Maou Gakuin Retribution Series Part 1

[Tatsumi504]

Then this would be pretty much textbook power nullification. It may serve as a resistance in practice, but the mechanism is definitively power nullification.

I never said it isn't power nullification. There's is a difference between wearing anti-magic causing you to not be affected by madness manipulation, space-time BFR, existence erasure etc and using anti-magic to cut spell formula.
In the former, it isn't cutting any spell formula, in the latter it is. This ability to cut spell formula isn't universal, it depends on the skill and knowledge of the user. Cutting spell formula requires one to be able to understand/decipher the formula as various spell formula are extremely complex https://i.gyazo.com/bade97f22e233af84db39a72adc3aa4f.png

https://i.gyazo.com/9cb284d6c2dac8e753e1a284a101709e.png

 

[Theglassman12]

@Tatsumi504 prove that this magic lightning can do the exact same side effects as natural lightning, plus the fact he's in pain in the scan shows how disingenuous you are with arguing since it shows the exact opposite.

It literally says right here that the MEoD can destroy magic and is called the ultimate form of anti magic. Don't know why you're flat out ignoring the scans you posted but whatever.

Aisha poured magic power into the Magic Eye of Creation and Destruction and looked at the crescent moon Artieltonoa. For a moment, she thought the outline of the moon was blurred, but there was no change. "Isn't that impossible......?" "I don't have enough magic."

This sounds like she doesn't have enough magic to cast the spell.

Yeah still not seeing resistance being overpowered here.

That's not what you were arguing, you said that with more magic power they'd overcome resistances, that's not remotely what's stated in any scan you posted.

The "trust me bro" is on your end since you didn't post the evidence, instead of accusing the opposition, provide evidence next time.

So is the manga so your point is moot the moment you started using the manga panels to prove your point on anti magic barriers.

I respond in order of the paragraphs you type. Just line up your responses with mine and you'll know which paragraph I'm responding to in that instance. Resistance has numerous different meanings in the general english dictionary, we use Resistance in a very specific way. So saying "resistance" when the context of the series does not show "they can shrug off certain spells" type resistance isn't helping you.

Again, not helping your case when Anti-magic is shown to have power null mechanics more often than an actual resistance. I'll let you post one last time to bring any actual scans that anti-magic means resistance and not a power null or barrier type thing. Cause we already got enough staff members to comment here.

 

[Tatsumi504]

prove that this magic lightning can do the exact same side effects as natural lightning, plus the fact he's in pain in the scan shows how disingenuous you are with arguing since it shows the exact opposite.

In pain? Strike 2, that's the 2nd time now. First it was switching the scans, now it's taking separate context regarding a separate character.
Nothing there indicates Jerga is in pain. The only time pain was mentioned in this thread involves Ivis and Fire manipulation and has nothing to do with this.
Same lightning already conducting heat, is conducted through metals

It literally says right here that the MEoD can destroy magic and is called the ultimate form of anti magic. Don't know why you're flat out ignoring the scans you posted but whatever.

Context. What makes the MEoD the ultimate form anti-magic? It is the ability to destroy magic. It won't be called ultimate form,if all anti-magic can do the same.
What makes tungsten the ultimate non-conductor of heat? It has the highest melting point.

This sounds like she doesn't have enough magic to cast the spell.

Yeah still not seeing resistance being overpowered here.

That's not what you were arguing, you said that with more magic power they'd overcome resistances, that's not remotely what's stated in any scan you posted.

Explain why Nosgalia's ability suddenly worked on Anos spell despite failing previously, explain why the dorfumnd bloodline suddenly don't resist their own curses, explain why Anos says Ennesuone doesn't have enough magic power to resist Wesnera's bondage prison, explain how Sasha's resistance to Poison increased with her magic power increasing and several others.
Either way, you're entitled to your opinion

The "trust me bro" is on your end since you didn't post the evidence, instead of accusing the opposition, provide evidence next time.

So you didn't read the entire OP? There's nothing here that doesn't have the required scans to prove it. I even took tye extra effort to give the exact chapters and volumes

Resistance has numerous different meanings in the general english dictionary, we use Resistance in a very specific way. So saying "resistance" when the context of the series does not show "they can shrug off certain spells" type resistance isn't helping you.

The context of the series outlines it as resistance. If you're negating the effect of something on you that is resistance. The resistance page even says it's obtained through varying means.

So saying "resistance" when the context of the series does not show "they can shrug off certain spells" type resistance isn't helping you.

Anti-magic is literally shown shrugging off spells and is called magic resistance, said magic resistance that is established as resistance.

Again, not helping your case when Anti-magic is shown to have power null mechanics more often than an actual resistance.

Again, show one scan where normal anti-magic has power null mechanics.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

At this point just wait for @DarkGrath reply.

 

[Theglassman12]

It's still using anti-magic as an explanation which again is not resistance.

Still doesn't refute my point that it's still stated to be anti-magic and it destroys other magic, AKA not resistance focused. Your tungsten point is such a non-sequiter as it barely has any similarities with MEoD.

Where does it say Anos was affected but just ends up adapting? Especially when this is the same guy who says "do you really think this would work on me" every other fight so I'm doubting this is a layer hax shit.

So you haven't payed any attention to what I've been saying, good to know. I'm referring to Fuji's Thread where you claimed she's being dishonest despite the fact she's arguing about the lack of scans for anything that implies resistance.

