea that they actually traveled in real space (which the calculations assumes) is wrong to begin with.

 

[LordXcano]

@Hatted

The very fact they react and interact with things while not in Hyperspace disproves the notion that Hyperspace is needed to go FTL.

In fact if this was the case, every single ship in Hyperspace would arrive centuries in the past or future as Thor only needs to go 2c before he time travels. On top of that, it would be impossible for Thor or anyone to ever react to light if FTL required Hyperspace.

How would they see the light before it hits them? How would they deflect it if their arms are in another dimension?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Hatted Cat

Cease your downplaying. I'm starting to view as not worth keeping around.

 

[LordXcano]

@Matt Calm.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I am, merely giving a warning. If we have to wast 60 posts dealing with a circular conversation, we will not make progress with what's important.

 

[Hatted_Cat]

@Hatted
The very fact they react and interact with things while not in Hyperspace disproves the notion that Hyperspace is needed to go FTL.

In fact if this was the case, every single ship in Hyperspace would arrive centuries in the past or future as Thor only needs to go 2c before he time travels. On top of that, it would be impossible for Thor or anyone to ever react to light if FTL required Hyperspace.

How would they see the light before it hits them? How would they deflect it if their arms are in another dimension?

Thor can't time travel anymore, he lost that ability in Thor 282 but he did it with magic, not speed.

For the rest I'm not really sure what scene you're talking about, you can't even see light if it doesn't hit you. But even Captain America has dodged lasers in some of the earlier comics.

But we know that Thor uses Hyperspace .

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You know, using one example of "Hyperspace" is as valid as me using this sca and demanding Multiversal+ Thor

 

[Hatted_Cat]

You know, using one example of "Hyperspace" is as valid as me using this sca and demanding Multiversal+ Thor

I fail to see how striking CK with Thunder would make Thor Multiversal....but it doesn't matter since it is 100% irrelevant

But it's not like an obsurce thing, it pops up in the comics all the time as an established concept in Marvel 1 , 2 , 3

It was even used by Hickman to explain how Susan Storm could kill Celestials .

Not to mention that it's explicitly used in the Handbooks to explain FTL travel for characters like SS who are also listed with "Enhanced Human" reflexes (which is just above Peak Human)

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Which has been proven inaccurate. You using Handbook is moot since we agreed they're wrong. And you showing Hyperspace means nothing with all these MFTL+ feats that scale to reactions.

 

[Hatted_Cat]

Which has been proven inaccurate. You using Handbook is moot since we agreed they're wrong. And you showing Hyperspace means nothing with all these MFTL+ feats that scale to reactions.

Okay so now you want to ignore the Handbooks...the next time you attempt to scale LT off the Brothers I'm going to redirect you to this thread.

Anway...there are countless of references to Hyperspace throughout the comics (here's another for good measure ), it has nothing to do with reactions.

We even have Richard Rider hitting Hulk with a force of 765,000 PSF (only 500 times harder than Mike Tyson) after crossing an interplanetary distance. So no, it's not reactions because it doesn't happen through real space.

Imagine if I droce a car at 10 mph, somehow I enter hyperspace and cross 10 billion lightyear in 1 second and pop up right in front of you going 10 mph and you jump out of the way. Does that mean you dodged me moving 10 billion light years/second because your calculation said so?...no it means that you misinterpreted the scene.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Why would I want to scale LT from brothers?

Oh look, you think a Wall-Level Anti-Feat for the Hulk is legit.

Please, just stop.

 

[Hatted_Cat]

Why would I want to scale LT from brothers?
Oh look, you think a Wall-Level Anti-Feat for the Hulk is legit.

Please, just stop.

1. Because you did.

2. How the is this a "wall level anti feat" when Hulk took the punch?....but you are missing the point. Nova came out of Hyperspace and hit with 765k PSF (pounds / square foot) proving that he didn't travel anywhere close to FTL speeds in real space.

3. Matthew, I love you, but you're wrong. There's a reason 90% of the feats prove that Thor isn't particularly fast and why both the Handbooks (even if you don't like them) and Tom Brevoort verifies this fact.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

1. ???

