Marioverse profile splitting

[DaSmileKat]

Since Marioverse characters' power varies wildly between games, their profiles should be split so that the character's version in each game gets a profile. Link (Composite) does it, so why doesn't Marioverse do it?

 

[UltraChair]

I mean for Link, he has different profiles because each Link is a different person from the other, with some exceptions (ex. Triforce Heroes is the same Link as the one from Between Worlds)

 

[NotAMarioFan(lol)]

Since mario is mario he will not be split or separated that goes with bowser, luigi, peach, etc

 

[DaSmileKat]

Then there should still be a key for every game, like Super Mario Bros 1/Lost Levels/2/3/World (those seems pretty similar in power) | Super Mario 64 | Super Mario Sunshine (I'm not familiar with this one, so I'm not sure if it's that different from Super Mario 64) | New Super Mario Bros. series | Super Mario Galaxy (by far the most powerful version) | Super Mario 3D Land/World (includes some new abilities) | Super Mario Odessey

 

[Soupywolf5]

If that happened then Mario might acutally get to be Low 2-C

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

This seems impractical.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

It's entirely too convoluted. At best you can make an argument for Mario (Main), Paper Mario, and Mario (Mario & Luigi) to have separate profiles. Maybe Mario (Party) as well. But even that's a little meh. Mario just has way too many games for that kind of profile separation.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

No. These different games are considered canon within Mario, making several keys based off specifc spin-offs is dumb. This is why we're removing WarioWare and DKC keys.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@DatOneWeeb Having different versions of yourself =/= different canons. Its like how Kirby's keys, for example, are separated "Pre-Star Allies" and "Post-Star Allies" but that doesn't mean they both are automatically 2 different canons, it just means that the games have different mechanics which you can keep things the same within a collection of games that support the same game mechanics before Star Allies but not for Star Allies & games that exist after it if there are some game mechanics from the previous games which they don't and/or can't have.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Maverick & @FoxThefox This is why we have separate tabbers to help prevent that when a profile has several different keys.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@DaSmileKat Don't forget the Mario & Luigi series.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Not a good comparison. Pre and Post Star Allies a time skip + power increase. We are not going to give Mario a key for each Mario series, that's just ridiculous. Saying we should add keys because certain games have different mechanics is awful reasoning as to why we should do this. Otherwise this affects more than just Mario. This topic has been brought up before but never applied. The same will happen here.

 

[Dust_Collector]

What would these keys even look like? Using Bowser as an example there would be no difference in stats or abilities between keys for, let's say, the classic NES games and Super Mario Galaxy since Bowser canonically hasn't gotten any stronger or gained any permanent new abilities between these games.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@DatOneWeeb A series of games with different game mechanics in some aspects is different from just a singular individual game with differerent game mechanics in some aspects, which should have a separation from the other series of games.

It's like how they treat Sonic's keys, a series of games having different mechanics are separated from the other ones while also still being considered canon to the entire Sonic games franchise regardless and this apples to all of the Sonic games mentioned on the profile in general.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Sonics keys aren't just due to games having different mechanics, his keys are either due to him getting stonger and gaining new permenant abilities, or having unique transformations.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Dust Collector That's part of it, the other reason is always different game mechanics and you must have missed & forgotten what these 2 separated keys mention:

• "Adventure and Modern Sonic"
• "Modern Sonic (Sonic Generations and Onwards)"

You notice how both keys mention Modern Sonic but one of the keys mentions the version of Modern Sonic that starts at Sonic Generations. If it was just a change of statistics, then we shouldn't have to separate these 2 keys and simply merge them together, correct? So yeah, different game mechanics is another factor to keep account of as it might cause a separation of keys.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Game mechanics has nothing to do with it, Modern Sonic (Sonic Generations and Onwards) is Large Planet level whereas Adventure and Modern Sonic is Planet level+, only getting to Large Planet level via the Light Speed Attack (And even then the LSA isn't even close to being as high into Large Planet level as Sonic is from Generations and onwards). At no point in his profile does it even imply the distincation is made purely due to game mechanics, in fact the Sonic Genenerations and Onwards key includes Sonic Generations and Sonic Lost World as part of the same key, and both those games are incredibly different in terms of game mechanics. Heck, the Adventure and Modern Sonic key includes the 3-D Adventure games (Each adventure game having quite a few game mechanics that the others don't have like Shadows branching missions and guns, or Sonic Heroes having the team based gameplay), 2-D Advance and Rush games (The former playing like the classics, the latter basically being the boost games in 2-D), Sonic Chronicles which is a turn based RPG, Sonic Unleashed in which half the game is the boost gameplay and the other half is a beat 'em up platformer, and several others, all contained within a single key on his profile despite the varied game mechanics.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Dust Collector If its a major change for the game mechanics, then it becomes relevant and may lead to a separation of keys. There's no major changes to Sonic Generations & Lost World and everything past it unlike the Sonic games before Sonic Generation & the ones that belong in their own series of games, which does.

Sonic Chronicles isn't a part of the canon apparently, so that can't be mentioned (at least I still think it is as most people usually say) and separated forms like the Werehog form is the only exception to that but however, this form also has its own key because of this. Everything in the Adventure series and the continuation of games within the Adventure series are still in the same series of games which doesn't disprove my point.

 

[NotAMarioFan(lol)]

Nothing is gonna happen here just pointing that out and stop comparing verses (mostly mario and sonic) it's rather tedious plus this has been discussed numerous of times

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@NotAMario When you mix several alternate versions of a character from different series of games that could potentially have major differences in game mechanics, not a singular individual game but a series of them, into one key, it makes it near impossible to separate them at that point.

