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Marvel Cinematic Universe Upgrades/Downgrades

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Yep. You're definitely reaching, thor has never thrown his hammer at supersonic speeds. The mcu is aware of what a mach cone represents, it was displayed twice in the thor movies and iron man went at around mach 2 in the first iron man movie proven by the fact that the missiles were able to catch up with him. Mjolnir has gone supersonic twice in the mcu, once when thor was getting his powers back indicated by a CLEAR mach cone and the other when it left svathalfeim. Both of those times thor had no direct influence on the hammer, to assume he has been throwing the hammer as fast as it went in that outlier scene is false to say the least. Again, ur making excuses. Mcu qs is not mach 100, the fastest he ran was when he saved hawkeye. Stop using the naruto forum for calcs, most of them are wrong. And the quinjet couldn't have been at supersonic speeds at the moment thor caught up to it. All the CLEAR feats put thor flying with mjolnir at subsonic unless u have visual evidence that proves otherwise. Think of it as attaching a stone to a bullet, it will no longer retain its supersonic speed (the bullet being mjolnir)
 
One: Please use paragraphs.

Two: I would appreciate a more respectful tone.

Three: We definitely do see Thor throw his hammer at Faster than Sound speeds in Thor 2, and it also returns to him at MHS speeds showing that's how fast the hammer goes. Mach cones are meaningless, by that logic 99% of the characters in fiction would be downgraded.

Four: In Iron Man 3, Tony's suit goes from Miami to Tennessee in 84 seconds. Which is Mach 46.8. He can also fly from the US to the Middle East in minutes tops.

So missile hitting him is PIS.

Fifth: No, Quicksilver was weakened when he saved Hawkeye and his previous running speed was calced at much higher.

Sixth: Stop using Narutoforums calcs? Why, they are one of the most helpful things in debating to the point that our site almost depends on them. If a calc is accepted on the OBD, it's generally reliable.
 
Should I also use the speed to find KE?

Mach 134.91 = 46274.13 m/s

Actor is 180cm and buff so 74 kilos

Ke = 74/2*46274.13^2

Ke = 37*2,141,295,107.2569 = 7.922^10 joules 8-C
 
@Drummerboi.X Quicksilver died saving Hawkeye is not because of his speed, but his stamina. Quicksilver never had Superhuman Stamina. Let's say the fight lasted for 10 minutes, that's 100 000 minutes for Quicksilver using the numbers of Xcano's calc. Quicksilver was already exhausted and is therefore weakened.

Also, Thor appeared frozen in Quicksilver's perception of time and I thought Thor was calculated to be as fast as Mjolnir? I might be wrong though. Anyway, Quicksilver's casual bullet speed was calculated to be Mach 134.91. In Thor: The Dark World, Thor throws his hammer at Ma-Ma-whatever that dude's name is, and it arrives on Earth and starts flying back to Thor. We clearly see that the return speed was only slightly, quicker than the speed Thor threw it. I think it's pretty safe to say a healthy Quicksilver's at least Mach 100.
 
If he was Building Level wouldn't that scale to Hawkeye and Captain America's durability? Maybe outlier for Hawkeye but it's a possible upgrade for CA.
 
Also I believe Black Panther should be downgraded to Street Level+ or Wall Level. He has never shown strength feats comparable to that of Captain America and Winter Soldier. Saying Black Panther is comparable to Captain America and Winter Soldier is just like saying Captain America is Room Level because he outskilled Spider-Man. Black Panther was never on Captain America's strength level and the only hit he performed was because Captain America was briefly distracted like War Machine. Saying Black Panther is Captain America's equal just because of someone distracted CA is like saying Captain America's AP is equal to Iron Man. In his first fight against Bucky, notice his kicks only managed to slightly stun him? It's like saying Quicksilver is City Level for stunning Thor. The only reason Black Panther was able to pin him to the ground is because he outsmarted him with a martial art move. Bucky also managed to inch the claw back upwards a bit and it was only for the helicopter. In their second fight, we clearly see the Winter Soldier overpowering Black Panther in terms of brute strength and was only outskilled. I think Black Panther should be downgraded to Street Level+.
 
Several wrongs do not make a right. Fiction usually makes a strong distinction between attack potency and speed.

However, I think that this has occasionally been allowed if it is in line with the level of enemies that have been damaged, or if objects can be carried and used to cause damage at this speed.

That said, I may misremember, so it is best to check through our regulations page.
 
I think the MCU version is because he destroyed Ultron Sentries but I think the X-men one should be changed. I'll make a separate thread.
 
Thors hammer also has triple digit Mach feats. Quicksilver notably sees Mjolnir fly in slow motion.

Flight speed only, as of the assumption that Thor can ride Mjolnir at those speeds, which I am fine with. But, only flight speed. The hammer has never shown to travel at those speeds at being thrown, only when it flies on autopilot on its way back to Thor, and even then, when there was a super massive distance between them (Thor was on another world).

No MHS Thor, and no scaling Pietro to Thor. Pietro's faster anyway.

