Maou Gakuin no Futekigousha: Land of Traces Downgrade

[CloverDragon03]

So I've been made aware of this CRT recently, and I've got some problems with it. Namely, the fact that the Land of Traces is considered a 2-A cosmology. I'll be going through the reasons used to make it a 2-A cosmology and explain my issues with them as I go along. Let's begin.

This is the divine domain of the trace god Rivalschnedd. Traces are records, memories, footprints, the past of all things that exist. The world and its past, from the present dating back to the beginning of time covering a timeline of 700 million years, is fits into, is stored in the land traces. Traces hence fit the criteria of a standard 4 dimensional universal model making them Universe+/Low 2-C

This seems well and good, except for the fact that... nothing in the scans used to claim the individual traces are Low 2-C structures actually say that. The first hyperlink links to an explanation of what traces are (records and memories of all that exist), so that's not really relevant. The second scan, on the other hand, says:

"That's impossible. The entire world can fit into the land of traces. Seven hundred million years have passed from the beginning of time, and this land can hold a hundred times more with ease. There is no trace that could possibly be larger than that."

So, it's the entire Land of Traces that's being referred to here, not individual traces... How exactly is this supposed to prove that traces are Low 2-C structures? In fact, the scan kinda seems to debunk the argument coming from it, as it's saying no trace could hold such an amount ("such an amount" being the world itself plus extra years, which sounds to me like it'd be Low 2-C). Not to mention, timelines are supposed to extend infinitely. If it's a record of a certain moment in time, it's going to stop at that moment in time - thus making the amount it extends to not infinite.

I could be mistaken - this whole thing's a bit confusing, to be honest - but I don't see how individual traces are Low 2-C from this. And then comes this part:

however, the Land of Traces aren't just the traces alone, it's a vessel of infinite size for storing/containing them. A space capable of containing a Universe+ sized model in addition to spanning an infinite distance should be Multiverse+/2-A in size. The Land of Traces is thus a Multiverse+ sized structure.

Being infinite in size and containing a Low 2-C structure doesn't mean anything unless it's infinite in relation to the structure. Then, one could argue that such a structure would be 2-A, because then it could arguably hold an infinite number of such structures. However, traces are not Low 2-C, so this falls apart.

Unless it can be proven that traces are Low 2-C structures, the 2-A rating should be removed. As for what the Land of Traces should be downgraded to, I propose that if individual traces cannot be proven to be Low 2-C structures, the Land of Traces should be downgraded to Low 2-C for being an infinite-sized space-time able to contain all of human history within it with ease. Anything with a 2-A rating should also be downgraded to Low 2-C as a result.

(Btw, if the argument is that traces are 3-D snapshots and an infinite number of them would be Low 2-C, thus making the Land of Traces 2-A, that's not the case. It needs to be uncountably infinite, not just vaguely infinite. It'd be High 3-A without further context)

That's about it from me. I've yapped long enough, so now feel free to discuss!

(Also, for my sanity, I'll only be keeping track of evaluating staff votes)

Agree: Planck69, Deagonx, LephyrTheRevanchist, CrimsonStarFallen, Theglassman12
Disagree:
Neutral: DarkDragonMedeus

 

[Deagonx]

This seems sounds, I agree.

 

[RenderGK]

It makes sense, I'll wait to see more.

 

[Georredannea15]

So what you're really saying is that the Land of Traces is a timeline in its entirety and it's a Low 2-C in its entirety, right?

Is that general idea, right?

 

[CloverDragon03]

So what you're really saying is that the Land of Traces is a timeline in its entirety and it's a Low 2-C in its entirety, right?

Is that general idea, right?

Yes. The Land of Traces is Low 2-C, not the individual traces

 

[Georredannea15]

Yes. The Land of Traces is Low 2-C, not the individual traces

Alr, then it makes sense. At least that's what I think when I look the scans with the arguments... But let's see.

 

[Dog3352]

Well, commenting on some issues.

Yhe "timeline does not continue infinitely" has already been discussed in the CRT itself, and an explanation has already been given about it.

"It's been brought up how the timeline needs to go on infinitely to obtain Low 2-C so concerns over this have been brought up however, the timeline does continue infinitely. The way the order works is the flow and storage of traces (past) of the world from the present backwards to the beginning of time. It doesn't end at 700 million years as were another 700 million years to pass, it will be in the LoT. Basically it depends at what point in time the present has reached."

