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Mario Universe Revisions.
- Thread starter ZephyrosOmega
- Start date
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- goomba mario mario bros rosalina
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Personally I don't agree with scaling to Rosalina based on stuff like 3D world for reasons previously mentioned but I'm also iffy about the fact you don't even get to play as her til after Bowsers already beaten so being able to get harmed by Goombas seems like abusing game mechanics for scaling.
If I had to give a comparison in DBZ Sagas you can unlock Broly as a playable character and Radtiz can kick his ass in gameplay but nobody would argue that means he scales.
If I had to give a comparison in DBZ Sagas you can unlock Broly as a playable character and Radtiz can kick his ass in gameplay but nobody would argue that means he scales.
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I don't get where we have the notion that "the lowliest of Minions" in a verse with superhumans out the wazoo somehow makes Goombas amd the Minions superior to them merely "Wall level". I also feel like they SHOULD scale to their speed feats and reaction times as some Goombas can attack Mario and Co. and legit react to them as far as Super Mario Odyssey and as early as New Super Mario Bros. or Galaxy. Amd while Mario can gain control of a Goomba, if their body's weren't capable of sustaining as low as an MHS+ character, then Mario would literally not be able to react to anytbing as a Goomba mor have a use for their transformation. Mario transforms into things and gains their attributes and abilities, and the fact that same game has him traversing and maneuvering as electricity from a power line as well as him not having any noticeable stat boosts while in other forms unless they're just >> other transformations for obvious reasons like a Chain Chomp's physiology or Bowser himself, then I see no reason why we have these made-up tiers for them when they SHOULD logically scale to the lower-ends of the verse, which even then amongat the spin-offs and main canon have hypersonic and at least building to city block level characters.
I'm glad the residential Mario guy agrees with the Power Star rating being stupid when Mario legit has never actually utilised Power Stars to boost his AP in canon and the very nature of their abilities is counterintuitive since a Base Mario, Yoshi, and Wario can beat supposedly amped characters with these things as well as Bowser having magic that needed a good quantity of those Power Stars he actively hid away to dispel its effects. Bowser might have had the Big Power Star, but in every other fight, he merely drops a key that unlocks more of the castle and if he DID have that Big Power Star then, then that means Maeio even with a smaller quantity was still above a supposedly amped Bowser yet STILL needed more to revert the effects of Bowser's magic. None of it makes sense.
Also, unlike Link, where most of his explanations come in the form of him gaining stronger abilities as he grows alomg his journey, most Mario games don't have such a story and typically have all characters at their casual bases, to which even if you argued early game RPGs, they still have building to city block level feats.
As far as universal characters? Dreamy Bowser, if you don't try and mix canons and elements from Mario Party into the RPG that literally retcons that game's source of dreams DOES have at least MSS stats considering the backgrounds of the dreams had stars and constellations while the Giant Battles have Luigi literally jump high into space. Using the displayed sizes of the dreams from the source allows it to fall consistent with 4-A ratings. King Boo, Black Jewel, Bowser in 64 and the whole "Mario characters beating amped bosses in base who were powered by things that supposedly could create dimensions with entire star systems", some of Paper Mario's attacks in Paper Jam, the Solar System feat in Galaxy, and likely more.
For actual support towars the OP's post? We have Culex, Dreamy Bowser, Megabug, Bowser wanting to do his shenanigans in Mario Party like destroying all dreams or something like that, his vague survival statement from the Prima Guides, Rosalina being constantly said to "hold her own" with the heavy hitters of the series in spin-offs with her "cosmic powers", the Grand Stars being the reason Bowser's machine malfunctioned and devoured the universe, Lumas being comparable to Power Stars supposedly of which Mario has shown he doesn't need them to beat characters powered by them, the black hole in MP effecting the galaxies in the background supposedly, the Sammer Kingdom thing, and likely more.
But my word isn't likely to be taken with any merit.
I'm glad the residential Mario guy agrees with the Power Star rating being stupid when Mario legit has never actually utilised Power Stars to boost his AP in canon and the very nature of their abilities is counterintuitive since a Base Mario, Yoshi, and Wario can beat supposedly amped characters with these things as well as Bowser having magic that needed a good quantity of those Power Stars he actively hid away to dispel its effects. Bowser might have had the Big Power Star, but in every other fight, he merely drops a key that unlocks more of the castle and if he DID have that Big Power Star then, then that means Maeio even with a smaller quantity was still above a supposedly amped Bowser yet STILL needed more to revert the effects of Bowser's magic. None of it makes sense.