Hulk is Subsonic at a minimum. The speed of his leaps and charges is far greater than a human's. He also fought both Loki and Ultron, who's speeds scale to Iron Man, Ultron is even superior to Iron Man in every way.

Hulk's fight with Hulkbuster shows them at equal speed, but Hulkbuster is a lumbering giant.

Hulk has never fought Ultron, to my knowledge, beyond jumping to a moving quinjet and punching him out of it.

He's portrayed slower than Thor in their fight. Then again, Thor was outmoving Iron Man too, except when Iron Man shoots the repulsors on to fly or move to a different spot.

No, powerscaling in Civil War can be legitimate. Be reasonable. We do know that Spider-Man is stronger than Bucky since he casually stopped his punches, that Cap and Panther are comparable with Panther being more durable, that Vision and Wanda are equal, and that Cap's shield is strong enough to shatter Tony's armor.

Powerscaling is iffy in CW, but some make sense, i think.

Spidey >> Bucky for casually catching his metal arm. Regardless, he has his own feats in his own movie.

Cap and Bucky don't scale to Iron Man as that suit was seemingly potrayed weaker than his others, as it was shown to be meant to pacify, not full-on battle. It was even shown and implied multiple times that their gear weren't meant for such.


  • Hawkeye's arrows that cause tiny explosions
  • Iron Man's muffled repulsor sound instead of the regular high-pitched one
  • The pathetic repulsor not even making a singe on the wall after an extended beam
  • War Machine's having to switch to a different weapon to ruin the truck (his regular ones have this weird smoke trail after it with the muffled sounds, and the one that ruined the truck really sounded like guns, guns and more guns)
  • Panther's durability can scale from either getting pelted by bullets from a helicopter-mounted (correct me if it wasn't a helicopter) gun, and his AP while enough to tango with Cap and Bucky, doesn't really seem to do much to them, sans claws. The claws however have the feat of scratching Cap's shield beyond the paint job (it had dents where the claws hit iirc, does anyone have a close up of that?). I'm good with him being Street level physically, while higher with claws.
Wanda may have controlled Vision's forehead gem though, considering her powers came from it, and it glowed a different color prior to being drop in the friendzone hole.

Also, Thor appeared frozen in Quicksilver's perception of time and I thought Thor was calculated to be as fast as Mjolnir?

Thor was notably moving faster than anyone else in Pietro's vision sans repulsors. Hell, Thor's hair moves faster than Iron Man's arm. That says a lot.

Play that thing at 0.25x speed and look at Thor. (1:38)

Oh, and Ultron's flight speed being comparable to Pietro's running in that scene is not to be taken into consideration here. Pietro had to account for turning while Ultron doesn't.
 
What is the logic behind Mjolnir having faster return speed than throwing? Besides, if can be thrown at MHS speeds as seem in Thor 2. Scales to Thor's flight and attack speed.

If I recall, people also react to Thor's lightning which is MHS+.

Hulkbuster isn't a lumbering giant, it only appears slow. Hulk is Subsonic at a minimum. His speed is far greater than an ordinary person's as seem by his running and jumping.

Cap and Bucky dont scale but Cap's shield does. It can crack Iron Man's armor with bashes and throws. Even Tony's weakest armors in IM1 are Building level. Also Tonys suit in Avengers endured lightning from Thor, plus the 8-A feat.

Cap should be 8-C to 8-A with shield bashes / throws. Cap also fought Ultron pre-Vibranium upgrade and could shatter his drones.

Street level Panther? You mean Wall level+, right? He is physically stronger than Cap by himself, and his claws scratched Cap's shield which is 7-B.
 
Physically stronger than Cap? You gotta be kidding me. He only managed to outskill Cap, it's like saying Captain America would be Room Level+ for defeating Spider-Man. I agree his claws should be 7-B, but there's no way he's above Cap's level. The only hit he landed on Cap was when Cap was distracted by War Machine and it didn't really do any damage. His kicks also can only stun Bucky and he only pinned him to the ground by outsmarting him. Bucky and Cap were just outskilled, doesn't mean Panther is on par with them. We see Bucky quickly overpower Panther in brute strength in their second fight.
 
Because we were shown literally that it sped up when it was parted from Thor (he was on another planet). There's no other showing of such being that fast, and its second fastest is when it flew back to Thor in the first movie to complete his blonde viking jesus persona via reviving himself.

Clips for people reacting to Thor's lightning pls.

Hulk being subsonic is fine. Just that they're on different levels of subsonic. Also, jumping speed doesn't mean much to combat speed unless he bulllrushes.

How does the CW armor scale to the early avengers armor? That thing was beast with the whole tanking lightning and Thor's punches. Iirc, it was also that same armor that repulsor'd a guy through a wall. Meanwhile, CW armor has an extended repulsor attack that failed to even leave a mark on the wall. Also, he got damaged by falling cars.

Cap's good via scaling to drones, sure, he iirc, ripped one's head off.

He's not on par with Cap. Bucky isn't even on par with Cap, sans the metal arm.
 