Yeah, and power nulling an ability for it to not work on you is not something we consider resistance, it's power null, simple as that.

Sure, here's two scans that suggests it's power null. Nothing you've shown me has proven it's resistance. Still counting my vote as disagree.

 

[Tatsumi504]

It's still using anti-magic as an explanation which again is not resistance.

Strike 3, nothing about lightning resistance comes from anti-magic

Still doesn't refute my point that it's still stated to be anti-magic and it destroys other magic, AKA not resistance focused. Your tungsten point is such a non-sequiter as it barely has any similarities with MEoD.

It does refute your point. It is the ultimate form because it has the ability to destroy magic. Simply show where normal anti-magic is said to possess the ability to destroy magic.
It isn't a non-sequiter. Xn is the ultimate form of a species X because it has the ability to do Y which X can't do.

Where does it say Anos was affected but just ends up adapting? Especially when this is the same guy who says "do you really think this would work on me" every other fight so I'm doubting this is a layer hax shit.

1.Nosgalia controls all magic, takes control of a characters magic
2. Nosgalia cannot control Anos magic because Anos resists
3. Nosgalia inputs more magic power in his ability
4.Nosgalia's ability overcomes the resistance.

So you haven't payed any attention to what I've been saying, good to know. I'm referring to Fuji's Thread where you claimed she's being dishonest despite the fact she's arguing about the lack of scans for anything that implies resistance.

Water under the bridge

Yeah, and power nulling an ability for it to not work on you is not something we consider resistance, it's power null, simple as that.

The ability wasn't power nulled, the effect was.

Sure, here's two scans that suggests it's power null. Nothing you've shown me has proven it's resistance. Still counting my vote as disagree.

Explain how cutting chains is power null and how blocking transmissions is power null as well. I'll wait

 

[Theglassman12]

Even though it literally talks about anti magic so this whole strike thing you’re doing means nothing here.

I love you just refuse to read any of the scans I show that you posted in the OP. Almost like you don’t have an argument anymore and resort to moving the goalpost.

That didn’t remotely answer my question, show me the exact text that says this.

So you’re agreeing with me, good to know.

Yeah you’re not even reading the scans at this point where it says they’re using anti magic to cancel these magic abilities, so I’m just going to take this as a concession from you and get more staff input to finish this discussion.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Even though it literally talks about anti magic so this whole strike thing you’re doing means nothing here.

Show me where anti-magic was mentioned here
This strike thing I'm doing means everything for me, what I'm using it for should be of no concern to you right now. This makes 4

That didn’t remotely answer my question, show me the exact text that says this.

The scan is there in the past few messages. I'm not going to keep sending the same thing over and over just because you refuse to acknowledge it.

Yeah you’re not even reading the scans at this point where it says they’re using anti magic to cancel these magic abilities, so I’m just going to take this as a concession from you and get more staff input to finish this discussion.

First you said it destroys it, now you're switching to cancel. It interferes with magical communication and teleportation not cancels, it cut chains. How does any of that constitute power null? I'm still waiting on that one scan of normal anti-magic destroying anything

 

[Theglassman12]

@Maverick_Zero_X @Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 Any input here would be appreciated.

 

[DarkGrath]

I don't think that will be necessary, we only want the mod response

And the mods want input from people who are knowledgeable on the verse. You are not in a position to dismiss someone else's input.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

The only meaningful scan provided so far to give credence to the notion that it is resistance is this one which, to be fair, does use the phrase "resistance".

Regarding this.



The fact there are several times characters talks about ones natural individual Resistance to magic. It's clearly mentioned as Characters Naturally Possessing Resistance to magic. Zepes magic Resistance was weakened because he was dependent on Magic Armour meanwhile Anos comments "if he had not dependent on those thing he would have gotten better resistance by training his own magic." Also scan talks about Resisting not about any negating/powernull in there. That magic Armour can Resists all Kind of Magic(stated) Anos later mentioning if Zepes hadn't dependent on that thing he would have developed his Resistance to magic better. Which backs up the fact Characters Naturally possesses considerable amount of Resistance to all kind of magic.

• OP already has few scans where it Explicitly stated as increasing the magic does increases individual resistance to many things (in the verse everything is dependent on the magic) in many scenarios. You can check the Nosgalia power not affecting Anos magic and then affecting him later onwards by increasing the magic, Binding spell , Poison Resistance, Jerga repelling Lighting with magic etc.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Regarding this.



The fact there are several times characters talks about ones natural individual Resistance to magic. It's clearly mentioned as Characters Naturally Possessing Resistance to magic. Zepes magic Resistance was weakened because he was dependent on Magic Armour meanwhile Anos comments "if he had not dependent on those thing he would have gotten better resistance by training his own magic." Also scan talks about Resisting not about any negating/powernull in there. That magic Armour can Resists all Kind of Magic(stated) Anos later mentioning if Zepes hadn't dependent on that thing he would have developed his Resistance to magic better. Which backs up the fact Characters Naturally possesses considerable amount of Resistance to all kind of magic.

• OP already has few scans where it Explicitly stated as increasing the magic does increases individual resistance to many things (in the verse everything is dependent on the magic) in many scenarios. You can check the Nosgalia power not affecting Anos magic and then affecting him later onwards by increasing the magic, Binding spell , Poison Resistance, Jerga repelling Lighting with magic etc.