About the "tracks not being able to contain 700 million years or more" is simply a misinterpretation, here is the context.

With "There is no trace that could possibly be largar than that", he was basically talking about the spell, since the spell that was being used by Anos at the moment was bigger and more destructive than anything contained in the Traces and in the Lend of Traces ("bigger" even than the World itself), , that's why Anos says "You mean in the past, right?", because there is no trace of something as "big" as the spell used by Anos, being even capable of destroying the world.

Basically: The statement is about the spell, which is "bigger" than the World itself, something that no trace can contain, and is incapable of containing (due to being larger than the World itself).

 

[CloverDragon03]

Being vaguely larger than a Low 2-C structure is still Low 2-C, so the same conclusion is reached: that no trace can actually hold something of that size

 

[Dog3352]

Being vaguely larger than a Low 2-C structure is still Low 2-C, so the same conclusion is reached: that no trace can actually hold something of that size

This is a statement that has never been said, it is only said that a trace is not capable of containing something as large as the spell used by Anos (which is natural, since it is larger than even the Land of Traces itself).

In addition to the but, it is exactly because of this that the previous text that I sent here was stated.

"It's been brought up how the timeline needs to go on infinitely to obtain Low 2-C so concerns over this have been brought up however, the timeline does continue infinitely. The way the order works is the flow and storage of traces (past) of the world from the present backwards to the beginning of time. It doesn't end at 700 million years as were another 700 million years to pass, it will be in the LoT. Basically it depends at what point in time the present has reached."

If the only problem is "it not being able to contain such a thing", then that is a question that has already been raised in the previous thread and has already been answerew, so as far as I know, the traces remain low 2-C.

 

[Hasty12345]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t there some kind of rule about making downgrades for recently accepted CRTs?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I think I understand what the original logic is. One of the characters mentions how "all Traces" go back up to the beginning of time. Meaning, each Trace contains the "memory"/"record" of everything up to a point in time, spanning over 700 million years of History.

This would seem to satisfy the requirement for Low 2-C of having all timeline snapshots, since every moment is recorded on a Trace, that then goes back to the beginning of time. Essentially, even if the first Traces are insignificant snapshots, those of the present would be of significant size. With the Land of Traces capable of holding infinite Traces, then it would be 2-A.

I think the problem is with the assumption that all Traces contain the entire history of the world until that specific point in which the Trace appears. Specially since the characters mention how, by traveling through the realm, they are going back in time, and particularly with Rivalschnedd explaining how each Trace is recorded in his body, suggesting each Trace is its own singular point, disqualifying it from Low 2-C (it wouldn't be tierable under our current standards for Space-Times, though depending on a future thread this could change).

So for now, given my understanding and current information available, I have to agree with OP that only the entire Land of Traces qualifies as a Low 2-C space. Though I am open if there's more context missing to suggest each Trace its an entire timeline onto itself.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t there some kind of rule about making downgrades for recently accepted CRTs?

There is not. The rule you are mistaking is this one:

When creating content revisions, it is essential to ensure that the topic has not been addressed previously. Rejected content revisions cannot be resubmitted within a short period of time (typically defined as within 3 to 4 months), except in cases where a staff member has a good reason to do so (e.g. important unconsidered information, violation of site standards, or flaws in a calculation). This only applies to threads that have received extensive debate or have been rejected due to a clear conflict with the wiki's rules or standards. If a thread passes or is rejected without significant opposition, then opposition should not be restricted from making a point.

It's for rejected threads, not accepted ones.

 

[Hasty12345]

There is not. The rule you are mistaking is this one:


It's for rejected threads, not accepted ones.

Ahh cool, that makes sense. Thank you.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t there some kind of rule about making downgrades for recently accepted CRTs?

You gotta wait like 2 days, and it's been more than that since the CRT was applied

 

[CloverDragon03]

This is a statement that has never been said, it is only said that a trace is not capable of containing something as large as the spell used by Anos (which is natural, since it is larger than even the Land of Traces itself).

In addition to the but, it is exactly because of this that the previous text that I sent here was stated.



If the only problem is "it not being able to contain such a thing", then that is a question that has already been raised in the previous thread and has already been answerew, so as far as I know, the traces remain low 2-C.

That's not the only problem either. Lephyr sorta summed it up perfectly, but each trace basically seems like a certain point in time - which disqualifies it from Low 2-C. The scans used to justify traces being Low 2-C legitimately doesn't even say what's being claimed.

