Marvel Cinematic Universe: Thor's Sokovia Feat

[Caesar_Wolfman]

When looking over the page for Thor on VS Battles, I noticed that the Sokovia feat was rejected because it was

1. Caused by 'an atomic reaction'

2. An outlier

Firstly, an atomic reaction does not automatically mean that the Vibranium detonated, as we see the entire slab of Vibranium is completely in-tact thus the Vibranium actually had nothing to do with the effect. An atomic reaction is any reaction atoms have with one another or with energy, so if Thor struck the Vibranium and the energy from his blow reflected back and forth, and then burst outward, that would be an atomic reaction. This is further reinforced by the fact earlier in the movie we saw Thor do the same thing with Captain America's shield.

Now, if you want to argue it is an outlier, then I would disagree as well because while the entire feat was done from Thor's own energy, without the Vibranium to concentrate it he would not be able to replicate it, no, but that does not mean his strike contained any less energy, for any single person he struck would feel all of that energy, and thus would experience the same result as the destruction of Sokovia.

In finality, I lobby that this feat be considered valid on VS Battles.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

Atomic reaction?Where did you get that from?

The point is that the feat required both Iron Man and Thor to concentrate their powers into a certain key point, otherwise it wouldn't work.

It can easily be considered an outlier.An outlier is a feat that is far above anything else a character has shown so we don't use them since the characters aren't usually that strong.In this case the top tier heros have several Building level feats and one Multi City Block level feat so yeah City level+ seems to be an outlier.

 

[Caesar_Wolfman]

My mistake, it said chain reaction, but it has the relative same reasoning. A chain reaction can mean anything, if I knock over a set of dominos, that's a chain reaction. However if lightning hit a rod, then jumps from the rod and hits another rod, another chain reaction. Something being a chain reaction does not inhibit its ability to be valid.

The only thing Iron Man had to do was stop the energy of Thor's strike from escaping, he capped it, he did not add any energy. This is stated explicitly.

Here's an example, say I have an explosive. Normally my explosive cannot destroy an entire building because the radius of that explosion isn't big enough, but, for sake of argument, say the building's frame is build out of Vibranium. If I put the bomb right next to the frame of the building, the Vibranium would absorb the entirety of the explosion, spread it out amongst the entire building, and if my bomb is strong enough, destroy the whole thing.

Now, all of that energy came from the bomb, but because the Vibranium absorbed it and spread it out, it was able to achieve a destruction it would not have been able to on its own. Empty space, radius, etc... are all factors that would've inhibited this bomb from destroying the building. However, I bypassed all of those, and went directly to "Can this bomb destroy x amount of material" and it can.

In the case of Thor's hammer, normally we see him only destroying buildings or city blocks because he can't actually get the radius on his strikes to be any larger. He has a maximum limit on the shockwave Mjolnir has, and he has a maximum limit on how much damage a single strike on the Earth can do, once it spreads out far enough. So, the fact he normally destroys buildings does not inhibit this feat from being valid, all this feat did was take all the power in Thor's strike, and give it a much bigger radius than it would normally have. It's all about power concentration, but no power was added to it.

If you really want to argue 'consistency' I can very easily point out how the Rainbowbridge has the raw power to rip through a planet, and the crystal holding that power must've been stable and durable enough to contain that power. Now the bridge does not have planet-destroying power running through it all the time, but every few seconds the Rainbowbridge was ripping through Jotunheim on a city-scale. As a result, any strike from Thor would need to exceed that power.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. Can you find the exact statements about the Sokovia feat being entirely due to Thor's own power? I was previously told that it was similar to throwing a lighter into a tanker full of nitroglycerine.

Of course, if this was accepted as not being an outlier, we would end up with the usual horribly inconsistent Marvel power-scaling for the other characters.

We might be able to scale the Hulk, Kurse, and Hulkbuster Iron Man, but if we start to scale Loki, and then the likes of regular Iron Man from him, and Captain America from Iron Man, we would end up with pretty much everybody at City level.

 

[Gemmysaur]

Iirc, it was entirely his power being pumped in, but it was rebounded by the heat seal, which probably was akin to stuffing too much air into a balloon to the point of almost bursting, then letting go of the balloon's mouth, making it release all that air inside.

Friday, however did say that Thor could crack it, but the result would still be devastating.

