Tempestdragon6
He/Him- 848
- 233
Merry Christmas to everyone
Ok I'll go straight to the point, a while ago i looked through several profiles of mgk and i notice a lot of abilities are either out of context or bluntly just no justification but I'm gonna focus with three abilities first
first is
Abstract Existence (Type 1; Information, Stories, Emotions, Beliefs; Spirits are strange creatures, their existence is said to be akin to magic itself. Their existence is said to come from the hearts of others. Legends, folklore, rumors, fears, beliefs, aspirations, Spirits are the realization and embodiment of these)
Mind you, the wording itself says "embodiment and realization", and so does the scan, so what's the Type 1 for?
Additionally, from other Volumes:
“Type 2: Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it.„
So, yes, the Type 1 should be changed to Type 2 unless there's something hinting they are not merely embodiments of them, but those abstract things themselves.
It also needs to be clarified which type of Information is being talked about here. As for me, I only see Type 1 Information here.
next is immortality and regeneration Immortality & Regeneration (Types 1, 3, 4 & 8 up-to High-godly; A spirit can't die as long as their rumors persist. Even if killed they shall continue to rise again as long as the rumors which form them remain. Spirits will continue to resurrect even if their source is destroyed as long as their lore remains)
Uh, so, where's the "Eternal Life" part that's supposed to be the qualifier for Type 1? This is not some bullshit where you remain as long as something else remains, at least not necessarily, and is just Type 8. Unless the supporters can provide solid proof that said "Rumors and Lore" continue to exist eternally, and iff that is always the case, the Type 1 needs to say bye-bye.
And, of course, after looking into what I said above in the Novel, I found a few related things, that is, the Spirit part of Half Spirits is indeed dependent on Rumors, Desires, and Hope, and if those are extinguished from the minds of others, the Spirit part of the Half-Spirit dies as well. The same should apply to Spirits, except that there's no "Half" part, the Spirit Physiology is their entire existence, and thus even more dependent on those rumors:
Additionally, I can see Type 8 even without scans (Note on that: ADD SCANS), the wording itself says "Even if they're killed, they shall continue to rise again", yeah, that's Type 4, sure, but where is the Type 3?
Abstract Existence (Type 1; Law, Fate, Concept Type 1; Gods are order itself and nothing more, they are the absolute existence for all who live in the world, they are the laws and concepts of the world and both life and death are governed by the order)
So.... what exactly here makes them Type 1 Concepts? They govern the world, sure thing, but that's Type 2
, it doesn't show their independence from it.
To quote another scan itself,"If thou destroys me, the World shall be unable to maintain its current form, and it will slowly fall apart. , yeah... this doesn't sound like Type 1 at all. Without a Type 1 Concept, the objects should never exist to begin with, past, present and future (since by default, Type 1 Concepts encompass all of Time). The fact that the world would "slowly" fall apart means it won't instantly cease to exist, which makes it a problem for Order to be Type 1 to begin with.
For instance, if it was Type 1, the World would have fallen apart instantly, ceasing to exist from all of Time. Obviously, that didn't happen nor was stated here. So this has to say Bye-bye too.
Immortality & Regeneration (Types 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 & 8 up-to High-Godly; Gods are eternal and immortal beings, can survive having their hearts destroyed and being decapitated. Can easily resurrect and regenerate their bodies after being destroyed. Gods are nothing, they're immortal and thus not living, existing solely as the logic of the world. Gods are capable of regenerating from source (concept) destruction)
Gods are not eternal, stop the wank. The description links two contradictory scans; However, given that the "They are not eternal" is from a Volume that came after the other ones, it's fine to take that scan as the more solid one, leading to Gods losing their Immortality Type 1 via the following lines:
Gods aren't eternal. They disappeared and were newly reborn according to Order, and the one who created them was this god, the Heavenly Father.
