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Mario 2-B downgrade (But possibly the return of 4-A base Mario)

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I would also like to point out that while the Zeekeeper was crossing dreams, Dreambert reffered to them as dimensions. Anyways I'm on the side of 2-B staying. The Maginaryworld is diffrent because one of the dreams contains all of the dreams. The Dream Depot however has separated dreams. Just like what DDM said, Future Dream is a dream full of stars. While that is only 4-A, the guidebook stated it to be a universe and Misstar stated it was a universe as well. As well as the other statements in Dream Team, it's clear that the dreams are universes.
 
Eficiente said:
There is also the fact that to be 2-C there would need to be a 4-Dimensional space between their universes, which I'm pretty sure is not the case here.
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I'm pretty sure they are. In Super Mario Galaxy 2 you can get to another world through a portal. To get to each world, you need to travel through space and time. In Super Paper Mariomario you get to each world via a dimensional door. There are several statements of them being infinite.
 
OP was questioning the 2-B status of some characters and also wants to upgrade Base Mario to 4-A via Antasma. I think.
 
I'm currently in the middle of elaborating. I'll explain what's going on.
 
Well, I know you're not quite familiar with Sonic, but I'll give you a pretty legit summary of the thread's motivation while also trying to be nice to them.

A few people are pretty disappointed about a Sonic character being downgraded from 2-B to Low 2-C. The reason was because a world known as a Maginary World was stated as a Universe and contains multiple Dreams. And those individual dreams are stated to be "worlds" or "dimensions", but never stated to be universes. But fans wanted to call them universes just because "those words mean universes". But in said verse, all those dreams put together is the only confirmed universe.

But after she was downgraded, they basically turned to Mario just because they're painting it as a double standard despite Mario having different context. We're basically elaborating that Dream Depot does in fact turn Dreams into Universes and are outright stated to be universes. Which is further elaborated in Dream Team about their existing Dream Team which has many Dream Worlds. And on top of that, they're questioning Dimentio and other Mario god Tiers 2-B ratings. I tried explaining in detail for each sentiment that the individual dimensions in Super Paper Mario are in fact Universes. And that the Dream Worlds are also Universes and that 2-B ratings are staying; and that other characters should stay where they are.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
But after she was downgraded, they basically turned to Mario just because they're painting it as a double standard despite Mario having different context.
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Tbf I think only one person here (Smashor) sees it that way.
 
Well, I still don't know the exact details, so correct me if I'm wrong, but this does seem like a downgrade done without context since there are several differences.

From what you are telling me DDM, it seems like the Imaginary World is created from these dreams and is the one confirmed to be a universe. I'm guessing the reason the downgrade happened because it doesn't seem to make sense that mutiple universes creates a singular one. I still don't know much on the details and chances are there might be something we all missed, so I can't really say wether this is right or wrong.

The thing is, this doesn't affect the MP5 nor Dream Team. The Dream Depot wasn't created from the merging of these dreams or existed because of them. It's simply already there or presumably created by the Star Spirits (More so the former). On top of that, it's the dreams themselves to be confirmed to be universes via Future Dream, not the Dream Depot. There's a huge contrast between a realm holding other realms being a universes and the actual realms themselves being universes. Mutiple realms that created a universe is pretty different to a realm holding mutiple of universes. I have to go to bed but that's all for now.
 
Okay, thank you for your help anyway and I do hope you get a good rest. And yeah, most of the Sonic fans here are fine; ShadowWarrior, MyHero, and Maverick are all pretty good people. It's mostly just one or two people who are pretty heated.
 
I just want to say that the dreams worlds being called world and dimension doesn't mean that they are universes, Nor they having galaxies or being called "dream of the universe", that just means that the universe dreamed it.

The void grows every second but that's not related to it consuming universes every second, or the Void would have the same size in every world if it was related to it's number of universes created.

Also DDM don't put me in the same camp as Smashor, I just wanted to find more information about those dreams, that's why I asked first in a message wall
 
Anyways I changed my mind and I now disagree with the downgrade, it would be pretty hypocritical of me who disagreeded( and still do) with the Illumina downgrade to suppport this, especialy since the dream depot is more clear than Marginary World and the dreams don't form one universe( even though I believe that all dreams can still be universes and be in Marginary World, but I digress).

I still disagreee with the notion that every time the Void grows a universe is destroyed though, I don't renember that ever being said in the game, the size of the Void is how close your universe is of destruction, nothing else, that's why it's size is diferent in each world
 
Well then, I suppose this is fine. But I would reccomend that someone links the scans that prove the dream worlds are universes on the profiles themselves so that this dosn't happen again. As of now, none of the scans used as evidence here are on the profiles. I feel like it would be a good idea to change that, as to prevent confusion.