Thanks, that makes it 3 cases now where anti-magic is referred to as magic resistance. The first with Zepes armor, second with Emilia and the 3rd involving...I think that's Ramon? He's the only other 1st year besides Naya and the main cast to receive any spotlight

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Alright I deleted my first post because I realized there were more scans but like

None of these say that anti-magic = magic resistance. At all. The words "anti-magic" are only in the first scan and nowhere else.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Alright I deleted my first post because I realized there were more scans but like

None of these say that anti-magic = magic resistance. At all. The words "anti-magic" are only in the first scan and nowhere else.

Thanks, that makes it 3 cases now where anti-magic is referred to as magic resistance. The first with Zepes armor, second with Emilia and the 3rd involving...I think that's Ramon? He's the only other 1st year besides Naya and the main cast to receive any spotlight

None of you have actually addressed this besides maintaining obstinacy

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

None of you have actually addressed this besides maintaining obstinacy

What is there to address? You're claiming the scans say something that just plainly isn't there, either clarify which parts I'm supposed to be gathering "anti-magic = magic resistance" from (besides the Zepes stuff, that's been discussed at length), or drop the issue.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Snip.

Dark I believe most of the Confusion comes from Difference Between Offensive and Defensive Anti Magic

Having same name shouldn't Disapprove of Anti Magic having different functions.

I believe here many automatically Believe Anti Magic = Powernull. This is completely wrong.

Regarding Anti Magic I can say when Anti magic is used as offensive it is stated to negate the Magic but when it is used as defensive it's shown to deflect/Resists the magic.

So what I get is it's just Anti magic has different usages Using Offensive Most Probably works as Powernull. But defensive Works as Resistance. We don't see not even a single defensive spell (anti magic) negating any magic in any of the scans. Instead it stated to be resists the magic.

Characters can use their own magic to resist getting sucked into magically created quicksand.

A vast desert stretched out before her. A band of demons on their way to join the Dilhade army were attempting to cross that desert, but Misha was using Iris to create quicksand that was swallowing them one after another.

They tried to resist with their magic, but there was nowhere to hide on the sandy plain. One glance from Sasha’s Magic Eyes of Destruction was all it took to destroy their spell formulae.

Here Anos can wrap Lightining above himself despite Anti magic is active. Lightning was not negated or cancelled instead it was just resisting it. Lightining was above that anti magic layer. If Anti Magic is truly powernull it should have cancelled the effects.

“What?”

The shadow was my unharmed figure, fangs of black lightning wrapped around my arm.

“How? You couldn’t have used anti-magic. Where did you get the magic from?!”

“You may have possessed more magic than I, but you relied too much on brute force, Scarlet Stele King. Take a good look at what happened to the Jirasd you deflected.”

Here defensive anti magic is called as Resistance.

“The flames of god shall pass judgment on thee.”
The rising flames enveloped Shin, burning his body. His anti-magic was unable to resist the flames of god, and his black armor started melting against his skin.

TD:LR:;

• I want to say Defensive Anti Magic is always called as Resistance
• Feats are always Shown as Resistance for Defensive Anti magic
• I am fine with Offensive Anti Magic is used as Powernull But when characters uses Anti Magic as defensive it should be considered as Resistance. Because not even a single scan or statement indicates Defensive Anti Magic Powernulling any magic. It just deflects it off. Magic will still be there.
• Also as I above Mentioned characters should inheritedly have natural Resistance to magic. Anti magic should be considered as extra layers of Resistance.

Mind pinging @Elizhaa most Knowledgeable staff regarding MGK stuff is only him. So it's better to get his input.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Here defensive anti magic is called as Resistance.

It literally says it can't resist.

 

[Tatsumi504]

What is there to address? You're claiming the scans say something that just plainly isn't there, either clarify which parts I'm supposed to be gathering "anti-magic = magic resistance" from (besides the Zepes stuff, that's been discussed at length), or drop the issue.

I grow tired of this. This is already in the OP but you all are refusing to read it. At this point I'm going to ask bambu for help because I've brought this issue to him before.
This is the one involving Ramon and resisting magic eyes. Manga says anti-magic, Novel says magic resistance, spells made to interfere with it.


This is the one involving Emilia. Your CRT says body puppetry requires legit resistance and yet what was mentioned is anti-magic which is just one of the many contradictions I outlined

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I grow tired of this. This is already in the OP but you all are refusing to read it. At this point I'm going to ask bambu for help because I've brought this issue to him before.
This is the one involving Ramon and resisting magic eyes. Manga says anti-magic, Novel says magic resistance, spells made to interfere with it.

Okay, so there's a discrepancy between the manga and novels. In this case we go with what the original says, so in this case it'd be anti-magic and not magic resistance. You are aware of our secondary canon rules, right? Because trying to composite these scenes would be in direct violation of those rules.

This is the one involving Emilia. Your CRT says body puppetry requires legit resistance and yet what was mentioned is anti-magic which is just one of the many contradictions I outlined

Okay, that just means Emilia's anti-magic couldn't nullify Anos' body puppetry. Not sure what that has to do with resistance.

 

[Tatsumi504]

It literally says it can't resist.

Why mention the need to be able to resist? Also, it melted his armor shin was fine.

