Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,447
Kill me.
Last thread was extremely derailed for a number of reasons. That, combined with a more thorough analysis of Anos' profile, has led me to make a new thread with greater detail. If anyone attempts to derail this with talks of spite or bias, I won't hesitate to get staff involved. This doesn't need to be a 5-page disaster, so let's not make it one.
Concept Manipulation (Type 1)
Anos has this from destroying sources. This is a problem, because sources were never accepted as being type 1 concepts. In fact, this was explicitly rejected twice before, and a third thread reached no conclusion. Furthermore, the exact line of logic used to claim sources are type 1 (that they govern order) was clearly rejected here. To be blunt, the fact that type 1 CM exists on the profiles at all is a very underhanded attempt at an upgrade, as it is using rejected logic and using the guise of a "rework" to bypass staff evaluation. Sources should go back down to type 3 concepts, as was discussed and accepted here. Also, please do not bring up DT's comments, as those were made in a vacuum and he has never evaluated MG's CM.
TL;DR: This never should've been on the profile and needs to be removed. The reasoning coming from the light novel only is irrelevant. Every other possible point of contention was previously brought up and rejected.
I should clarify though, Venuzdonoa's type 1 CM is fine to stay. This downgrade ONLY applies to base Anos.
Information Manipulation (Type 2)
The basis for this is that magical formulae are used to determine the properties of a spell. That's it. This is nowhere near enough for type 2 info hax; It is the equivalent of saying that a recipe is type 2 info, just because changing it changes the kind of food you make.
2 agree, 1 disagree, 2 neutral.
Regeneration (Mid-Godly)
This is relatively simple. Basically, the source is a concept that can reform the physical body upon death. Except, no scan seems to confirm that it can reform the mind and soul as well, which is required for MGR. Without evidence of that, MGR should go back down to low-godly regen, unless evidence can be provided that the source reconstructs the mind and soul as well as the body.
1 neutral, 1 disagree, 3 in favor of changing it to resurrection.
Limited Invulnerability
This stems from the claim that magic barriers are unaffected by physical attacks. Except, that's just how barriers work; They deflect attacks and prevent the user from harm, which isn't invulnerability in the slightest. In fact, Anos goes on to say he could break the barrier with his bare hands, which obviously falls under the category of physical attacks.
3 agree, 2 disagree.
Fear Manipulation
Anos has this from making people fear him, as shown here and here. The former states that his words carried power which makes humans tremble in fear, and the second state that it's the massive difference in power between Anos and his descendants that make their sources scared. Essentially, this isn't supernatural fear inducement; It's just a byproduct of Anos being really, really strong. People will, of course, fear things far stronger than themselves, which isn't a special ability.
1 agree, 3 disagree.
Resistance Negation
This is because Venuzdonoa can overpower Jerga's resistance to holy attacks. Except... this is literally just layered hax. We never assume that ignoring someone's resistance is resistance neg, because assuming the hax are just more powerful is a lot less of a reach.
4 agree, 1 disagree.
Immortality Negation
Venuzdonoa has this because it can ignore the regeneration of gods, which can regenerate from source destruction. The issue is... none of this implies type 4 or 8. It's only negating HGR, which is fine to stay, but there's nothing indicating it's outright ignoring their reliant immortality (which is based on sources, anyways). Type 3 negation is fine as well, though it should probably go since it's just redundant with HGR negation.
5 agree.
Resistance to Fear Manipulation
This is from Anos not being affected by Ivis' aura, which caused people to tremble in fear. The reason for that fear, however, is that Ivis was far stronger than anyone else in the room ("...The overwhelming difference in power between him and the students had them cowering in fright"). So, this fear manipulation only works against those weaker than the user, which of course would not extend to Anos.
5 agree.
Resistance to Attack Reflection
This is from Anos entering a city protected by anti-demon wards, which annihiliates demons and bombards them with spellfire. It is never stated to reflect attacks, and the scan never even suggests that Anos directly attacked it to begin with, so I'm really confused where attack reflection comes into play. I'm... not entirely sure what this would be, but resistance to attack reflection definitely ain't it.
5 agree.
Resistance to Regeneration and Immortality Negation
The reasoning here is a bit different this time. Essentially, the idea here is that Evansmana, a sword specifically designed to kill Anos, could not kill him (because killing him is not enough to make him die). There are... two problems with this. First is that the mechanic of Evansmana is that it pierces the target's source, thereby preventing them from reincarnating. This is because anyone can be resurrected from their source so long as it remains intact, granting them type 4 & 8 immortality. The issue is that this isn't immortality negation, it's just destroying what someone relies on for their immortality; A D&D adventurer destroying a lich's phylactery is not "negating" its immortality, because losing your immortality after the destruction of the thing you rely on is just an inherent weakness of type 8.
But of course, that leads into the second part, where Anos gets his source ****** and regenerates anyways. At the very least, he should resist regen negation, right? Well no, because of this scene. Anos could only regenerate from Evansmana by sending source regenerating magic into the future, which means he COULDN'T have just regenerated normally; If he could just shrug off Evansmana's effects, he wouldn't need to play 4D chess with time magic to survive. Basically it goes like this: Evansmana destroys Anos' source --> Before this happens, Anos uses Rivide to send Argonemt into the future --> Argonemt triggers after Anos' source is destroyed --> Anos' source is rewound to before it was ever attacked, which implies he would have permanently died had he let the attack land, and also logically means the regen negation never triggered (since his source was reverted to a state prior to it being attacked).