And not to mention, it's completely inconsistent that the thing Anos used to nuke the Land of Traces was something that was "going to eventually destroy the universe." You're telling me that this thing that destroyed a supposedly 2-A construct needs additional time to destroy a Low 2-C one? That makes no sense

 

[Georredannea15]

That's not the only problem either. Lephyr sorta summed it up perfectly, but each trace basically seems like a certain point in time - which disqualifies it from Low 2-C. The scans used to justify traces being Low 2-C legitimately doesn't even say what's being claimed.

In short, what is considered Low 2-C is actually a 3-D snapshot on a standard 4-D timeline, which bombs these directly from Low 2-C. I guess that's what your and Lepyh's mean. (Please correct me if I am wrong)

 

[CloverDragon03]

In short, what is considered Low 2-C is actually a 3-D snapshot on a standard 4-D timeline, which bombs these directly from Low 2-C. I guress that's what your and Lepyh's mean. (Please correct me if I am wrong)

That's pretty much it, yeah. The individual snapshots are treated as Low 2-C structures despite that not being the case

 

[Dog3352]

That's not the only problem either. Lephyr sorta summed it up perfectly, but each trace basically seems like a certain point in time - which disqualifies it from Low 2-C. The scans used to justify traces being Low 2-C legitimately doesn't even say what's being claimed.

And not to mention, it's completely inconsistent that the thing Anos used to nuke the Land of Traces was something that was "going to eventually destroy the universe." You're telling me that this thing that destroyed a supposedly 2-A construct needs additional time to destroy a Low 2-C one? That makes no sense

The spell works in stages, Anos takes 7 steps, with each step he takes, his power increases, and his step becomes more destructive than the previous one.

Anos needed 6 steps to destroy all the traces, although the reason for this is that in the fifth step, the World of Traces was creating traces of the destruction that Anos was causing at that exact moment, the seventh step would be the one that would destroy the World 1000 times, so the traces were destroyed, but the World was not destroyed, Anos did not take the seventh step (which would destroy the World 1000 times).

 

[Georredannea15]

That's pretty much it, yeah. The individual snapshots are treated as Low 2-C structures despite that not being the case

I see.

And not to mention, it's completely inconsistent that the thing Anos used to nuke the Land of Traces was something that was "going to eventually destroy the universe." You're telling me that this thing that destroyed a supposedly 2-A construct needs additional time to destroy a Low 2-C one? That makes no sense

I think when we take that into consideration along with the above thing, it seems like this is really should being nuke. It fits better in my mind now, but let's see other comments.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The spell works in stages, Anos takes 7 steps, with each step he takes, his power increases, and his step becomes more destructive than the previous one.

Anos needed 6 steps to destroy all the traces, although the reason for this is that in the fifth step, the World of Traces was creating traces of the destruction that Anos was causing at that exact moment, the seventh step would be the one that would destroy the World 1000 times, so the traces were destroyed, but the World was not destroyed, Anos did not take the seventh step (which would destroy the World 1000 times).

I don't think that adequately explains why something that can destroy an allegedly 2-A structure is hyped up as "being able to destroy the universe." It's like rating a character as Tier 5 despite statements only indicating country level destruction, for example

 

[Dog3352]

I even have something that could try to maintain 2-A (although it would be very different from what was proposed in the CRT), but honestly, I prefer to wait for some backer to come here, especially when I would need to confirm some things with them.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Since you accepted the previous upgrade, thoughts on this?

@Dereck03, @Catzlaflame, @DarkDragonMedeus, @Elizhaa, @ActuallySpaceMan42

 

[Dog3352]

I don't think that adequately explains why something that can destroy an allegedly 2-A structure is hyped up as "being able to destroy the universe." It's like rating a character as Tier 5 despite statements only indicating country level destruction, for example

Honestly, I didn't really understand the point, Anos just didn't destroy the universe because he didn't want to, besides, "universe" is just a way of calling cosmology.

Anos didn't destroy the "universe"/cosmology (together with Land of Traces) because the 6 steps he took weren't capable of that, the only thing capable of such a thing is his seventh step (and another spell).

 

[CloverDragon03]

Honestly, I didn't really understand the point, Anos just didn't destroy the universe because he didn't want to, besides, "universe" is just a way of calling cosmology.

