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Marvel Cinematic Universe Upgrades/Downgrades

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I think Clint and Natasha should be Wall Level if BP is. But certainly not Wall Level+. I still don't think that BP's AP is on par with Cap. The kick was again BP outsmarting WS by pulling his regular arm which isn't even on par with Cap, then kicks him via combat speed.
 
Antvasima said:
@Matthew I would appreciate if you try to be open to changing your mind in your discussions. Thank you. The point of the forum is not to have competitions, but to try to find out what makes best sense.
Click to expand...
I am open. We are just discussing. Why tell me to change my mind when I am disagreeing with someone else.

@Spin

The proof that they are hurt is that they stagger, are send flying back with kicks and groan in pain. Being distracted doesn't lower your durability. The fact that it hurts at all significantly even, is proof that they scale.
 
Well, I just mean in general, not specifically. Conversations about statistics should preferably be an openminded give and take.
 
Cap didn't even feel much pain he just fell down notice how quickly he reacted after he fell? Staggering doesn't mean they are hurt, Quicksilver making Thor stagger doesn't make him City Level as well. And for the groans, I make noises when fighting even when I'm clearly winning.
 
Watch any fight in fiction between comparable characters. They will punch each other a lot and not one shot each other. This isn't an argument. Panther also quickly gets up from Cap's punches and Bucky's too.

Quicksilver staggering Thor is an obvious Outlier when Thor can city-bust.

You are not Captain America. He only groans when hurt or physically exerting himself.
 
@Matt:

I already pointed out that the mach cone is actually being used when it's being portrayed as such. There's even one where Thor bullrushed Malekith so hard that the cars near them were pulled in the portal with them. Just because most verses tend to ignore that, doesn't mean all verses do. Especially one such verse that makes it a point to make their heroes grounded despite being portrayed as huge threats.

We make it a point to differentiate the speeds so why not? Mushoku Tensei surely does, as does the EMH version of Avengers, though I suppose I had a hand with those. Besides, the page says that combat speed = flight speed until proven otherwise, and Thor has clearly shown the capacity to throw his hammer hard enough to make something of a vacuum to its surroundings, but not to the point of being anywhere near the point of his hammer MHSing by itself.

Tony's armor was shown weaker by feats. The whole movie was clearly showing it to be inferior to the others. Last time something like this was done (someone being weaker in the sequel or a following movie), they released a prequel comic showing how Thor was still feeling the effects of being transported to Earth with dark magic in the Avengers. Tony had no such thing, to my knowledge.

His armor wasn't destroyed, it was damaged, negligible as it was as he wasn't bothered in combat afterwards, which is still a thing.

Differentiating low ends and high ends are fine. Using high ends that have barely any relation to low ends are another thing entirely.
 
Not the whole MCU, only Thor 2 has a few Mach cones, which once again aren't a very good way of analyzing things.

Quantifiable feats and calcs >>> Existence of Mach cones.

No, Thor is MHS in speed by his own feats when flying and throwing Mjolnir. You can't just ignore the feats.

Feats that are complete outliers even to his scrap armor, and thus should be ignored.

No, using low-ends that are low-ends even to the weakest version of the characters is the wrong thing here.
 
Also Hawkeye and Black Widow should be Wall Level, as I said in another thread. Hawkeye destroyed Ultron Sentries with his bare hands. Also Captain America should be Large Building Level with shield for harming Large Building Level Ultron.
 
If I may put in my 2 cents on this matter; I somewhat agree and disagree with both Gemmy and Matt on this matter concerning Thor's speed. On 1 Hand I believe that Gemmy is making a logical point concerning the Mach cone when Thor moves or throws his hammer, but on the other hand I also agree with Matt that Thor's hammer being MHS in return speed only is kinda ludicrous, so why not a simple compromise for now? In my eyes neither of u are wrong but i get the impression that this will only keep going 4ever unless a compromise is made.

@Gemmy Marvel released a prequel comic to Avengers?
 
@Matthew Schroeder Also I think Cap's shield would be 8-A because now Iron Man is upgraded Ultron would scale. BP Wall Level+ will make sense if Clint and Natasha are Wall Level. Clint managed to destroy an Ultron Sentry with his bare hands.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Not the whole MCU, only Thor 2 has a few Mach cones, which once again aren't a very good way of analyzing things.
Quantifiable feats and calcs >>> Existence of Mach cones.

No, Thor is MHS in speed by his own feats when flying and throwing Mjolnir. You can't just ignore the feats.

Feats that are complete outliers even to his scrap armor, and thus should be ignored.

No, using low-ends that are low-ends even to the weakest version of the characters is the wrong thing here.
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dude.....mach cones are what makes supersonic feats contifiable
 
No. Quantifiable distances / time-frames are what give values. Mach Comes are frankly not needed at all to determine speeds.
 
in the case of mjolnir, yes as everytime something that isn't qs has broken the sound barrier, there has been a mach cone depicting it. it was in iron man and in thor, the absence quantifies the feat as subsonic
 
@Spino I advise not to change anything yet, at least not until we have a clear consensus.