Black Panther should be Street Level. However, Captain America should be High 8-C with shield, not because he fought Iron Man, but because he kicked his shield into Ultron, who's Large Building Level by that time.
 
Black Panther only managed to kick Captain America outside was because War Machine distracted Captain America. Are you calling Captain America on par with Iron Man now?
 
@Gemmy

No, we have two MHS feats. That's good enough. No reason to assume it's slower thrown. You are using apparently slower feats to downgrade.

>Combat Speed

Why is superhero stuff the only thing that has to deal with this argument? Seriously.

It scales because it's in Tony's character and plot to always build better and more effective armors. Low-ends and PIS will always exist, that doesn't make the armors weaker. Even Tony's weakest armors ever would never be damaged by a car.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
https://youtu.be/a4-5YbrPU1w?t=19
Clearly hurts Bucky in 0:19, 0:25. Physically overpowers Bucky in 0:45.
Click to expand...
What showed on Bucky's face in 0.19 is not necessarily pain.

Panther was using spin attacks to enhance his strikes, his normal shots was eh.

Running knee is a thing at pushing people.

Another spin attack, but this time from above, pushes Bucky to the ground again.

Using his body weight to drop Bucky to the ground again.

Then there's Panther using his body weight and leverage to push his claws to Bucky, which he held back quite well.

Cap's fight with Panther, Cap was holding the shield upward, while Panther was pushing down. One of them has the advantage of using his weight to push down while the other had his arms away from his body, hence using only his arms to hold the shield up, and not his body.

Jump kick. It'll push most anyone down unless they're really heavy or much, much stronger. Cap wasn't bothered either, as he blocked War Machine's attack afterwards, then spin kicked Panther away.
 
How Black Panther scales to Cap? He never displayed physical feats on par with him. The only attack he managed to land on Cap was the kick when War Machine distracted Cap. Bucky only got stunned, so Sharon Carter is Wall Level now? Black Panther is nowhere near Cap and Buck's level.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTtT8DK2Gcc

At 1:04, Panther hurts Bucky with a kick sending him flying again.

The entire argument here is "They don't scale cause they don't make them bleed or break limbs".

The very fact that Cap feels and is hurt by Panther's attacks shows that they scale. The difference in strength between you and the strongest punch ever thrown by a man is x10, and that punch would kill you.

Since Cap, Bucky and Panther fights don't end in one-shots, thdey scale. And yes, I'm fine with Wall level Clint and Natasha too.
 
Notice that Bucky quickly overpowers him in strength, knocking back? Black Panther simply outskilled him, as I repeat, are you calling Captain America Room Level+ for defeating Spider-Man? Black Panther only knocked down Winter Soldier in the beginning because he has a speed advantage and pushes him first.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
@Gemmy
No, we have two MHS feats. That's good enough. No reason to assume it's slower thrown. You are using apparently slower feats to downgrade.
Click to expand...
Where's the other one? Link pls. Also, no reason to assume it's at the same speed as being thrown when it clearly makes mach cones when it flies at supersonic and above.

I am using what they are clearly portraying for this, not assuming that just because Mjolnir (who mind you made a turn after being thrown before it started to move faster by itself) can MHS by itself, also means Thor can throw it at that speed, and swing at that speed.

Also, someone reacting to lightning feat pls? You still haven't provided for that one.

>Combat Speed

Why is superhero stuff the only thing that has to deal with this argument? Seriously.

No, it's not. We have always made a difference between combat speed and flight speed iirc, unless they're shown to fight while flying at those speeds.

It scales because it's in Tony's character and plot to always build better and more effective armors. Low-ends and PIS will always exist, that doesn't make the armors weaker. Even Tony's weakest armors ever would never be damaged by a car.

It's also in his character that he's trying to make up for what he did by pushing his funds to helping others instead at that time. He's on the side of the government trying to get superheroes to be liable for their actions right?

Also, is it PIS when most the entire movie showed his armor being weaker than its predecessors? By that logic, the yellow armor in IM3 getting hit by a truck makes the truck Large Building level.
 
@Matthew I would appreciate if you try to be open to changing your mind in your discussions. Thank you. The point of the forum is not to have competitions, but to try to find out what makes best sense.
 
I think Black Panther should be downgraded to Street Level or Street Level+. Where's the prove Cap is hurt? The only time he was hurt was when War Machine distracted him giving the chance for BP to kick Cap. The kick was Panther pushing, and it's simply martial arts skill.
 
Gemmy, I already pointed out why the Mach cone is a fallacious argument. I am the one hair the quantifiable feats while you simply take the apparently slower feats to low-ball the characters.

And no, the only verses where people immediately assume Combat Speed =/= Travel Speed is superhero stuff. Look at our rules for this, it says we assume it's equal until proven contrary. By this logic dBS should be downgraded since all the Massively FTL+ stuff is travel.

What part of that indicates that Tony would deliberatedly make a weak armor?

Being destroyed by cars is something which would be a low-end even for Tony's original gray armor which he made from scraps.

This ks a simple Matter of differenciating from low-ends to high-ends.
 
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