The fact that this scan, which was supposed to likely be for giving them Type 4, outright contradicted their Type 1, yet the scan seems to intentionally not have highlighted the "Gods aren't eternal" part, and only highlighted the thing that the characters could gain something from....
Of course, this is not the only reason for the removal, as at another instance, it's also outright stated that they don't even have an Infinite life span, just a really long one:
So yeah, their Type 1 goes bye-bye and Longevity enters the chat.
Moving on, what exactly makes them have High Godly level of Regeneration (or Resurrection) here, exactly? Stop hiding the factual scan statements behind those vague descriptions; Gods cannot generate from complete source destruction, the scan itself that's linked to that part says otherwise;
(If it weren't for Venuzdonoa, you would have easily regenerated your source. Choosing to leech off Eldmed's body and source was your mistake. Within him, you can survive with only ten percent of your source. The remaining ten percent will prevent the collapse of order."
I had destroyed his source in a way that allowed only ten percent or so to be recovered through source regeneration magic. This meant that Agronemt couldn't restore his source to its perfect state.)
So yes, they can survive with only ten percent of their source, but nothing says they can 'survive and regenerate from complete source destruction'.
And no, the "Source Regenerating Magic" would not do the trick here since its clear that said Magic is Agronemt (unless proven otherwise), which cannot even be used if the source has disappeared/been completely destroyed.
The spell normally couldn't be used by one whose source had disappeared, but I'd prepared beforehand by using Rivide to send Agronemt into the future.
Source
Additionally, to begin with, Agronemt is an Origin Magic, one restricted to usage by only Demon Royalty, Gods shouldn't be able to use it since they aren't Demon Royalty, UNLESS PROVEN OTHERWISE by the supporters.
Basically, the summary of the scans for their regeneration is:
If the Source of a God is completely destroyed, it will result in the World's order collapsing. Therefore, Anos only destroyed part of the source, just so much that said God (and Order) would be kept alive (and prevented from collapsing) and allow them to slowly recover their source, proving they cannot regenerate if their source is completely destroyed. Regeneration from Partial Destruction is, however, still possible.
The above summary about only a part of the source being destroyed, and the fact that they cannot regenerate from complete source destruction, is fully backed by by the same scan as the one that was used to grant it regeneration, EXCEPT, that this time, we'll actually get to see the full contents of the scan rather then a small part of it cropped for manipulating the rating:
source
If Gods could truly regenerate from Complete Source Destruction (Which itself is baffling even as a mere thought since the World cannot exist without Order (Gods), then the above (Self Destruction) wouldn't even be a problem for them either, yet it is forbidden; Why? Because the World and Order will be destroyed.
This thus negates all claimed instances of "Sources were completely destroyed", which should now be put as "It is flowery language, it is not completely destroyed", unless of course, it's proven otherwise completely, such as via the World being destroyed as a by-product.
So before someone starts yapping "Prove your summary", know and read (and don't manipulate) the very novel you yourself support first, rather then having others to read it for you. It's clear that they cannot regenerate from complete source destruction, because Anos only made it sure to break their source "just enough to allow for a slow recovery", the JUST ENOUGH by itself indicates that the source was not completely destroyed.
Additionally, stepping aside from the context of the scans being used on the page, let's look at other supporting proof that resurrecting from Complete Source Destruction is impossible (unless extremely specific conditions are met).
Destruction of Source means Death, true death, to be precise; the "Only Exception" to that fact is Hero Kanon, and even he was only an exception due to having seven sources instead of one, which allowed him to restore his other six Sources if even one of them is still left. In other words, even Kanon cannot come back from complete destruction of his source (all of them):
Hero Kanon, his holy sword in hand, was running towards them, closing a distance of approximately ten kilometers.
One cannot live if their source is destroyed. Not even Ingall would have an effect. The only exception to this was Hero Kanon. He was capable of resurrecting over and over again. The reason was simple—unlike normal people with a single source, Kanon possessed seven. As long as one of those sources remained, the remaining six could be restored.