In this case we go with what the original says, so in this case it'd be anti-magic and not magic resistance

Again? So you didn't read it? Novel says magic resistance, manga says anti-magic. Same Novel also says various spells were developed to interfere with it, spells which will be anti-magic

Okay, that just means Emilia's anti-magic couldn't nullify Anos' body puppetry. Not sure what that has to do with resistance.

Couldn't nullify? Emilia that has been always unaffected by the body puppetry? Anos gave the order twice, the first then the second with more magic power and anger in his words

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Again? So you didn't read it? Novel says magic resistance, manga says anti-magic.

We don't use the manga because it's an adaptation of the novel, so the novel has precedent over whatever the manga says. Please god just read the canon page:

"When different source materials give different versions of the same feat, and by that they contradict each other in the depiction of the feat, the primary canon takes precedence over the secondary canon."

Why mention the need to be able to resist? Also, it melted his armor shin was fine.

"Why is resisting something necessary to prove resistance" has to be bait, right?

Couldn't nullify? Emilia that has been always unaffected by the body puppetry? Anos gave the order twice, the first then the second with more magic power and anger in his words

Okay, so Anos increased the potency of his hax. It's cool that he can do that, but it still doesn't prove what you're saying.

 

[Tatsumi504]

We don't use the manga because it's an adaptation of the novel, so the novel has precedent over whatever the manga says. Please god just read the canon page:

Please read the canon page
Manga says anti-magic, novel says magic resistance
@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara we use the primary canon so it will be anti-magic not magic resistance

Maybe you should take time to read what you wrote. If you also read the OP, you will see were I mentioned I asked a japanese speaker about the raws and they say anti-magic and magic resistance can be used interchangeably

"Why is resisting something necessary to prove resistance" has to be bait, right?

Bait for what?

Okay, so Anos increased the potency of his hax. It's cool that he can do that, but it still doesn't prove what you're saying.

Your CRT says body puppetry requires legit resistance, Novel equates that legit resistance to anti-magic, try again
Also thanks for admitting more magic layers hax. You've contradicted your own CRT once again yet glass refuses to acknowledge it

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Genuinely not even sure how to respond to that. Never have I seen someone miss the point so spectacularly.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

It literally says it can't resist.

? That was not even my point if you don't have anything else to say stop derailing with unnecessary replies.

Anti Magic was called as Resistance in there I didn't even say anything about him resisting Nosgalia flames which is irrelevant to my post.

The Point is if it was Powernull Statement should have mentioned as "his anti magic couldn't destroy the flames" or "His anti magic couldn't erase the flames" instead its mentioned as Resistance when refering Anti Magic function.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

We don't use the manga because it's an adaptation of the novel, so the novel has precedent over whatever the manga says. Please god just read the canon page:



"Why is resisting something necessary to prove resistance" has to be bait, right?


Okay, so Anos increased the potency of his hax. It's cool that he can do that, but it still doesn't prove what you're saying.

It is not Contradiction. I already explained where Anti magic defensive mechanism works as Resistance so words are interchangeable.

If character has Ice Manipulation. If he created a force field then it's considered as Force Field Creation and when he uses that to offensive and created something else like multiple spear or anything to attack others that's called Danmaku.

Anti Magic

• Offensive - Erases Magic (Powernull)
• Defensive - Resists the Magic.(Resistance)

If you claim otherwise Send the scans for defense Anti magic is called as Powernull instead of Resistance. Burden of proof is on you.

 

[Fixxed]

Let me get this simple

The context of manga and novel or even WN and LN is interchangeable. So even if they use different word, it have same meaning. And all of the context is indicate a resistence intead powernull for defensive, even if that powernull it must be passive or already active (yeah i think it will just same as resistance in benefit)

More magic power imply or the scan even blatantly prove that the ability will have more layer of hax

So the point of this CRT is

• Resistance
• Higher layer of ability

If anti magic is resistence then everything that already and can tanked by anti magic will be apply as resistence to that thing

 

[DarkGrath]

Dark I believe most of the Confusion comes from Difference Between Offensive and Defensive Anti Magic

Having same name shouldn't Disapprove of Anti Magic having different functions.

Is there any explicit precedent in the series to the idea that Anti-Magic refers to two different things? You refer to "Offensive Anti-Magic" and "Defensive Anti-Magic" as two different things with different functions that merely share a name, but I've yet to see a scan in this thread that suggests this. I'd expect to see some direct mention of "Offensive" and "Defensive" Anti-Magic that isn't just an inference before I'd be willing to support this notion.

The fact there are several times characters talks about ones natural individual Resistance to magic. It's clearly mentioned as Characters Naturally Possessing Resistance to magic.

I will note that, independently of the Anti-Magic discussion, several of these scans do suggest a legitimate resistance to magic that could be indexed on the profiles. I specify "independently", because (as Fuji mentioned earlier) the way that these scans are phrased does not imply that this resistance is necessarily the same thing as Anti-Magic; in fact, only the first scan actually says "Anti-Magic" in it, and that scan does not use the term "resistance" in a way that aligns with the wiki usage of the term any more than anything else brought up in this thread beforehand. Under this notion, Anti-Magic would still be regarded as a form of power null, but the relevant characters could nevertheless receive a form of magic resistance, whether or not it is a consequence of Anti-Magic.