@Drummer not necessarily so, because the MCU shows a Mach cone once in a while doesn't mean every other feat without one isnt supersonic. There could be an inconsistency and I imagine it wouldn't be the first time in fiction that that inconsistency occurs
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Not the whole MCU, only Thor 2 has a few Mach cones, which once again aren't a very good way of analyzing things.
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Thor 1, Mjolnir flies back to Thor for the blonde viking jesus moment.

Iron Man 1 silver armor test flight.

Iron Man 1 red armor flight, thrice.

Mjolnir flies by itself back to Thor in TDW.

It's rather consistent that the speed only ramps up when flight is involved.

Quantifiable feats and calcs >>> Existence of Mach cones. Proof that combat speed = flight speed >>> Lack thereof. We can't just assume it as such because 99% of fiction does so said:
@Gemmy Marvel released a prequel comic to Avengers?
Click to expand...
http://imgur.com/a/gATey
 
@Gargoyle sorry, i was going to suggest maybe a "possibly" rating and i that didn't work maybe Gemmy and Matt could decide for themselves. Though it doesnt seen either of them is willing to compromise on this matter

@Gemmy thanks
 
I am personally leaning towards Gemmysaur's interpretation of the MCU flight and combat speeds.
 
Well my two cents and going by this site's definition of flight speed:

Flight Speed

The speed at which a character or object flies a certain distance, like going from the earth to the sun for example.

High flight speed logically requires similar reaction speed in order to manoeuvre when approaching different objects.

However, certain franchises, such as Marvel Comics (and DC Comics or Image Comics, which follow the same conventions), make a great distinction between regular movement speed and flight speed.

As such, we have generally assumed that the characters' regular reaction or combat speeds are roughly equivalent to their flight speeds, unless this is clearly contradicted.

Don't we have any examples of Thor manoeuvring with his hammer while flying?
 
None of which are anywhere remotely close to MHS.

Best I got is when he bullrushed through the monster in the frost giant fight, and despite flying straight through, he landed directly in front of where the monster was facing a few seconds later.

There's also him flying up towards the flying mass of Novi Grad, and a car fell past him. He spun his hammer and flew to the falling car.

Pretty much shows that he can't turn worth a damn, but still, he's pretty okay in straight lines I guess. Pretty consistent with early comics prior to him controlling the hammer with his mind to make turns.
 
@Gemmysaur, how about this scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX4xX9jndTo

Once we see time slowdown from Quicksilver's perspective, notice how Thor is almost motionless in the air with the ultronbot? When Quicksilver runs to the top of the stairs Thor is already their waiting for him, and perceives him hence why he throws his hammer. Note the hammer is moving a little slower than the beam from the ultronbot but appears faster than Captain America's shield that was flying through the air previously. So would this not justify:

Combat speed: MHS from moving from the air to the platform while quicksilver's perception was slowed down.

Reaction speed: MHS perceiving quicksilver, hence why Thor threw the hammer.

Attack Speed: MHS for the hammer flying fairly quicky. Plus the hammer appears to be moving faster than the bullets quicksilver perceived at 0:59 of this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvMJs3GjTls
 
No, it falls under calc stacking.

But ill take a closer look at the feat later since at bar minimum its mach 1+
 
@HF

The video you linked. Play this part at 0.25x speed and see how Thor was swinging his arm (and his hair, ha, fab) faster than most everything else except the repulsor and Pietro himself, and they're in free-fall. I brought this up earlier, and a long time ago that Thor has slightly faster combat speed than the rest. Not too big, but quite noticeable (I can't remember anyone dodging his hammer throw).

This however, does not justify MHS. How fast was the slow down was, is something we can't answer (unless a calcer can do that, in which case, we can) and therefore can't quantify how fast Thor was there.

Regarding Thor throwing the hammer at Pietro, I brought it up with Gwyn a long time back as well, and he said we don't know how fast that thing is moving, and we can't compare it to Pietro's staring at a bullet flying upwards because those are different scenes with likely different slow downs.

I kinda agree with Gwyn there that it's unquantifiable. We don't know if the slow down is the actual reflexes of Pietro, and if the slow down for the hammer throw and the bullet is the same.

Lastly, Pietro was quite literally running in circles at that point because he doesn't have much else to run on. They're in a confined space, and he's running on a catwalk. Thor can just see him blur around from the other side of the structure, and assume he'd come from the direction he came from. Not to mention the fact that Pietro had to slow down since he had to turn a lot in that confined space as compared to the rest of his showings (only the train scene had many turns, and it was far more open than this).

Bottomline, we don't know how fast Pietro was circling around the catwalk for Thor to see and react to him.
 
Fair enough. Well, I tried lol. There is always Thor Ragnarok. Also, I saw that Gwyn is retiring. Who will handle the naruto revisions now?
 
Heatforce said:
Fair enough. Well, I tried lol. There is always Thor Ragnarok. Also, I saw that Gwyn is retiring. Who will handle the naruto revisions now?
Click to expand...
Gwyn is retiring from his staff role. He's not leaving the wiki.
 
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