5 agree.
Last thread was extremely derailed for a number of reasons. That, combined with a more thorough analysis of Anos' profile, has led me to make a new thread with greater detail. If anyone attempts to derail this with talks of spite or bias, I won't hesitate to get staff involved. This doesn't need to be a 5-page disaster, so let's not make it one.
Concept Manipulation (Type 1)
Anos has this from destroying sources. This is a problem, because sources were never accepted as being type 1 concepts. In fact, this was explicitly rejected twice before, and a third thread reached no conclusion. Furthermore, the exact line of logic used to claim sources are type 1 (that they govern order) was clearly rejected here. To be blunt, the fact that type 1 CM exists on the profiles at all is a very underhanded attempt at an upgrade, as it is using rejected logic and using the guise of a "rework" to bypass staff evaluation. Sources should go back down to type 3 concepts, as was discussed and accepted here. Also, please do not bring up DT's comments, as those were made in a vacuum and he has never evaluated MG's CM.
TL;DR: This never should've been on the profile and needs to be removed. The reasoning coming from the light novel only is irrelevant. Every other possible point of contention was previously brought up and rejected.
I should clarify though, Venuzdonoa's type 1 CM is fine to stay. This downgrade ONLY applies to base Anos.
Information Manipulation (Type 2)
The basis for this is that magical formulae are used to determine the properties of a spell. That's it. This is nowhere near enough for type 2 info hax; It is the equivalent of saying that a recipe is type 2 info, just because changing it changes the kind of food you make.
2 agree, 1 disagree, 2 neutral.
Regeneration (Mid-Godly)
This is relatively simple. Basically, the source is a concept that can reform the physical body upon death. Except, no scan seems to confirm that it can reform the mind and soul as well, which is required for MGR. Without evidence of that, MGR should go back down to low-godly regen, unless evidence can be provided that the source reconstructs the mind and soul as well as the body.
1 neutral, 1 disagree, 3 in favor of changing it to resurrection.
Limited Invulnerability
This stems from the claim that magic barriers are unaffected by physical attacks. Except, that's just how barriers work; They deflect attacks and prevent the user from harm, which isn't invulnerability in the slightest. In fact, Anos goes on to say he could break the barrier with his bare hands, which obviously falls under the category of physical attacks.
3 agree, 2 disagree.
Fear Manipulation
Anos has this from making people fear him, as shown here and here. The former states that his words carried power which makes humans tremble in fear, and the second state that it's the massive difference in power between Anos and his descendants that make their sources scared. Essentially, this isn't supernatural fear inducement; It's just a byproduct of Anos being really, really strong. People will, of course, fear things far stronger than themselves, which isn't a special ability.
1 agree, 3 disagree.
Resistance Negation
This is because Venuzdonoa can overpower Jerga's resistance to holy attacks. Except... this is literally just layered hax. We never assume that ignoring someone's resistance is resistance neg, because assuming the hax are just more powerful is a lot less of a reach.
4 agree, 1 disagree.
Immortality Negation
Venuzdonoa has this because it can ignore the regeneration of gods, which can regenerate from source destruction. The issue is... none of this implies type 4 or 8. It's only negating HGR, which is fine to stay, but there's nothing indicating it's outright ignoring their reliant immortality (which is based on sources, anyways). Type 3 negation is fine as well, though it should probably go since it's just redundant with HGR negation.
5 agree.
Resistance to Fear Manipulation
This is from Anos not being affected by Ivis' aura, which caused people to tremble in fear. The reason for that fear, however, is that Ivis was far stronger than anyone else in the room ("...The overwhelming difference in power between him and the students had them cowering in fright"). So, this fear manipulation only works against those weaker than the user, which of course would not extend to Anos.
5 agree.
Resistance to Attack Reflection
This is from Anos entering a city protected by anti-demon wards, which annihiliates demons and bombards them with spellfire. It is never stated to reflect attacks, and the scan never even suggests that Anos directly attacked it to begin with, so I'm really confused where attack reflection comes into play. I'm... not entirely sure what this would be, but resistance to attack reflection definitely ain't it.
5 agree.
Resistance to Regeneration and Immortality Negation
The reasoning here is a bit different this time. Essentially, the idea here is that Evansmana, a sword specifically designed to kill Anos, could not kill him (because killing him is not enough to make him die). There are... two problems with this. First is that the mechanic of Evansmana is that it pierces the target's source, thereby preventing them from reincarnating. This is because anyone can be resurrected from their source so long as it remains intact, granting them type 4 & 8 immortality. The issue is that this isn't immortality negation, it's just destroying what someone relies on for their immortality; A D&D adventurer destroying a lich's phylactery is not "negating" its immortality, because losing your immortality after the destruction of the thing you rely on is just an inherent weakness of type 8.
But of course, that leads into the second part, where Anos gets his source ****** and regenerates anyways. At the very least, he should resist regen negation, right? Well no, because of this scene. Anos could only regenerate from Evansmana by sending source regenerating magic into the future, which means he COULDN'T have just regenerated normally; If he could just shrug off Evansmana's effects, he wouldn't need to play 4D chess with time magic to survive. Basically it goes like this: Evansmana destroys Anos' source --> Before this happens, Anos uses Rivide to send Argonemt into the future --> Argonemt triggers after Anos' source is destroyed --> Anos' source is rewound to before it was ever attacked, which implies he would have permanently died had he let the attack land, and also logically means the regen negation never triggered (since his source was reverted to a state prior to it being attacked).
5 agree.
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