In general, this discussion has not yielded anything meaningful; there are numerous instances of Anti-Magic functioning as an active negation to Magic in the same way that we would classify as power null for any other verse or character, and every instance of Anti-Magic purportedly working as a resistance requires leaps in rationale and dubious inferences. This debate is about whether Anti-Magic is a resistance to magic, and this whole discussion around semantics and precise details occludes just how little evidence there ultimately is for this claim. As mentioned above, independently of Anti-Magic, I would be comfortable supporting giving characters resistance to magic based on the scans provided by EldemadeDityjon - but the functioning of Anti-Magic, and its relevance to indexing, ought to remain as it is. With how much of this debate has been focused on things that ultimately do not, and cannot, establish with any clarity how or why Anti-Magic acts as a resistance, I highly doubt there is further context that could be added at this stage to meaningfully move this discussion forward.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Is there any explicit precedent in the series to the idea that Anti-Magic refers to two different things? You refer to "Offensive Anti-Magic" and "Defensive Anti-Magic" as two different things with different functions that merely share a name, but I've yet to see a scan in this thread that suggests this. I'd expect to see some direct mention of "Offensive" and "Defensive" Anti-Magic that isn't just an inference before I'd be willing to support this notion.

This is offensive - when Used on offensive manner it's always mentioned as erased or negated

My Magic Eyes of Destruction intervened with Jio Graze. The ultimate form of anti-magic erased the blazing suns in an instant.

This is defensive - When using it for defence it's mentioned as resistance. here the flame is more potent to ignore the resistance so please ignore that part because there are different types of fire manipulation layers in MGK.

The rising flames enveloped Shin, burning his body. His anti-magic was unable to resist the flames of god, and his black armor started melting against his skin.

I can bring few more examples. I will post it if you need them.

I will note that, independently of the Anti-Magic discussion, several of these scans do suggest a legitimate resistance to magic that could be indexed on the profiles. I specify "independently", because (as Fuji mentioned earlier) the way that these scans are phrased does not imply that this resistance is necessarily the same thing as Anti-Magic; in fact, only the first scan actually says "Anti-Magic" in it, and that scan does not use the term "resistance" in a way that aligns with the wiki usage of the term any more than anything else brought up in this thread beforehand. Under this notion, Anti-Magic would still be regarded as a form of power null, but the relevant characters could nevertheless receive a form of magic resistance, whether or not it is a consequence of Anti-Magic.

Shin scans also refers the Anti magic as Resistance.
There are many examples where Anti magic is refered as Resistance ( of course only when used in Defensive manner )

Also read these

This is the one involving Ramon and resisting magic eyes. Manga says anti-magic, Novel says magic resistance, spells made to interfere with it.


This is the one involving Emilia. Fujiwara CRT says body puppetry requires legit resistance and yet what was mentioned is anti-magic which is just one of the many contradictions I outlined

In general, this discussion has not yielded anything meaningful; there are numerous instances of Anti-Magic functioning as an active negation to Magic in the same way that we would classify as power null for any other verse or character, and every instance of Anti-Magic purportedly working as a resistance requires leaps in rationale and dubious inferences. This debate is about whether Anti-Magic is a resistance to magic, and this whole discussion around semantics and precise details occludes just how little evidence there ultimately is for this claim. As mentioned above, independently of Anti-Magic,

I would be comfortable supporting giving characters resistance to magic based on the scans provided by EldemadeDityjon -

Thank you

but the functioning of Anti-Magic, and its relevance to indexing, ought to remain as it is. With how much of this debate has been focused on things that ultimately do not, and cannot, establish with any clarity how or why Anti-Magic acts as a resistance, I highly doubt there is further context that could be added at this stage to meaningfully move this discussion forward.

I agree with this
What I would be willing to suggest is we differentiate how Anti magic is used by character.

• If it's nature is Defensive then we will list it as Resistance
• If character uses them for offensive we will list it as Powernull.

 

[DarkGrath]

This is offensive - when Used on offensive manner it's always mentioned as erased or negated

This is defensive - When using it for defence it's mentioned as resistance. here the flame is more potent to ignore the resistance so please ignore that part because there are different types of fire manipulation layers in MGK.

I'm looking for an "explicit" precedent. That is, some actual mention of Anti-Magic as being two different things. Claiming that there are two different kinds of Anti-Magic, and that they just "mention it as resistance" when the other kind is used, is a very large inference.

I'm not just looking for examples of scans where they say either "Anti-Magic" or "Resistance" or anything along those lines - I'm looking for a scan where the series actually claims that Anti-Magic exists in two forms. This is the crux of the argument, and if true, would be an incredibly integral part of the magic system of this series, so I would expect it would be mentioned somewhere. But no scans so far have said anything of the sort.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I'm looking for an "explicit" precedent. That is, some actual mention of Anti-Magic as being two different things. Claiming that there are two different kinds of Anti-Magic, and that they just "mention it as resistance" when the other kind is used, is a very large inference.

I'm not just looking for examples of scans where they say either "Anti-Magic" or "Resistance" or anything along those lines - I'm looking for a scan where the series actually claims that Anti-Magic exists in two forms. This is the crux of the argument, and if true, would be an incredibly integral part of the magic system of this series, so I would expect it would be mentioned somewhere. But no scans so far have said anything of the sort.