Also, if this gets accepted, I don't think anyone would scale to a supercharged lightning attack.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. If it was strictly a lightning strike, rather than a physical hammer throw, we can probably keep the previous scaling.

 

[Gemmysaur]

It seemed to be a mixture of both. He was pulling the lightning towards the hammer to the point where the lightning coating the hammer was already larger than Thor himself, then we hear the audibly blunt sound of Mjolnir striking it, then is followed up by multiple lightning strikes in the same spot. It's more a big initial damage attack + sustained damage over time thing.





On another note, how fast was Sokovia falling again? Iron Man briefly outsped it for a very short time despite it already catching fire from dropping.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It wasn't solely through Thor's power.

It was done by a series of factors that required the work of multiple Avengers and hitting the Vibranium Core.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also, there's not a single feat performed by MCU heroes on that level (Though that is bound to change with Doctor Strange)

Thor 1 and & 2, the other movies with the biggest feats, portray Thor as Building to Multi-City Block, though given that his Hurricane / Cloud Formation feat hasn't been calced, he could be Town level.

 

[Gemmysaur]

Didn't say it was by his lonesome, just that he provided the power and Iron Man provided the science... and why no one would scale.

That and Friday said Thor could crack it, though it would still be devastating. I'm assuming she was referring to the landmass.

 

[Naitez]

Thor 1 and & 2, the other movies with the biggest feats, portray Thor as Building to Multi-City Block, though given that his Hurricane / Cloud Formation feat hasn't been calced, he could be Town level.

Here are some pics for the Tornado feat if anyone's curious. Thor hitting giant Malekith looks like a good feat but is impossible to calc.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

@Caesar Wolfman what you said about the rainbowbridge makes no sense.

@Natse Τhank you for the pics.

 

[Naitez]

That and Friday said Thor could crack it, though it would still be devastating. I'm assuming she was referring to the landmass.

She's probably saying he could split it in two or more chunks, which is not enough for saving the Earth.

 

[Caesar_Wolfman]

Also, there's not a single feat performed by MCU heroes on that level

That doesn't mean it's impossible, just that you need some good evidence. Especially since this type of attack has never been replicated before or since, so one can easily speculate the power difference scenario-wise.

@Gemmysaur I don't deny that the feat was charged by lightning, but Thor was not charging his attack the entirety of that time, he was finished as soon as lightning hit his hammer, it was Iron Man that was asking him to wait. If Thor needed time to charge his attack, he would've said so, something like "I'm going to need a minute to get enough lightning for this kind of hit, Stark!" "K, take as much time as you need buddy, let me know when you're ready" but that kind of exchange never happened and with the teamwork that the Avengers clearly have, Thor would've made this statement if he needed to charge it. Therefore, he did not need to charge it.

And in those screenshots, that lightning is from the landmass itself, its cracking outward from the ground, not from the sky.

As a whole, this would not at all be his normal attacks, not every attack he lays out would have this level of power, but my argument is he could replicate the same amount of power any time he wanted. Maybe not the same result, but because all of that power comes from Thor, he should be able to replicate the same amount of force.

@Kkapoios The argument is basically if you have a brick that contains, as a random number, 5000 Joules of energy. If I'm able to crack that bridge with a hammer, I need to be able to put out an equal or far superior amount of energy in order to break it, because the brick is already chilling with that amount of energy, clearly 5000 Joules doesn't bother it, so if I want to break it in an instant, I need to either match that energy-thus doubling the amount of energy its forced to contain-or exceed that even further.

 

[Gemmysaur]

@Gemmysaur

1. Thor was not charging his attack...

2. If Thor needed time to charge his attack...

3. And in those screenshots, that lightning is from the landmass itself...

4. As a whole, this would not at all be his normal attacks...

1. "Thor, on my mark." Said Tony as he charged up a heat seal from beneath of the vibranium core. Thor raised his hammer up and called forth lightning. Vision flew fast in search of Wanda as we see lightning continue to cackle proudly in the background. Zooming out to the full view of the enormous landmass, lightning still fills the air above the vibranium core, then we cut to Thor switching to holding the hammer with both hands, then to Vision picking up Wanda with lightning still cackling in the background.

"Now!" Screamed the man of iron, and we cut to Thor bashing the drill with the full force of his charged lightning attack. An audibly blunt sound was heard as the attack proceeded to throw buildings upward. Lightning still continues to pour into the attack as the land was torn asunder.