Also, unlike Link, where most of his explanations come in the form of him gaining stronger abilities as he grows alomg his journey, most Mario games don't have such a story and typically have all characters at their casual bases, to which even if you argued early game RPGs, they still have building to city block level feats.
As far as universal characters? Dreamy Bowser, if you don't try and mix canons and elements from Mario Party into the RPG that literally retcons that game's source of dreams DOES have at least MSS stats considering the backgrounds of the dreams had stars and constellations while the Giant Battles have Luigi literally jump high into space. Using the displayed sizes of the dreams from the source allows it to fall consistent with 4-A ratings. King Boo, Black Jewel, Bowser in 64 and the whole "Mario characters beating amped bosses in base who were powered by things that supposedly could create dimensions with entire star systems", some of Paper Mario's attacks in Paper Jam, the Solar System feat in Galaxy, and likely more.
For actual support towars the OP's post? We have Culex, Dreamy Bowser, Megabug, Bowser wanting to do his shenanigans in Mario Party like destroying all dreams or something like that, his vague survival statement from the Prima Guides, Rosalina being constantly said to "hold her own" with the heavy hitters of the series in spin-offs with her "cosmic powers", the Grand Stars being the reason Bowser's machine malfunctioned and devoured the universe, Lumas being comparable to Power Stars supposedly of which Mario has shown he doesn't need them to beat characters powered by them, the black hole in MP effecting the galaxies in the background supposedly, the Sammer Kingdom thing, and likely more.
But my word isn't likely to be taken with any merit.
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The dream worlds are universe sized so Dreamy Bowser is 2-B.
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According to retroactive scaling from a mere statement made about a single dream. Hell, that's even treated as a special case within the context of the game itself considering it's merely based on a theme from a kid with space on the mind or something like that.
We can't treat every dream as a universe based on a single exception and a bold statement that's super cliché for space adventures, as well as utilising stuff from a game that was made before Dream Team which specifically retcons that game's source of dreams. But whatever.
We can't treat every dream as a universe based on a single exception and a bold statement that's super cliché for space adventures, as well as utilising stuff from a game that was made before Dream Team which specifically retcons that game's source of dreams. But whatever.
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Pretty sure you're just misinterpreting his argument.Bobsican said:
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Until they have legit feats of their own, we are not scaling ANYONE to Rosalina. Period. She's the only character on her debut that displayed legit feats or are associated with characters/items around the scale, thus why she was given the rating. Saying the other characters should scale because of 3D World is like saying a Goomba should scale to Bowser because he can use them for special attacks against the likes of Dark Bowser in M and L: BIS. No matter how you see it, that doesn't make any logical sense. It's just a mere game balancing and mechanics on an established lore. Just like trainers being able to catch the Creation Trio from Pokemon and use them for battles, despite their duties in maintaining time and space.
We have already established that the feats Mario achieves in the Galaxy games and Dream Team should be written off as outliers since it will make the scaling inconsistent. Especially since many of them involves Bowser, who is already scaled off from Mario and Yoshi's base stats, being the one utilizing these new found powers and still loses to the former character, who received no enhancements of his own. Scaling the recurring cast's base form from this would meaning scaling Bowse to them as well, which would make no sense since it would mean Bowser is Universal/Multiversal in base despite gaining drastic power boosts to achieve this in the first place.
In conclusion, no. Everyone's current tier remains where they are.
We have already established that the feats Mario achieves in the Galaxy games and Dream Team should be written off as outliers since it will make the scaling inconsistent. Especially since many of them involves Bowser, who is already scaled off from Mario and Yoshi's base stats, being the one utilizing these new found powers and still loses to the former character, who received no enhancements of his own. Scaling the recurring cast's base form from this would meaning scaling Bowse to them as well, which would make no sense since it would mean Bowser is Universal/Multiversal in base despite gaining drastic power boosts to achieve this in the first place.
In conclusion, no. Everyone's current tier remains where they are.
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I agree with DRB.