Especially when there's cases when some of their powers originated in future games that their past versions never have yet, just pointing that out. Comparing verses that works similar to each other when their keys are separated for the same reasons is one of the good possible ways to explain this. Claiming that it isn't is like trying to say that creating a Marvel Comic character profile should follow these rules but DC Comic character shouldn't have to follow the same rules despite the fact that the rules for both of them works the same way.

 

[DaSmileKat]

These keys will perhaps be better.

Original Donkey Kong series (Mario did appear in it) | Original Super Mario Bros. series | Super Mario 64/Sunshine | Super Mario Galaxy | New Super Mario Bros. series | Super Mario 3D Land/World | Super Mario Odyssey | Yoshi series (maybe there are variations in that, but I hadn't played those games before) | Mario RPGs (again, I'm not familiar with those) | Super Smash Bros. series (not sure if that counts or not) | Paper Mario | Mario & Luigi | Mario & Sonic (Maybe?). That's quite a lot. Maybe I missed some, because there's so many games.

 

[NotAMarioFan(lol)]

Yea when Mario is mario dont have any idea u saying there are alternate versions of Mario which they are not lol. As @Maverick said this is impractical since already organize the abilities from Mario's entire verse. So imma just unfollow this thread since what is going on right now is a literal waste of time (been through these threads dozens of times). L8r

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@NotAMario When I said alternate Mario's, I clearly mean several Marios with different appearances & found in specific series of games.

By "organize," you mean mix all of them together in one secton and I don't mean the separated powers b/c of his statistics.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@DaSmileKat We don't include the spin-offs.

 

[Unoriginal_Memes]

Spin-offs like Mario Party are included, just not the items and feats from the games themselves (otherwise the Millenium Star wouldn't be a supporting MFTL+ feat and Bowser wouldn't have the powers he demonstrates throughout them).

 

[Lou_change]

@Magi We only give Mario different keys for the most powerful transformation items because Shigeru Miyamoto say in a interview Mario has no canon this statement put the Mario verse in to complete chaos as every game is both canon and non-Canon to every other game, so we went to the simplest solution everything's Canon. Also how about instead of blaming game mechanics Kirby being split by pre and post star allies is mostly just how we restrict friend hearts but, also they got a bit stronger. For sonic take a good look at the keys and maybe you'll see the differences.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Why would you use Sonic as the example? Adventure and Modern Sonic keys exist because they're time skips and canonically get stronger. Mario isn't the case here.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

so you want something like This?

 

[Soupywolf5]

With those exact Tierings

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm going to have to give a hard no to this. Mario only has one continuity and Mario is just one character. It is not at all like Legend of Zelda where there are many different Link who are simply different reincarnations of each other and across multiple timelines. Mario is just a single character from a single timeline. It may be a nonlinear timeline with a loose canon, but it is all still one canon.

In other words, the Mario from Super Mario, Paper Mario, Mario & Luigi, Mario Party, ect are all the same Mario and we are not splitting this. We've had way too many discussions regarding this.

Also, the fact that the Forum move is still going on is proof that this is a really horrible time to be making profiles like this.

 

[NotAMarioFan(lol)]

Guess that's taken care of.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Unoriginal Memes I meant not having to add it to the keys, I'm not saying that we can't use feats from those games, you must have misinterpret me on that.

@DatOneWeeb Mario has games with time-skips too before and even though the canon gets inconsistent sometimes, they do indeed get stronger in future games.

@DarkDragon Just letting you know, no one said Mario didn't have a single continuity and separating a series of games wouldn't automatically disprove them being canonically connected either.

No one said it needs to happen immediately either.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Either way, we are not separating keys based on a bunch based on each and every spin off. We don't do the same thing for characters like Bugs Bunny via making keys for various episode types nor do we make keys for Post-Crisis Superman for each and ever writer, so we cannot due to same sort of thing here. We just have one main key for his consistent feats with the only exceptions being specific power ups that further enhance his stats.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@DarkDragon I'll remain neutral and think about it later in a different time then until there's a more explainable method available that will fix the problem soon.

 

[SomebodyData]

Well seperating the profile would result in a significant more coherent set of profiles and way easier scaling.

I was planning on doing something similar with Samus, but I agree with DDM that this isn't the best time.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Somebody That's exactly what we want to do in order to make the scaling more easier, which is one of the main goals that profiles like this one would need.

Same here, I would also have to agree to postpone this as well.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Again, there's 0 reason to divide Mario's profiles based on each and every game when he's like super consistent with the various Tier 4 feats throughout multiple games + the lore regarding the Power Stars still remaining official. We don't need to make it so that, "He's barely shown anything beyond Tier 9 an Odyssey where as he's Tier 2 in the galaxy games and in Dream Team", as opposed to just using common sense with the existence of outliers and PIS.

And as for Samus, her stats abilities vary based on what Suit she's wearing and what power ups she's currently obtained. Though, I at the very least think certain keys would be easier to read in her case if the Zero Mission keys for instance had their own page.

 

[NotAMarioFan(lol)]

I agree with @DDM

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@DarkDragon Once again, not a singular game, a series of games. Well, I wouldn't say "super" in terms of consistency but they're still consistent to an extent. Odyssey is fine. Giant Luigi is pretty much the only decently acceptable Tier 2 of the Mario Bros (excluding the other characters who are legit tier 2 besides him ofc) in Dream Team but somehow doesn't count in this case, so oh well.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Either way, series is all still part of one timeline. And it's not like we know what games are in what order and what games have made him grow stronger or weaker. The only distinction that can reasonably be made is a distinction between Baby Mario and Adult Mario. However, even Baby Mario scales from consistent Tier 4 and Massively FTL+ feats that are all throughout the Yoshi's Island series. Going from baby to full grown man somehow makes him much weaker in some random spots.