With my beautiful commentary, we can clearly see that Thor was charging it up for quite a while. It may not have taken until Tony calls the hammer to drop, but it was still time he was clearly calling down the lightning. If anything, he might've finished charging once he held the hammer with both hands, and just kept the lightning open to pour down just in case. Even after he hits the drill, lightning still fell and buffeted his target.

2. It wasn't a case of him needing time to charge, it was him charging as much as he can til Tony calls it. That's how I saw it, though your interpretation may be viable as well.

3. Didn't look like that to me. The lightning is standing straight as a man's son in the morning. If you look closely, you can see lightning still coming down from above Thor's position, even after he already hammered the drill with his charged lightning attack.

4. Yes, it's not his normal attack. Yes, he can replicate the amount of power he charged now anytime he wanted, unless something's stopping him. I dunno about the last one since I know nil about chain reactions with regards to energy.

Sorry for the wall of text, but it's hard to reply to a fellow wall of text without making one of my own.

 

[Caesar_Wolfman]

1. [...] With my beautiful commentary, we can clearly see that Thor was charging it up for quite a while. It may not have taken until Tony calls the hammer to drop, but it was still time he was clearly calling down the lightning. If anything, he might've finished charging once he held the hammer with both hands, and just kept the lightning open to pour down just in case. Even after he hits the drill, lightning still fell and buffeted his target.

2. It wasn't a case of him needing time to charge, it was him charging as much as he can til Tony calls it. That's how I saw it, though your interpretation may be viable as well.

3. Didn't look like that to me. The lightning is standing straight as a man's son in the morning. If you look closely, you can see lightning still coming down from above Thor's position, even after he already hammered the drill with his charged lightning attack.

4. Yes, it's not his normal attack. Yes, he can replicate the amount of power he charged now anytime he wanted, unless something's stopping him. I dunno about the last one since I know nil about chain reactions with regards to energy.

Sorry for the wall of text, but it's hard to reply to a fellow wall of text without making one of my own.

I'll address the first and second at once, I believe that may just be a difference of perspective. I personally see it as Thor maintaining his position until called upon, there was no real reason to believe that Thor was charging up, only that he had to stay in that position with that exact amount of power in order to make it work. However a difference in perspective shouldn't make it invalid. The possibility of a feat not being valid does not mean we shouldn't list it as such.

Although if I'm to bring some sweet juicy science into this, the amount of lightning we see and the time Thor took calling that lightning down do not work together. Considering the speed with which lightning strikes down, and the amount of lightning Thor would've gathered in that time, there would've been enough lightning to fill up that entire chamber if Thor was charging it. Lightning is matter and requires a physical presence-unless we want to assume the hammer can store lightning, which is another possibility, one we haven't seen yet though.

Whether he's still calling lightning down after does not mean he was charging the attack, only that he was maintaining the lightning bolt.

When you said you didn't know about the last one, are you referring to my last statement where I said with the same amount of force, or my statement about busting a brick with 5000 joules in them? If it's the former, then when I say same amount of force, I meant he could dispel the same amount of force, whether or not it actually fully influences the target, well that's the question isn't it?

And I don't mind walls of text, I crave in-depth discussions and debates that aren't just "You're wrong because I say so!"

 

[Gemmysaur]

Ugh. Walls of texts.

1-2. Yes, it is a difference of perspective. I see no reason for Thor not to charge up as much as he thinks he needs as he waits for Tony to call it.

3. The amount of lightning we see going down and the amount of lightning we see Thor holding up on the hammer doesn't match... how do we know? Lightning doesn't exactly behave like say, water that we can check if the amount pouring down = the amount being held in the container.

Also, it seems Mjolnir can pull lightning out of itself. See image.


Whether he's still calling down lightning after does not mean he was charging the attack, possibly. Whether or not that is really the case is debatable.
4. I said I don't know about chain reactions, which is what happened with Thor's attack and the heat seal in the vibranium core. Sure Thor can pull out that much power that he charged, but are we so sure he can pull out that much power to match what pretty much vaporized the landmass? I dunno.