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^
Mephistus
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For what its worth on the void feat in SPM, the guidebook actually says they passed through the void and the game's narration even reinforces they survived it. There was no shenanigns where they were protected by Dimentio or anything.
https://archive.org/details/SuperPaperMarioPrimaGuideHQ/page/n117
"the Void goes critical and swallows the entire dimension, Sammer Guys, gates, and heroes are all pulled into the Void"
Thing is, as the second page 118 postulates, that would mean they are beyond the power of a single Pure Heart to survive this, or 1/8th of the power of the Purity Heart / Chaos Heart if we were to scale that way since the Void was still growing in power. At worst it would be universalish, but even that's downplay since it affected the Pure Heart. The Pure Hearts themselves are literal infinities so dividing their power 8 to get an idea for powerscaling seems lulzy. Them being even a fraction of a high multiversal level destroying artificact means they'd end up in the same tier since its so high multiversal.
There's no vague way to say that they didn't get hurt too, since they woke up after getting knocked out, even the guide details that.
https://archive.org/details/SuperPaperMarioPrimaGuideHQ/page/n117
"the Void goes critical and swallows the entire dimension, Sammer Guys, gates, and heroes are all pulled into the Void"
Thing is, as the second page 118 postulates, that would mean they are beyond the power of a single Pure Heart to survive this, or 1/8th of the power of the Purity Heart / Chaos Heart if we were to scale that way since the Void was still growing in power. At worst it would be universalish, but even that's downplay since it affected the Pure Heart. The Pure Hearts themselves are literal infinities so dividing their power 8 to get an idea for powerscaling seems lulzy. Them being even a fraction of a high multiversal level destroying artificact means they'd end up in the same tier since its so high multiversal.
There's no vague way to say that they didn't get hurt too, since they woke up after getting knocked out, even the guide details that.
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@Mephistus 1. The Chaos and Pure Hearts are 2-B, not 2-A. There's nothing implying an infinite no. of worlds are being destroyed. Just every one that exists.
2. It's not downplay if we never seen the capabilities of a single Pure Heart.
3. I'm going to have to read that link and analyze it myself. But the decision will likely be more or less the same, regardless.
2. It's not downplay if we never seen the capabilities of a single Pure Heart.
3. I'm going to have to read that link and analyze it myself. But the decision will likely be more or less the same, regardless.
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To be fair Mephistus never mentioned anything about 2-A.
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@ShadowWarrior He stated that they are High Multiversal artifacts, which is clearly not the case.
Dust_Collector
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Based on his wording I'm 99% sure he's not actually saying they are High Multiversal artifacts just but rather that they're high into the Multiversal tier.
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It appears like what he meant by high multiversal is that the Mario multiverse is really big, not that it has infinite universes.
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Not the correct word to imply that but I understand.
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Yeah, Mario's god tiers are just an astronomically high degree of 2-B not 2-A at all. And I agree with him 100%.
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I also agree wih DRB. Should we close this thread, or should an explanation rule be included in the Mario Bros verse page first?
Mephistus
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Rethinking the Pure Heart powerscaling to it surviving an incomplete Void shiz, since technically it did "survive", it was left as stone, maybe it would be better to not use that to gauge the feat on that merit for the characters being some level of 2-B.
Well, it'd be low 2-C tier at worst then, for their base forms based on tanking the Void at that point head on since its supposed to be spatial and time destruction along with conventional destruction (Bleck's castle falling apart just from the Void's mere shockwaves quaking it along with it shaking dimensions, it actually being stated in the guide that level of destruction was going on).
Well, it'd be low 2-C tier at worst then, for their base forms based on tanking the Void at that point head on since its supposed to be spatial and time destruction along with conventional destruction (Bleck's castle falling apart just from the Void's mere shockwaves quaking it along with it shaking dimensions, it actually being stated in the guide that level of destruction was going on).
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Mario cast surviving the dimensional destruction is still an outlier. Individual Pure Hearts having some kind of power also makes sense given then one Pure Heart while losing its power was still intact after the dimensional destruction, but I still don't think they'd scale to anyone. DRB has still spoken that all base forms stay where they are.
And I'll wait for DRB for asking if we need an explanation in the verse page.
And I'll wait for DRB for asking if we need an explanation in the verse page.
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We don't really need one as we already made it an official rule in the discussion sectio. Should it happen again, we can simply link or refer to it.
Mephistus
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....There's only a rule against 2-B base paper mario shiz, not 2-C tho.
And regarding it being an outlier in my opinion there's also 2 instances of Grand Stars (same things that was said destroy with the fabric of the universe with it's energy) being put into mechas to power them in Super Mario Galaxy 2 that Mario takes hits from and destroys, being physically comparable.