Well I can only give you context and Interpretation.

Also I am not saying Anti Magic = Resistance. My argument is let's split the Anti Magic into two categories as its displayed in the series as both. I can see disregarding one will just Contradicts for other statements.

This is one of the best example I can give just replace Ice Manipulation as Anti magic, force field to Resistance, Danmaku to Powernull. You will see what I am trying to say. Here we don't just give character Only Danmaku Ability
A single skill can function in numerous ways.

If character has Ice Manipulation. If he created a force field then it's considered as Force Field Creation and when he uses that to offensive and created something else like multiple spear or anything to attack others that's called Danmaku.

If we only consider Anti Magic is always powernull that's Contradicts with this statement. Look at this below feat if it was Powernull it should erase the lightining magic but here with Anti Magic you can keep the lightining above your body without erasing it.

What?”

The shadow was my unharmed figure, fangs of black lightning wrapped around my arm.

“How? You couldn’t have used anti-magic. Where did you get the magic from?!”

I am ready to concede on the part anti magic being always being powernull if someone posts the scan for When anti magic is used for defensive technique it's erasing opponent magic instead of Resisting it or repelling it.

I believe extraordinary claims needs extordinary evidence to back it up. Anti Magic being same thing throughout the series needs more evidence to back it. So claiming it as either Powernull or Complete Resistance is completely headcanon.

So it should be considered as case by case and needs to splitted out as Two types.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Is there any explicit precedent in the series to the idea that Anti-Magic refers to two different things? You refer to "Offensive Anti-Magic" and "Defensive Anti-Magic" as two different things with different functions that merely share a name, but I've yet to see a scan in this thread that suggests this. I'd expect to see some direct mention of "Offensive" and "Defensive" Anti-Magic that isn't just an inference before I'd be willing to support this notion.

If you aren't opposed to it, I could provide instances of this that comes with multiple other abilities. Unfortunately, you won't see it being called "offensive" and "defensive".

I will note that, independently of the Anti-Magic discussion, several of these scans do suggest a legitimate resistance to magic that could be indexed on the profiles. I specify "independently", because (as Fuji mentioned earlier) the way that these scans are phrased does not imply that this resistance is necessarily the same thing as Anti-Magic; in fact, only the first scan actually says "Anti-Magic" in it, and that scan does not use the term "resistance" in a way that aligns with the wiki usage of the term any more than anything else brought up in this thread beforehand. Under this notion, Anti-Magic would still be regarded as a form of power null, but the relevant characters could nevertheless receive a form of magic resistance, whether or not it is a consequence of Anti-Magic.

There are two separate scans that show "anti-magic" and "magic reaistance" being terms used interchangeably to which I asked a translator about the raws which they confirmed

In general, this discussion has not yielded anything meaningful; there are numerous instances of Anti-Magic functioning as an active negation to Magic in the same way that we would classify as power null for any other verse or character, and every instance of Anti-Magic purportedly working as a resistance requires leaps in rationale and dubious inferences.

As I said above, I can bring several instance that differentiate between specific applications of anti-magic and what the standard for anti-magic is as well as something being called anti-magic but it neither power nulls nor offers resistance. If you permit it, I'll make a post addressing this issue specifically.
As you've seen, it's a topic that covers a various range of abilities but as I already said in the OP, the resistance it gives is case by case according to what it is shown to do not give resistance to every type of magic that exists

 

[DarkGrath]

If you aren't opposed to it, I could provide instances of this that comes with multiple other abilities. Unfortunately, you won't see it being called "offensive" and "defensive".

That's perfectly alright. It doesn't need to necessarily be referred to by any particular phrase/s - I'm just looking for explicit statements that Anti-Magic takes two separate forms.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

That's perfectly alright. It doesn't need to necessarily be referred to by any particular phrase/s - I'm just looking for explicit statements that Anti-Magic takes two separate forms.

Forms means ?

I have scans when Characters using the anti magic themselves works more like a Ward but when used against others magic as offensive it works as some existence erasure for Magic with no form. Is that enough?

 

[Tatsumi504]

Forms means ?

I have scans when Characters using the anti magic themselves works more like a Ward but when used against others magic as offensive it works as some existence erasure for Magic with no form. Is that enough?

Don't worry, I'll handle it so just relax for now.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Don't worry, I'll handle it so just relax for now.

Should have created a seperate thread for differentiating how same skill can used in different ways.

 

[DarkGrath]

Forms means ?

I have scans when Characters using the anti magic themselves works more like a Ward but when used against others magic as offensive it works as some existence erasure for Magic with no form. Is that enough?

Let me explain with an analogy.

Let's say Anti-Magic is not just a single thing, but two separate things with the same name. The first kind of Anti-Magic just refers to a character's innate ability to survive the effects of magic cast onto them. The second kind of Anti-Magic refers to some kind of mechanism that can be wielded by a person to cancel out magic that it interacts with.

In this hypothetical situation, "Anti-Magic" would be two entirely different things - in the same way that "crane" can refer either to a bird or to a machine used for building, "Anti-Magic" could be used to refer to two different concepts within the same verse.

If this was true, I would expect some explicit mention of this. I would expect, for example, dialogue from a character who explains that "Anti-Magic" refers to two different powers. For something as integral and important to the magic system of this verse as "Anti-Magic" to exist as a homonym that is simply never elaborated on would be an extraordinary oversight on the part of the author, one which I don't believe they would have made. I want some kind of statement that this is indeed the case.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Let me explain with an analogy.