So yeah, the HGR will say bye-bye and instead, Overtime (Because it is a "Slow Recovery") Mid Godly Regeneration (MGK MGR) should be welcomed with open hands. Because as per standards, not regenerating from complete destruction of a fundamental aspect and only partial destruction is nowhere even near High Godly levels of Regeneration.
Additionally, nothing here suggests Type 5, so unless provided evidence, it should be removed completely as well.
Limited Invulnerability (For their source; The source (concept) of a god is indestructible even against weapons made specially to permanently kill them like Shin Reglia's <Gneodoros>)
Even if the Statistics Amplification one was not a joke (though I doubt it), this must be, because while the description says "Their source is indestructible even against weapons made specially to permanently kill them like Shin's sword", the scan proves completely otherwise;
The scans and description are so contradictory this time to each other that I can't even think of it as anything other than a joke....
And it gets even funnier if one sees the full scan... because the sheer amount of phrases that contradict the description is insane:
So here you go... contradictory, right?
Oh, and before someone starts yapping "But didn't Nosgalia revive after his source was cut?", yes, he did, but when did that mean his source was "Completely erased"? Mind you, cutting an apple in half doesn't mean the Apple is erased, it just means its turned into smaller divided parts.
This is backed up by the fact the scan also says the dividing would continue "without end, until his source cannot be divided further", in other words, an Infinitesimal small part of the original, yet still existing and
being there, not Complete destruction.
Agree: AstralTrinity, Robo, TempestDragon, EikichiSensei
Disagree: Ruler_Star_Kuma, Satoshi, Dog, Dereck, Tatsumi, Elde, Rozan, Wesker, (I think) Vietthai, DarkDragonMedeus, BreezeHM, Eseseso (switched to disagreeing with the op after reading the rebuttal from Dereck), Reiner04
Neutral:
Note state what are you disagreeing and provide an argument for it.
That's it Merry Christmas and Advance Happy New Year
Ok I'll go straight to the point, a while ago i looked through several profiles of mgk and i notice a lot of abilities are either out of context or bluntly just no justification but I'm gonna focus with three abilities first
first is
Abstract Existence (Type 1; Information, Stories, Emotions, Beliefs; Spirits are strange creatures, their existence is said to be akin to magic itself. Their existence is said to come from the hearts of others. Legends, folklore, rumors, fears, beliefs, aspirations, Spirits are the realization and embodiment of these)
Mind you, the wording itself says "embodiment and realization", and so does the scan, so what's the Type 1 for?
Additionally, from other Volumes:
“Type 2: Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it.„
So, yes, the Type 1 should be changed to Type 2 unless there's something hinting they are not merely embodiments of them, but those abstract things themselves.
It also needs to be clarified which type of Information is being talked about here. As for me, I only see Type 1 Information here.
next is immortality and regeneration Immortality & Regeneration (Types 1, 3, 4 & 8 up-to High-godly; A spirit can't die as long as their rumors persist. Even if killed they shall continue to rise again as long as the rumors which form them remain. Spirits will continue to resurrect even if their source is destroyed as long as their lore remains)
Uh, so, where's the "Eternal Life" part that's supposed to be the qualifier for Type 1? This is not some bullshit where you remain as long as something else remains, at least not necessarily, and is just Type 8. Unless the supporters can provide solid proof that said "Rumors and Lore" continue to exist eternally, and iff that is always the case, the Type 1 needs to say bye-bye.
And, of course, after looking into what I said above in the Novel, I found a few related things, that is, the Spirit part of Half Spirits is indeed dependent on Rumors, Desires, and Hope, and if those are extinguished from the minds of others, the Spirit part of the Half-Spirit dies as well. The same should apply to Spirits, except that there's no "Half" part, the Spirit Physiology is their entire existence, and thus even more dependent on those rumors:
Additionally, I can see Type 8 even without scans (Note on that: ADD SCANS), the wording itself says "Even if they're killed, they shall continue to rise again", yeah, that's Type 4, sure, but where is the Type 3?