And regarding it being an outlier in my opinion there's also 2 instances of Grand Stars (same things that was said destroy with the fabric of the universe with it's energy) being put into mechas to power them in Super Mario Galaxy 2 that Mario takes hits from and destroys, being physically comparable.
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That being said, even the Power Stars and Grand Stars aren't entirely consistent. Power Stars ranging from High 4-C to 3-C is consistent, but Grand Stars range from 3-C to Low 2-C which the latter is quite inconsistent for Mario's regular showings.
And technically, the only time it's implied Power Stars do empower Mario is in Yoshi's Island DS, other times he simply collects them and he uses them as gateways whenever he does use them. But he does consistently fight Bosses empowered by Power Stars even without any Power Stars in his possession. But it also should be noted Mario also had Grand Stars himself whenever he fought Grand Star powered enemies.
And actually, the discussion rule used to be against 2-C back when Dream Stone was 2-C, but it got ampred to 2-B. But Tier 2 in general is out of the question for base Mario or Base Bowser ect.
And technically, the only time it's implied Power Stars do empower Mario is in Yoshi's Island DS, other times he simply collects them and he uses them as gateways whenever he does use them. But he does consistently fight Bosses empowered by Power Stars even without any Power Stars in his possession. But it also should be noted Mario also had Grand Stars himself whenever he fought Grand Star powered enemies.
And actually, the discussion rule used to be against 2-C back when Dream Stone was 2-C, but it got ampred to 2-B. But Tier 2 in general is out of the question for base Mario or Base Bowser ect.
Bobsican
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Low 2-C Mario and Luigi via Grand Stars?
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@DRB
Can you take a look at the rule to see if it needs to be modified, and then copy-paste it to the Mario Bros verse page, as the Mario fans among our visitors don't seem to notice it.
Can you take a look at the rule to see if it needs to be modified, and then copy-paste it to the Mario Bros verse page, as the Mario fans among our visitors don't seem to notice it.
Mephistus
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Imma need to see some proof on that lol. 100% sure Mario/Luigi didn't have Grand Star's on their person when they took hits from the Boomsday Machine and the Megahammer boss's main weapons. Which even fricken Yoshi can take a direct hit from Megahammer's main cannon thing after it was charged up and not be pasted from it.
3-C is scaling from creation feats by the Luma, no? Isnt that like the most pacifist dudes to scale feats from if you are gonna use them as the absolute bottom range for the Grand Stars tier?
I mean 3 times a feats been done on that tier sounds like there's an arguement to be made. XD Its not a statistical outlier then.
3-C is scaling from creation feats by the Luma, no? Isnt that like the most pacifist dudes to scale feats from if you are gonna use them as the absolute bottom range for the Grand Stars tier?
I mean 3 times a feats been done on that tier sounds like there's an arguement to be made. XD Its not a statistical outlier then.
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Everyone, you are getting the lore all wrong and mixed up.The Power Stars never appeared in Yoshi's Island DS. Those are Star Children. Mario and Luigi never used the Grand Stars beyond opening portals.
@Ant Other than a grammactical mistake, the rules are fine but there's no need to copy and paste it. It's not a glaring issue to begin with as most tend to be ignored or not taken serioes and as far as I'm concern, this issue only occured this week since it's been over three years since the last time it was addressed. Like I said, a simple reference is fine.
@Ant Other than a grammactical mistake, the rules are fine but there's no need to copy and paste it. It's not a glaring issue to begin with as most tend to be ignored or not taken serioes and as far as I'm concern, this issue only occured this week since it's been over three years since the last time it was addressed. Like I said, a simple reference is fine.
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Oh, they haven't? I thought that was the reason Wario and Donkey Kong had Power Star keys. Or was it a different game? But yeah, Mario or Luigi never actually used Grand Stars for combat and merely had them in their collection.
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@DarkDragonMedeus Actually, it was from SM64DS and MP2 is where it came from. Regardless, you are still correct. I don't know who claimed they used the Grand Stars in the first place. As far as I'm concern, only Bowser and Rosalina (As owner and creator) have been their notable users.
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So how's the revision coming along? Are there any changes? I also think that Mario should have Paper_Manipulation
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@Ant Basically, nothing. Majority of us are pretty much against this and are fine with the way the profiles are. The only thing to do now is close the thread.
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