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Mami Tomoe verses Medaka Kurokami

@Gargoyle It's AoE, it doesn't mean it can overpower someone with resistance. Can someone who can EE a planet EE anyone with resistance to single person EE? I'm using "potency" to specifically refer to how much control it gives and how much resistance it bypasses, rather than just being how strong it is in general (only the latter includes AoE).

Medaka's resistance is control over bodily movements through EMP wave manipulation, and a brainwashing of her personality and ideals.

@Homu Why didn't anyone say that earlier? If Mami can mindhax people who resist mindhax then she'd take this if Medaka's in character.
 
Gargoyle One said:
Homu Sweet Homu said:
Mami can mindhax someone who have a resistance to mindhax on that scale.
Click to expand...
When was this?
Click to expand...
In the game main storyline.

Holy Mami is a Rumor, Rumor has shown to mindhaxes Magical girl who had resistance to the regular witches Mindhax.
 
@Agnee No that's potency as well. As for the EE thing, yeah, probably can. Can someone who is invulnerable to bullets be unaffected by someone who can bust a planet?
 
SomebodyData said:
@Agnee No that's potency as well. As for the EE thing, yeah, probably can. Can someone who is invulnerable to bullets be unaffected by someone who can bust a planet?
Click to expand...
I'm using "potency" to try to get a word that captures how powerful it is on a single target, disregarding the AoE aspect. If you want me to use a different word, please suggest one.

Invulnerability is a nonsensical analogy because hax is treated differently from AP. If you can mindhax a human-tiered human you're assumed to be able to mindhax a galaxy-tiered human, the same doesn't apply for AP.
 
If you want me to use a different word than "potency" please suggest one so we can get over this semantic bullshit.

EDIT: If mindhaxing more people got over resistances in those verses then it seems like a verse-specific thing that doesn't necessarily apply to all of fiction. There's lots of fiction with weird illogical rules like that which we can't necessarily apply everywhere.
 
No that's about the generic way mind hax works.

And no, its literally just potency. Your argument against aoe based on AP=/= hax fails when you consider we're not giving it a AP "tier", we're giving it a set amount of people it can work on at a time. With this thinking someone who can mind hax the entire universe can't mind hax one guy because he resisted generic mind haxer A, despite focusing his entire mind hax on that one person.
 
Yes, exactly. And to take another ludicrously extreme example, going by your logic, someone who has mindhax resistance 1000 layers of transcendence deep would still get mindhaxed by someone who has no feats of overcoming resistance but mindhaxxed two people at once.
 
No, what? That's still a feat of potency, we're not arguing that it isn't. Your example would only work if it was 1 layer, and even then wouldn't prove anything. And of course I have to use an extreme example, to show how extremely innaccurate not accepting that affecting multiple people, suprisingly, is a better feat than affecting one was.
 
Affecting multiple people is a "better feat" than affecting one is. But it doesn't necessarily mean you can overcome resistance.

If that's still a feat of potency, then how do you compare them? Is each 1 additional person you mind control equal to each layer of transcendence? Can someone who resisted mindhax that affects 1 million people get mindhaxed by someone who can mindhax 1 million and 3 people who don't have resistance?

I don't think that example is extremely inaccurate, and I think it's perfectly fair.
 
Of course, there are limits. But literally a fortress worth of people compared to one (or a few) is definitely one that shows it.

About so. While we don't have any exacts, we just treat them roughly similar, with resisting mind hax generally a few times better. Really depends on the context. If the guy just shrugged off said 1 million hax, I really doubt +3 would make any difference.

It is as it would also bring some extreme examples.
 
Agnaa said:
Affecting multiple people is a "better feat" than affecting one is. But it doesn't necessarily mean you can overcome resistance
Click to expand...
I just have you three examples of that being used.

It's really not that hard, you can take a mind resistance of one person, but a planet wide population onto one person is obviously much higher

It really isn't complicated
 
With Warhammer and star wars, mind users can concentrate their mental potencies into one person. Teturact could mind control a solar system, and he could also crush someone's mind with an equal amount of mental force that could control the solar system. Warhammer has some ambiguously tier 1 mindhax stuff but let's not go there for now. Star wars is similar in this regard. We treat feats of constant manipulation of multiple inviduals or explicit confirmation that they can focus mental power like that as feats.
 
I don't feel comfortable having such a vague unwritten rule like that. Especially one that goes contrary to how we treat most other hax.

Could we get a thread to have a rule written about this? Preferably also talking about other hax like soul manip, EE, causality manip, transmutation, and any other potentially relevant hax you could think of.

I think that just because they can use it on more people doesn't mean it would work better on one person, but that's just me.
 
We already do treat soul hax as this, and the others aren't really the same thing.
 
I can see if I can find you the thread.
 
However, there were examples that we did count as range. What you'll notice with these is that control is either constantly manfained, they scale to breaking a resisrance, or there's confirmation that they can impart all that mental force into one mind if need be.
 
@Gargoyle Those three verses could just be exceptions, there are "rules" that multiple verses go by that we can't necessarily apply to all, because they don't logically follow.

@Wokistan For those verses, sure, but increased AoE can not necessarily be focused on one person. That is something that we cannot assume.
 
For all the verses where it's relevant, it was either a constant control type deal or that. I believe PMMM is the former, though there's also resistance breaking.
 
Non bloodlusted medaka rip
 
we have a file for literally one mindhax user in destiny right now and he's not even usable

MTG's like this too.
 
It's more like a safe rule of thumb like a lot of other things because it's either that or being thrown into a lot of assumptions when sufficient information to make a better judgment is lacking, which isn't all too uncommon for fiction I am sure you know.

I don't exactly like it either, but it works. And yeah, rumors can mindhax Magical girls who are already mind resistant, so Medaka is kinda ******. Though is the Mindhax an instantaneous, passive thing? Skill?
 
That's who I'm talking about, though it's part of the ability to Take which is ridiculous enough. The ascendant realm itself can induce insanity which Oryx can manipulate it, mind manip stuff is literally in the biology of Hive and Vex and Toland went insane studying the hive. We're getting off track though.
 
Other destiny dudes, mostly vex and hive, do mindhax stuff too. Nobody 3D has anywhere near Oryx level feats except possibly Hiraks based on a pretty wonky statement, but I'll stop with the destiny for now.
 
@Gargoyle, while I can't give you verses that go against it, I know barely any verses, and I know one that involves large swathes of people in its story. I couldn't name you a verse that had fate manip ffs.

Also, what would you need for a verse that goes against it? Simply one where people resist mind manip from those who use it on a large scale? You're trying to shift the burden of proof on me to prove a negative. At least make this its own thread so more eyes can get on it, and so that we stop detailing here.

So to get back to the topic, it's probably a stomp either way since Medaka's in character.
 
?

I have you plenty of proof of verses that follow this logic and yet you claim I'm "Shifting the burden of proof"?

I'm not making a thread on what's already accepted, that doesn't make sense
 
X verses following something illogical does not mean that every single verse should be treated that way. Multiple verses have FTL = backwards time travel but we can't apply that everywhere.

If it's already accepted then where can I find the rule for it? If it's an unwritten rule, then make a thread for it to get written so the limits of it can be clearly defined.
 
Oh, after reading that discussion it seems like there's consensus.

Mami still stomps, but even harder now.
 
If Medaka's Erasure can't beat her Type 8, yeah she does

And I don't think it does now that conceptual Erasure was removed
 
Medaka doesn't use erasure in character anyway.
 
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