Abstract Existence (Type 1; Law, Fate, Concept Type 1; Gods are order itself and nothing more, they are the absolute existence for all who live in the world, they are the laws and concepts of the world and both life and death are governed by the order)
So.... what exactly here makes them Type 1 Concepts? They govern the world, sure thing, but that's Type 2
, it doesn't show their independence from it.
To quote another scan itself,"If thou destroys me, the World shall be unable to maintain its current form, and it will slowly fall apart. , yeah... this doesn't sound like Type 1 at all. Without a Type 1 Concept, the objects should never exist to begin with, past, present and future (since by default, Type 1 Concepts encompass all of Time). The fact that the world would "slowly" fall apart means it won't instantly cease to exist, which makes it a problem for Order to be Type 1 to begin with.
For instance, if it was Type 1, the World would have fallen apart instantly, ceasing to exist from all of Time. Obviously, that didn't happen nor was stated here. So this has to say Bye-bye too.
Immortality & Regeneration (Types 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 & 8 up-to High-Godly; Gods are eternal and immortal beings, can survive having their hearts destroyed and being decapitated. Can easily resurrect and regenerate their bodies after being destroyed. Gods are nothing, they're immortal and thus not living, existing solely as the logic of the world. Gods are capable of regenerating from source (concept) destruction)
Gods are not eternal, stop the wank. The description links two contradictory scans; However, given that the "They are not eternal" is from a Volume that came after the other ones, it's fine to take that scan as the more solid one, leading to Gods losing their Immortality Type 1 via the following lines:
Gods aren't eternal. They disappeared and were newly reborn according to Order, and the one who created them was this god, the Heavenly Father.
The fact that this scan, which was supposed to likely be for giving them Type 4, outright contradicted their Type 1, yet the scan seems to intentionally not have highlighted the "Gods aren't eternal" part, and only highlighted the thing that the characters could gain something from....
Of course, this is not the only reason for the removal, as at another instance, it's also outright stated that they don't even have an Infinite life span, just a really long one:
So yeah, their Type 1 goes bye-bye and Longevity enters the chat.
Moving on, what exactly makes them have High Godly level of Regeneration (or Resurrection) here, exactly? Stop hiding the factual scan statements behind those vague descriptions; Gods cannot generate from complete source destruction, the scan itself that's linked to that part says otherwise;
(If it weren't for Venuzdonoa, you would have easily regenerated your source. Choosing to leech off Eldmed's body and source was your mistake. Within him, you can survive with only ten percent of your source. The remaining ten percent will prevent the collapse of order."
I had destroyed his source in a way that allowed only ten percent or so to be recovered through source regeneration magic. This meant that Agronemt couldn't restore his source to its perfect state.)
So yes, they can survive with only ten percent of their source, but nothing says they can 'survive and regenerate from complete source destruction'.
And no, the "Source Regenerating Magic" would not do the trick here since its clear that said Magic is Agronemt (unless proven otherwise), which cannot even be used if the source has disappeared/been completely destroyed.
The spell normally couldn't be used by one whose source had disappeared, but I'd prepared beforehand by using Rivide to send Agronemt into the future.
Source
Additionally, to begin with, Agronemt is an Origin Magic, one restricted to usage by only Demon Royalty, Gods shouldn't be able to use it since they aren't Demon Royalty, UNLESS PROVEN OTHERWISE by the supporters.
Basically, the summary of the scans for their regeneration is:
If the Source of a God is completely destroyed, it will result in the World's order collapsing. Therefore, Anos only destroyed part of the source, just so much that said God (and Order) would be kept alive (and prevented from collapsing) and allow them to slowly recover their source, proving they cannot regenerate if their source is completely destroyed. Regeneration from Partial Destruction is, however, still possible.