Let's say Anti-Magic is not just a single thing, but two separate things with the same name. The first kind of Anti-Magic just refers to a character's innate ability to survive the effects of magic cast onto them. The second kind of Anti-Magic refers to some kind of mechanism that can be wielded by a person to cancel out magic that it interacts with.

In this hypothetical situation, "Anti-Magic" would be two entirely different things - in the same way that "crane" can refer either to a bird or to a machine used for building, "Anti-Magic" could be used to refer to two different concepts within the same verse.

If this was true, I would expect some explicit mention of this. I would expect, for example, dialogue from a character who explains that "Anti-Magic" refers to two different powers. For something as integral and important to the magic system of this verse as "Anti-Magic" to exist as a homonym that is simply never elaborated on would be an extraordinary oversight on the part of the author, one which I don't believe they would have made. I want some kind of statement that this is indeed the case.

Thanks for explaining.

Definitely not my speciality to explain this. Especially my grammar would just mess it up even worst. So I will leave to Tatsumi.

 

[Fixxed]

so I guess you can put me down for agreeing with the OP

For the vote, i just see DDM that agree, but lordgriffin say he also agree with OP

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

For the vote, i just see DDM that agree, but lordgriffin say he also agree with OP

We already know that. Wait for Tatsumi to reply.

 

[Tatsumi504]

That's perfectly alright. It doesn't need to necessarily be referred to by any particular phrase/s - I'm just looking for explicit statements that Anti-Magic takes two separate forms.

Finally found the time to do this, here's what I could find for now.

EYES OF DESTRUCTION​

Spoiler

These are a unique set of eyes possessed only by Anos Voldigoad, Sasha Necron (Avernyu) and Avos Dilhevia.
These eyes were formed in the Mythical Era when Anos and the Goddess of Destruction Averneyu exchanged one of their eyes with the other.

Anos possessed the Eyes of Chaotic Destruction while the Goddess of Destruction possesses the Divine Eyes of Apocalypse. When both switched eyes, the Eye of Chaotic Destruction and Divine Apocalyptic eye diluted each others powers to form the now weaker Eyes of Destruction.

Essentially, the Eyes of Destruction while called anti-magic, are not actually anti-magic. They're a lesser form of the concept of destruction leading Anos to call it the ultimate form of anti-magic because of it's ability to destroy magic and in other words, is unique and the ability to destroy magic not being something possessed by normal anti-magic. It's ability to destroy also extends to other things besides magic such as destroying;
Physical material (Deconstruction)
Destroying space (spatial manipulation)
Destroying the mind to put people to sleep or in a coma (mind manipulation & sleep manipulation)
Destroy the force behind attacks physical/ magical to reduce their power, reduce one's statistics (Damage reduction & Statistics Reduction)
It can also destroy the effects of magic on a person without destroying the actual magic itself which the series indexes as resistance.

Similar to the Eyes of Destruction utilizing the concept of Destruction, the Order of Abortion uses Abortion to essentially abort magic. Anti-magic can also be used to cut through spell formula and negate the magic however, this isn't an inherent property of anti-magic as for one, anti-magic is made using spell formula and two, cutting formula is something that needs to be actively done by the caster as it is reliant on skill and knowledge. This isn't done with only anti-magic, weapons that have the function to slip through magic and directly cut said formula exist. These are cases @EldemadeDityjon refers to as offensive power nullification.

---

INTERFERENCE MAGIC
This is another specific application of anti-magic which has been outlined however, anti-magic is never said to negate teleportation magic <Gatom>, thought communication <Leaks>, magical perception. It interferes with teleportation, telepathy/mind reading, magical perception empasis on "interfere" not "destroy", "cancel", "negate" etc all while other forms of magic work unimpeded.

Now this is may be speculation on my part but "anti-magic" as a spell might not even be responsible for this. While it is possible anti-magic can be engineered to perform to this specific application such as here. Anos doesn't say they put up anti-magic, he says they put up a ward to prevent <Gatom> from functioning, a ward meaning barrier and it's set up so that their allies can also teleport around inside said barrier which left gaps he could exploit to get through.
It could as well be an unnamed spell which is just classified under the term "anti-magic" as such spells exists examples being:
1.) <Demera>: A spell which covers an area in a barrier of darkness which instills the caster's will into those inside.
Anos originally called this barrier anti-magic until the name is revealed by one of his subordinates. This grants substance to my speculation.

2.) <Lo Maisis>: This is a ward (barrier) that was used by heroes 2,000yrs ago

"Hmmm. What about thought communication <leaks>?"

"No connection. I tried to get close to it with transference "gatom", but it seems that the country is surrounded by the wards that the heroes used to be so good at, and I can't enter."

The wards that blocked <Leaks> and <Gatom>.

"It's the Sealed Area Warding St. <Lo Maisis>. I don't think there are any humans left who can use it."

At any rate, 'Transference' <Gatom> was a lost magic.

"It may be a hero who has reincarnated.......or it could be that a demon from 2,000 years ago reincarnated as human and thus became able to use it.

Both interfere with magical perception, teleportation & telepathic communication by blocking it not negating it, negating magical sight will be the same as blinding the person to which no one ever goes blind.