Anos didn't destroy the "universe"/cosmology (together with Land of Traces) because the 6 steps he took weren't capable of that, the only thing capable of such a thing is his seventh step (and another spell).

The seventh step is hyped up as something that can destroy the universe... yet it's apparently 2-A now? That doesn't make sense to me

 

[Dog3352]

The seventh step is hyped up as something that can destroy the universe... yet it's apparently 2-A now? That doesn't make sense to me

The sixth step is already considered 2-A,
since it is capable of destroying the Land of Traces (which is a 2-A structure), but the seventh step is capable of destroying the Land of Traces and the Universe/Militia World 1000 times.

Honestly, I still don't understand why you are confused, if something is capable of destroying a 2-A structure, then that something will naturally be 2-A. Or do you not know what I'm referring to when I say "universe"?

The Land of Traces is a dimension that is contained within the universe/Milicia World, something capable of destroying the Universe/Milicia World, it will be even "larger" than the Land of Traces, and the Universe/Milicia World is capable of containing the Land of Traces.

Edit: In fact, I'm going to stay neutral for now on this CRT, as I'm going to wait and see if any supporters from the back say something.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I have no reason to believe that "universe" means anything more than a Low 2-C structure without further substantiation, so a weaker step yielding stronger results is entirely inconsistent

 

[Dog3352]

I have no reason to believe that "universe" means anything more than a Low 2-C structure without further substantiation, so a weaker step yielding stronger results is entirely inconsistent

Dude, the universe is just a way of talking about cosmology itself, I'm sure I explained this a few comments ago, besides, the Land of Traces itself already scales to 2-A by then, so something that is capable of destroying Even the very structure that encompasses the World of Tracez will naturally be larger, I really have no idea what you're not understanding.

The Universe is bigger than a 2-A structure, so it would scale to 2-A or even above, I REALLY have no idea what you don't understand, as it is extremely simple logic.

In addition to the but, numerous universes scale above Low 2-C, such as the universes of DBS and Tensura.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Dude, the universe is just a way of talking about cosmology itself

Based on what?

the Land of Traces itself already scales to 2-A by then, so something that is capable of destroying Even the very structure that encompasses the World of Traits will naturally be larger, I really have no idea what you're not understanding.

Except that I'm contesting the Land of Traces being 2-A to begin with. Even putting scaling ramifications aside, the evidence presented just does not suggest this at all. Traces are not Low 2-C structures, they're 3-D snapshots of a standard 4-D timeline

In addition to the but, numerous universes scale above Low 2-C, such as the universes of DBS and Tensura.

Whataboutism isn't an argument, DBS and Tensura have their own mechanics

 

[Dog3352]

Based on what?

Huh? You know this is just language, right? Like when people talk about an anime, like "the Demon Slayer universe" or "The Tensura universe", and not about literally a universe, in MGK, the universes are actually called Bubble World.

Except that I'm contesting the Land of Traces being 2-A to begin with. Even putting scaling ramifications aside, the evidence presented just does not suggest this at all. Traces are not Low 2-C structures, they're 3-D snapshots of a standard 4-D timeline

Not understanding what you mean, I'm saying that cosmology is greater than 2-A because it contains a 2-A structure, and you continue saying that you don't understand, you can't assume that the universe that encompasses a structure is smaller than the structure.

Whataboutism isn't an argument, DBS and Tensura have their own mechanics

Not exactly taking away the point that the universe is bigger than Low 2-C, the logic of DBS is literally the same as that of MGK, an MGK Universe is larger than Low 2-C because it encompasses one or more Low 2-C structures

Good, the entirety of cosmology still scales above Low 2-C (2-C), since the Nafta World and Land of Traces would be Low 2-C even with this Downgrade, and the universe encompasses both structures.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Huh? You know this is just language, right? Like when people talk about an anime, like "the Demon Slayer universe" or "The Tensura universe", and not about literally a universe, in MGK, the universes are actually called Bubble World.

You're talking about fan-used terminology as opposed to something in-verse, so I'd hardly call this equivalent

Not understanding what you mean, I'm saying that cosmology is greater than 2-A because it contains a 2-A structure, and you continue saying that you don't understand, you can't assume that the universe that encompasses a structure is smaller than the structure.