Vibranium pushes force outward from itself (see Cap's shield on any time Thor hits it). Tony mentioned he needed to keep the power to keep doubling back (by that, I think he means bouncing around inside with no way out), hence the heat seal to hold it in until he says so. This makes sense with Thor charging the lightning on the hammer for quite a while and still pouring down the lightning after he whacked the drill, since if we think the core as a jug, then fill it to the brim with water while keeping it from spilling, then release the water while still pouring more inside, then yeah. We get water shooting out.

 

[Antvasima]

Please stop quoting large blocks of text. It makes the responses harder to read for others.

 

[Caesar_Wolfman]

@Gemmysaur

I just don't see any evidence for Thor storing lightning, it was never shown he can store lightning in or around his hammer, so I'm just doubtful on whether or not we should assume that's what's being done.

And I always assumed that blue glow on his hammer were magic runes that summoned the lightning. Maybe that topic can be explored further in the future.

I'm unsure of what your statement on Vibranium is referring to, I didn't think we were in a disagreement about that.

 

[Gemmysaur]

There is no evidence, yes. And any visual clues we get is peppered with very misdirecting things. We can only assume.

The blue I pointed at in the picture were actual lightning sparks dancing around the hammer.

Regarding vibranium, it was forcefed energy it was supposed to deflect, and made to hold it in. Releasing all that energy while pushing even more in would be the chain reaction Tony was talking about, methinks.

 

[Caesar_Wolfman]

@Gemmysaur

I think we've reached a valid conclusion here, most of what we see is interpretive at best, although I am new to this site, so would that be enough to get the feat to be labeled as valid for a striking feat, or would it instead be labeled as interpretive?

Really? Hm, I hadn't noticed that before, interesting. Maybe something to consider.

And that is pretty much what I've said to people before when this came up, chain reaction can mean a lot of things.

 

[Gemmysaur]

It would be labeled as inconclusive to my knowledge since nothing definitive has been reached and there is a lack of other people's input. It has been discussed twice or thrice before too and it never held on. Maybe this time, hopefully. I'm raring to go for City level MCU.

And yeah, chain reaction is a pain in the neck. When one discusses this pain in the neck with another, they now both have a pain in the neck and will seek another to break the tie. Chain reaction indeed.

 

[Caesar_Wolfman]

That's probably because there's quite a few people I'm aware of that try to dump on Thor. He's one of those characters that gets a lot of hate and gets defamed a lot for it. I agree on the city-level aspect as well, in the comics Thor is easily one of, if not the, most powerful hero, and that should remain consistent in the MCU, unfortunately it feels like he's not cared for like he should be.

Oh absolutely, interpretive anything is a pain in the neck.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

Thor is one of my favorite super heroes but that's not a reason to bumb him into City level without putting any thought into it.

 

[Caesar_Wolfman]

There is a stark(Ha) difference between putting thought into something, and ripping apart any feat the character has that could indicate him being powerful. The latter is what seems to happen a lot in the MCU and the Comics.

Saying "Thor is one of my favorite super heroes" is just that, saying it. There've been many people I've encountered who use that as a shield to act like they aren't totally hating on the character, but as soon as they were in private mocked him viciously, as well as fans like myself.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

Sorry to disappoint you but i don't have time to pretend that i like things that i don't.Personally i'm unsure wether the feat should be used or not since they have nothing else that is even close to being 100 times weaker of that feat, that's why we don't exclude the possiblity of an outlier.And the chain reaction makes things even more complicated.

One more thing, guess who was the guy that did the Sokovia calc in the first place

 

[Naitez]

Thor is my favorite superhero but when you have him paired with people that are much weaker than him or have less impressive feats, you'll run into inconsistencies. This isn't like DCEU Superman and friends where all of them bar Batman have similar showings. (But I'll have to admit that equating flight speed with combat speed because of some ancillary source is the stupidest thing.)

 

[Gemmysaur]

Let's not poke at others' likes and dislikes Wolfman. They make good points.

@Natse:

Is there a discussion going on regarding flight speed and combat speed?

@Kkapoios:

Hello. May I ask if you can calc Thor's tornado/hurricane/wall of wind/whatever in the Thor movie against the Destroyer? That was a nice feat.

 

[LordXcano]

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the exact transcript is that Thor would fragment Sokovia and then the Vibranium would amp it so the remaining chunks wouldn't be as deadly. Going by the blog Kka just linked, that'd be Small City level.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

@Gemmysaur I posted the calc hours ago, you can find it on my blogs.