---

<De Ijeria>​

This is another spell that has been referred to as anti-magic however, just like the two other spells spells listed previously, it's cast method has separate mechanics to it furthermore, it's functions don't even line up with any of the abilities being discussed here. <De Ijeria> involves creating wards of fire, earth, wind, water in different cardinal directions, each amplifying the magic sealing potential of the other. This is something that isn't required to utilize normal anti-magic which has also never been stated to seal magic.

As said above <De Ijeria> has no properties of power null neither does it offer any resistance instead it's functions include;

• Statistics Reduction.
• Statistics Amplification.
• Regeneration/Healing.

It halves the power of demons, amplifies that of humans, regenerates the wounds of allies.

---

FUSION MAGIC​

This one isn't about proving separate applications or mechanisms rather, it's to establish the fact anti-magic isn't the antithesis to magic. For one both are magic spells and come from the same source and fusion magic will prove this as well as disprove any notion of magic negation, cancelation.

Fusion magic as the name implies fuses 2 sources of power to increase their effect be it magic spells, people, magic items etc. One of the things that has been accomplished with this is the fusion of magic and anti-magic.

---

MAGIC RESISTANCE​

Many varied applications of the term "anti-magic" exist however, the story makes it clear in what way or form it pertains to resistance. An example of this is the use of words like "resist", "ward off", "protect". Without mentioning those already used before, below are examples of cases where it pertains to resistance.

1.) Volume 3 Chapter 21
It is brought up in a matter about protecting themselves from a barrier which induces paralysis inducement and statistics reduction

2.)Volume 4 Chapter 40
Here because certain demons are frequently mentioned in the legend of the Demon King of tyranny, they are bound to the service of the being born from that legend and it's potency on them is made stronger. It also mentions how their anti-magic doesn't stand a chance against a legend that powerful.
Demons who aren't as strongly bound to it resist it by having powerful hearts (supernatural willpower). This shows a correlation between anti-magic and resistance through supernatural will.

3.) Web Novel Chapter 347

Spoiler

"I see, so space-time is distorted inside that gate."

Drawing a magic circle, I shoot the Hellfire Eradication Cannon <Jio Graze>.

The jet-black sun suddenly disappears the moment it enters the Blood Gate <Keikkai-mon>.

The next moment, it landed with a thud at the bottom of the stone steps.

Again I walked up the stone steps to the gate and stopped there.

"It's quite a secret," I said, "that you can ignore my anti-magic and make me cross the dimension. In exchange, not even your spear that transcends time and space will be able to reach me from there."

An opponent uses a technique which sacrifices their own life and in exchange, the effectiveness of their ability is greatly improved such that it doesn't bypass, overcome, breakthrough, it ignores the anti-magic.

4.) Web Novel Chapter 348

Spoiler

But to prevent this, the cursed mud covers all the stone steps like a wall.

It completely separated me and the Netherworld King.

-- "Run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run! --

So the words of the curse stain the Aeges head, hard and insistent.

It broke through even Aeges anti-magic and worked a compulsion that stopped him in his tracks.
[...]
The room was filled with mud.

They spread the curse of death all over the area, touching the walls, ceiling, ground, and ruins, and turning everything into cursed mud.

Even my own body would be turned to mud if I did not constantly use my Magic Eye of Destruction and anti-magic.
[...]
I wore the least amount of anti-magic and dared to be swallowed by the mud that attacked me.

I let myself be swept away by the current of the cursed mud, and my body sank to the bottom.

The more you fall, the stronger the curse of the mud becomes, trying to eat away at your body and your roots.

The anti-magic is broken and the mud touches my body.

If I prevent this, I will not be able to get to where I want to go.

"Curse my source!"

I offer my source in place of my body and take the cursed mud within it.

A nauseating pain washes over me, and a curse that makes me crazy sticks to my ears and won't leave.

Still my body sinks and the curse grows stronger.

The pain that Kaihiram had experienced in his death came back to me, multiplied many times over.

I endured the pain and the curse, and waited patiently until I saw before me the dark coffin that contained the source of the curse, Kai Hiram.

This one shows resisting a curse that comes with compound effects through anti-magic and it differentiates between the Eye of Destruction and anti-magic. Should this be power null alone, why identify the two when in terms of nullification, EoD>>>anti-magic?

5.) Web Novel Chapter 409

Spoiler

Draw a magic circle on Sasha and Misha.

My magic eye sees that they are sealed or cursed with a seal that causes their bodily functions to deteriorate.

It is likely that they are desperately resisting it with anti-magic.

They are probably conscious, but they are so focused on breaking the seal that they seems unable to move.

With my magic eye, which was dyed a deep purple, I stared at the order magic that had been cast on the girls and drew multiple magic circles with <Laeluente> "Seal Curse Bind Restoration"

Self explanatory

6.) Web Novel Chapter 449

Spoiler

Lay, who plunged into the Sun of Destruction without putting up any anti-magic, was enveloped by the black sun and the light of final destruction, destroying his sources in the blink of an eye.

The fact that his body barely retains its original form is probably due to the blessing of the Sword of three races.

"blessings" in this case is referring to the same thing here. The character's own anti-magic as well as the blessings of their weapon giving them double protection, essentially "blessings" refer to the anti-magic of the weapon.