It can't be greater than 2-A if there's no 2-A structure to begin with - since the Land of Traces doesn't even fall into that. Traces aren't Low 2-C structures. Again, they're 3-D snapshots in the standard 4-D timeline, making them completely unable to be given a tier. And that makes the Land of Traces go from 2-A to Low 2-C

Not exactly taking away the point that the universe is bigger than Low 2-C, the logic of DBS is literally the same as that of MGK, an MGK Universe is larger than Low 2-C because it encompasses one or more Low 2-C structures

Good, the entirety of cosmology still scales above Low 2-C (2-C), since the Nafta World and Land of Traces would be Low 2-C even with this Downgrade, and the universe encompasses both structures.

Considering that before the 2-A upgrade, Anos and Venuzdonoa were Low 2-C rather than 2-C, I'm inclined to believe this is not an agreed on thing and would require its own thread

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Neutral for now, waiting on someone like Dereck.

 

[Robo432343]

"There is no single future is decided. With the love of Nafta, there are infinite possibilities, and people hold hope in their hearts and seize a better future. Dragon Knights, don't be afraid"
Another translation:
``Nothing about the future is set in stone. With the love of Nafta, infinite possibilities expand there, and people hold hope in their hearts as they seize a better future. Dragon Knights, fear! It is not"

agree with 2-A....

 

[CloverDragon03]

"There is no single future is decided. With the love of Nafta, there are infinite possibilities, and people hold hope in their hearts and seize a better future. Dragon Knights, don't be afraid"

agree with 2-A....

Was it ever suggested that Anos was going to destroy all these infinite possibilities? With Venuzdonoa or otherwise, because then it'd be like "yeah sure there's 2-A in some form but it scales to no one"

 

[Robo432343]

Was it ever suggested that Anos was going to destroy all these infinite possibilities? With Venuzdonoa or otherwise, because then it'd be like "yeah sure there's 2-A in some form but it scales to no one"

(Venuzdonoa is the destroyer of anything in all of existence. Be it providence, fate, or a miracle, all bows down before it and disappears. No matter how sturdy, how eternal, or how infinite something is, Venuzdonoa can destroy it - even Reason itself[

 

[Dog3352]

You're talking about fan-used terminology as opposed to something in-verse, so I'd hardly call this equivalent

I literally said that I was using the word universe as a term for cosmology.

It can't be greater than 2-A if there's no 2-A structure to begin with - since the Land of Traces doesn't even fall into that. Traces aren't Low 2-C structures. Again, they're 3-D snapshots in the standard 4-D timeline, making them completely unable to be given a tier. And that makes the Land of Traces go from 2-A to Low 2-C

So really, what you were commenting didn't make any sense at all, since I was saying that the universe/cosmology is 2-A due to it encompassing a 2-A structure, and you said you didn't understand, you were just saying that the reason The reason why it wasn't like that is because Land of Traces "isn't" 2-A.

Considering that before the 2-A upgrade, Anos and Venuzdonoa were Low 2-C rather than 2-C, I'm inclined to believe this is not an agreed on thing and would require its own thread

They all scale to the entirety of the cosmology itself, so they must be 2-C, they weren't 2-C because Trace Land and Nafta World hadn't yet been introduced into the wiki, now that they were, they are part of the cosmology, and Anos, Venuzdonoa and MEoCD scale to entire cosmology, which is naturally 2-C.

 

[Dog3352]

Was it ever suggested that Anos was going to destroy all these infinite possibilities? With Venuzdonoa or otherwise, because then it'd be like "yeah sure there's 2-A in some form but it scales to no one"

It is literally said that Anos needs to destroy all possibilities to win Nafta, which he did, in addition to the but, he did without Venuzdonoa, and Venzudonoa scales to the entire cosmology.

This also goes for MEoCD, World-destroying spells, or anything that scales to the Nafta World or the entire universe.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Okay so as it turns out, the "infinite possibilities" thing was already rejected in this thread before

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Was it ever suggested that Anos was going to destroy all these infinite possibilities? With Venuzdonoa or otherwise, because then it'd be like "yeah sure there's 2-A in some form but it scales to no one"

The feat for Anos destroying the Future Crystal World is already on the profile, via Egil Grone Angdroa. Venuzdonoa scales too by virtue of how it works.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The feat for Anos destroying the Future Crystal World is already on the profile, via Egil Grone Angdroa. And of course there is Venuzdonoa too.

Okay so as it turns out, the "infinite possibilities" thing was already rejected in this thread before

 

[Dog3352]

There is no longer this 2-A, since the translation doesn't get there, but Nafta World is still 2-A.