I didn't make this out of spite or anything. Since the main reason Maginaryworld was considered 2-B before was because dream worlds are considered to be universes by default in situations like this. Since there were no actual scans or proof on the profiles themselves to say otherwise, I assumed Dream Depot was the same. While Maginaryworld and Dream Depot do have several differences, you have to admit that on a base level they are the same. Places where dreams are brought to life.

Also, the 4-A would be because Dreamy Bowser, Zeekeeper, etc... being 4-A would make 4-A Mario consistant enough to bring it back. Though, this obviously isn't happening now.

Anyways, with these revisions over, hopefully we can get to other, more simple revisions. Good day, all.
 
Staying neutral, but I am going to say one thing.

I personally think it's ridiculous that the "stars in the background" setting argument doesnt support a dimension being a universal structure. And even more so with galaxies. Why are we only assuming something is only as big as whats shown when something only being limited to "x" size is something thats pretty specific?
 
To clarify the differences, "Stars in the background" supports the idea of a Universe, but doesn't prove it. There's a difference. Galaxies further support the idea yes, but once again doesn't prove it. The reason Illumina was downgraded was solely because none Individual Dreams were never outright stated to be universes; only the very Maginary World that literally contains everything was stated to be a full Universe. No one is saying that it's impossible for the individual dreams in there to be Universes, just that they need a specific statement and at best can only be assumed as pocket realities for the time being. And the dreams aren't what create Maginary World yes, "Made of of Dreams" simply means its a Universe with the intent of connecting everyone's dreams.

Dream Depot from Mario on the other hand actually has statements about individual Dreams being entire universes as shown above and what Dino has said. Such as the Future Dream, which is no different from any other Dream World being a literal interpretation of the expanded universe as well as individual Dream Worlds in Dream Team having statements about infinite amounts of 3D Space. And Super Paper Mario also still has statements of there existing countless universes, and the void does literally grow stronger every second. But each time it grows even a spec, an entire universe is devoured. And if anything, it probably devouvers universes every small fraction of a second given the vast size of Mario's Multiverse and the existence of Dream Depot. But just the mere fact that the Void grows at rapid speeds and the back up statements is simply a back up statement that Mario's multiverse would still be 2-B regardless of the Dream Depot's existence.

I too am glad that just about everything is settled. And just a note @User and @Smashor, I never meant to directly accuse you guys. I was simply tired of the circular arguments and wasn't pleased with the initial accusation coming from Smashor. I was in the middle of looking for better/more direct scans while also waiting for DRB who could explain it better than I can; so I had to use placeholders for the time being. But some scans and explanations were given by other users for sure.
 
Before this thread is closesd, If you can please link where it's said that everytime the Void grows a universe is destroyed? I really don't renember this and I played Super Paper Mario multiple times
 
One direct quote is this.

It is a hole in the very dimensional fabric of space! Such a strange phenomenon... Is it near or far? None know, It may appear small now, but it will only grow. And in the end it will swallow all existence.. All worlds, all dimensions...

It basically explains that grows endlessly. And still don't know where it specifically says it, but the Void's size depends on how many Dimensions have been consumed by it. And just a note, the very first Universe consumed by the Void was the very same Universe Blumiere and Timpani were born from. 2:15 to 3:00, the very instant the Void was awakened, it instantly devoured its first universe. Which it quickly continued, especially with Peach and Bowser's wedding skyrocketing it. And it is shown to shake the entire multiverse multiple times through the series.
 
True, I just wanted to know where's it's said that it's size is related to the number of universes consumed, from what I renember the size was in relation of how close the universe is of destruction, that's why it's size is diferent in each world

Also wasn't the Void created from the Chaos Heart which was only created from Peach's and Bowser's wedding? It wouldn't make sense for the Void to exist before the Chaos Heart.
 
Actually, the Dark Prognosticus existed for many years and the Chaos Heart was inside it. But the power of the Void was sealed inside it. Carso hinted that Dimentio might actually be much older than people realize and was hinted to be the one who created the Dark Prognosticus given the fact he was mentioned and seemed to know about the details long before Bleck even opened it. Peach and Bowser's wedding basically fueled it.
 
Ha, the more you know, probaly Peach and Bowser's wedding was what released the Chaos Heart fully so that it could destroy all worlds
 
@Theuser789 Techinically, the reason The Void took a while to grow is because Count Bleck isn't a compatable host. According to Dimentio and the Dark Prognosticus, Luigi is the perfect host of the Chaos Heart. Hence, why was part of Dimentio's plan to fuse himself, Luigi, and the Chaos Heart to become Super Dimentio. As you can see at 8:45, all worlds are simutaneously being eradicated and at an immediate pace as well, compared to the entire game when Count Bleck held it.
 
Yeah, I knew already that Luigi was the better host, my question was when it was said in the game that every time the Void grows a universe is destroyed, I don't renember that part
 
@Theuser789 It might be an optional conversation in some part of the game, because I only recall it's meant to end all of them in the beginning of the game.
 
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