The above summary about only a part of the source being destroyed, and the fact that they cannot regenerate from complete source destruction, is fully backed by by the same scan as the one that was used to grant it regeneration, EXCEPT, that this time, we'll actually get to see the full contents of the scan rather then a small part of it cropped for manipulating the rating:
source
If Gods could truly regenerate from Complete Source Destruction (Which itself is baffling even as a mere thought since the World cannot exist without Order (Gods), then the above (Self Destruction) wouldn't even be a problem for them either, yet it is forbidden; Why? Because the World and Order will be destroyed.
This thus negates all claimed instances of "Sources were completely destroyed", which should now be put as "It is flowery language, it is not completely destroyed", unless of course, it's proven otherwise completely, such as via the World being destroyed as a by-product.
So before someone starts yapping "Prove your summary", know and read (and don't manipulate) the very novel you yourself support first, rather then having others to read it for you. It's clear that they cannot regenerate from complete source destruction, because Anos only made it sure to break their source "just enough to allow for a slow recovery", the JUST ENOUGH by itself indicates that the source was not completely destroyed.
Additionally, stepping aside from the context of the scans being used on the page, let's look at other supporting proof that resurrecting from Complete Source Destruction is impossible (unless extremely specific conditions are met).
Destruction of Source means Death, true death, to be precise; the "Only Exception" to that fact is Hero Kanon, and even he was only an exception due to having seven sources instead of one, which allowed him to restore his other six Sources if even one of them is still left. In other words, even Kanon cannot come back from complete destruction of his source (all of them):
Hero Kanon, his holy sword in hand, was running towards them, closing a distance of approximately ten kilometers.
One cannot live if their source is destroyed. Not even Ingall would have an effect. The only exception to this was Hero Kanon. He was capable of resurrecting over and over again. The reason was simple—unlike normal people with a single source, Kanon possessed seven. As long as one of those sources remained, the remaining six could be restored.
So yeah, the HGR will say bye-bye and instead, Overtime (Because it is a "Slow Recovery") Mid Godly Regeneration (MGK MGR) should be welcomed with open hands. Because as per standards, not regenerating from complete destruction of a fundamental aspect and only partial destruction is nowhere even near High Godly levels of Regeneration.
Additionally, nothing here suggests Type 5, so unless provided evidence, it should be removed completely as well.
Limited Invulnerability (For their source; The source (concept) of a god is indestructible even against weapons made specially to permanently kill them like Shin Reglia's <Gneodoros>)
Even if the Statistics Amplification one was not a joke (though I doubt it), this must be, because while the description says "Their source is indestructible even against weapons made specially to permanently kill them like Shin's sword", the scan proves completely otherwise;
The scans and description are so contradictory this time to each other that I can't even think of it as anything other than a joke....
And it gets even funnier if one sees the full scan... because the sheer amount of phrases that contradict the description is insane:
So here you go... contradictory, right?
Oh, and before someone starts yapping "But didn't Nosgalia revive after his source was cut?", yes, he did, but when did that mean his source was "Completely erased"? Mind you, cutting an apple in half doesn't mean the Apple is erased, it just means its turned into smaller divided parts.
This is backed up by the fact the scan also says the dividing would continue "without end, until his source cannot be divided further", in other words, an Infinitesimal small part of the original, yet still existing and
being there, not Complete destruction.
Agree: AstralTrinity, Robo, TempestDragon, EikichiSensei
Disagree: Ruler_Star_Kuma, Satoshi, Dog, Dereck, Tatsumi, Elde, Rozan, Wesker, (I think) Vietthai, DarkDragonMedeus, BreezeHM, Eseseso (switched to disagreeing with the op after reading the rebuttal from Dereck), Reiner04
Neutral:
Note state what are you disagreeing and provide an argument for it.
That's it Merry Christmas and Advance Happy New Year
Last edited:
. (Imma delete my comments in a little since they are not related to the thread.)