2. Because it's an Anti-Feat.

3. Don't say you love me. And there can't be multiple outliers, and the Handbooks are wrong. You wanting the Marvel characters to be slower means nothing.

 

[Hatted_Cat]

1. ???
2. Because it's an Anti-Feat.

3. Don't say you love me. And there can't be multiple outliers, and the Handbooks are wrong. You wanting the Marvel characters to be slower means nothing.

2. You ask for feats, (you get them), then you ask for more feats, (you get them)...and then you ignore them. I'm a bit disapointed because I expected a bit more quality control by the moderators...but no, you don't care about feats.

You just want to get Thor that upgrade (whether it's supported by canon or not).

3. If there can't be multiple outliers than how do you explain Thor being blitzed by characters that don't have super speed? By the way I'm not arguing that they are outliers, I'm arguing that the calculations are wrong because they're ignoring Hyperspace and pretend that this is taking place in real space (which is wrong).

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

If you are going to accuse me of being biased or anything, just do yourself a favor and leave. You're not proving anything.

3. Outlier. Low-End. Anti-Feat.

 

[Hatted_Cat]

If you are going to accuse me of being biased or anything, just do yourself a favor and leave. You're not proving anything.
3. Outlier. Low-End. Anti-Feat.

This was not the standard of debating I was expecting when I joined.

 

[Ryukama]

Just because one handbook mentions Hyperspace and a couple of stories bring it up, does not mean every space travelling feat is performed as such. The scans Xcano shows in his feats do not seem to suggest that they're in Hyperspace.

And since you have such faith within Tom Breevort and take what he has to say seriously, he says that Silver Surfer and Gladiator "can fly at interplanetary speeds through the void of space, journeying from planet to planet under their own power."

Not requiring Hyperspace to fly that fast rather they themselves are simply flying so quick.

Wall level Hulk and below superhuman Thor are too ridiculous to even address honestly. Using outlier low ends doesn't support an argument of higher end feats being outliers as well.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

What Ryukama has said, and Hatted Cat. I am frankly tired from arguing with you, and if you cannot see to reason and continue pushing your Low-End Thor based on skewed reasonings, I will simply cease to address your complaints, and would advise other Staff Members to do so as well, as Hatted Cat is simply dragging the thread down.

 

[LordXcano]

@Hatted See, the problem is (at least from what I've seen) Marvel speed feats tend to go:

Hulk < Street-Tier < Cosmics

And yet when they fight speed seems to be:

Cosmics < Hulk < Street-Tier

Both obviously can't be true, but since one involves a different character it is far more likely for jobbing to occur than it is otherwise.

 

[Antvasima]

@Hatted Cat

I understand your concerns, and we are aware of the constant Marvel rule of that anybody can fight or even defeat anybody, regardless how little sense it makes, but we also cannot ignore the high-level feats that we have generally scaled from for other franchises, and people have grown extremely tired of my previous approach, and think that I have been doing it specifically to deliberately downplay Marvel, because I hate it. Neither of which is true. I simply tried my best to make sense of it.

Regardless, it does not make any sense for Spider-Man to be swifter than Thor and the Surfer, when their feats are so enormously higher.

That said, LordXcano has a point in terms of the difference between feats and matchups, which makes it hard to find any sort of truly accurate solution here.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

In Marvel Comics, I feel that actual feats should take precedence over Matchup Results, unless said results are consistent throughout decades of comicbooks (Such as Ultron almost always requiring the Avengers' combined might to be stopped).

 

[Antvasima]

I think so too, but even with that approach, there will be great contradictions involved.

 

[Naitez]

Are we gonna start revising profiles soon?

 

[Antvasima]

We first have to get some calculated MFTL+ feats for Thor, and then we have to decide which characters that should be scaled from the Black Panther, Spider-Man, and Thor respectively.

In addition, I think that characters like Juggernaut would likely have to be placed at Unknown speed.

 

[Naitez]

Why place characters like Juggernaut at an Unknown speed?

 

[Antvasima]

Because he is consistently treated as slow, even compared to street level characters, yet can also consistently slug it out with Hulk and Thor.

 

[Naitez]

Might want to point that out in those profiles.

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

Seems alright to me.