 

[Caesar_Wolfman]

@Gemmysaur

I was just pointing out that saying "Well I like X character" does not suddenly mean you're devoid of prejudice against them, I'm not trying to poke at anything.

@Natse This is also something to consider, the fact that this is a movie and there will be inconsistencies is very prevelent and should be taken into account. Joss Whedon didn't have a mathematician run in and calculate out every last angle, every last PSI that Thor could inflict if he's a certain strength. It's fiction and you have to be kinda leniant.

@Kkapoios

I don't expect you to act like you like things that you don't, I simply don't want to see people hide behind the shield of "Oh I love-- *looks at notes* Thor!" I've lost my patience for that defense. I am not trying to sass or mock you, only trying to rid the debate of irrelivancies, there is no need to be defensive and point out "Well I did the calc!" I don't care who did what, only what facts are available. I am not in the business of appealing to authority.

The thing about outliers is, you can't just call something an outlier because it's above or below the norm. Look at the feat compared to every other striking feat. Every other striking feat was a single-handed strike with no additional power to it. This was a two-handed strike from a standing position with lightning being channeled through the hammer, and is being channeled through Vibranium which was redirecting every last bit of energy exactly where it needed to be. With all of these factors, you can't say automatically "Outlier, doesn't count" and you're right, you have to examine it, but that's what we've been doing, and this is the conclusion we've reached. Aside from whether or not it was charged with lightning or otherwise, the facts have been laid out and a conclusion determined.

And chain reaction has very little impact to the overall position considering for the most part, a chain reaction is most likely a non-factor into whether or not Thor actually did it. All of the evidence including Friday's statements, what we know of Vibranium, and what we see, it was all Thor's own energy. That is enough evidence to come to a final conclusion of validity.

 

[Gemmysaur]

@Gemmysaur I posted the calc hours ago, you can find it on my blogs.

Many thanks. I got disappointed it was so low though.

 

[Naitez]

@Natse This is also something to consider, the fact that this is a movie and there will be inconsistencies is very prevelent and should be taken into account. Joss Whedon didn't have a mathematician run in and calculate out every last angle, every last PSI that Thor could inflict if he's a certain strength. It's fiction and you have to be kinda leniant.

By inconsistencies, I meant Thor not turning Iron Man into scrap in one scene and knocking the Hulk off his feet in another in the same movie.

@Natse:

Is there a discussion going on regarding flight speed and combat speed?

No, but the magazine scan claimed that he can react as fast he can fly because he would be crashing into stuff all the time otherwise. The Speed page states that "most fictional characters do not remotely tend to exhibit FTL or higher movement or perception speed in regular encounters simply because they can fly that swiftly. As such, a character should preferably prove that its regular movement speed is equal to or higher than its flight speed to be listed as such." Note that this rule was applied to comics Post-Crisis Superman.

 

[Caesar_Wolfman]

@Natse

Yeah Thor showing a vast difference in power like that is another good point.

And personally I can agree with the magazine. A character's perception speed and ability to turn while moving is very valid and while it should not be a definitive proof of their combat speed, it should be able to be used as further back-up if a characters lacks a lot of speed feats for the sack of quantity, since people seem to care about that. Using it as a supporting argument should be fine so long as you have primary examples, or if the character was around for two panels.

Although I don't think this thread would be very good for continuing this subject.

 

[Naitez]

I'll bring it up on DCEU Superman's talk page.

 

[Antvasima]

@Kkapoios Do you think that it might be acceptable to rate MCU Thor as "City level with preparation and lightning strikes" as a compromise solution, as an extra statistic, without scaling any other character from it?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Kkapoios Do you think that it might be acceptable to rate MCU Thor as "City level with preparation and lightning strikes" as a compromise solution, as an extra statistic, without scaling any other character from it?

It's possible. But then I question why he didn't one-shot neither Ultron or Malekith by simply charging lightning for about 5 seconds and hitting them.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

@Matt maybe the reason could be that their were still civilians in sokovia being evacuated still within the city? for Ultron.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, as I keep saying, Marvel does not make any sense whatsoever in terms of power-scaling and consistency, even compared to other fictions.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Marvel movies are generally more consistent. Almost every feat performed by Top Tier heroes is within 8-C to 8-A.

If we were to upgrade Thor to 7-B, we would end up upgrading 90% of the verse and that's problematic.