Making the Tiering System foolproof

[Eficiente]

Some time ago I made the following text be added in the Tiering System:

""Significantly affect" is used as an umbrella term for feats that don't involve direct creation or destruction but are comparable to them in power, such as warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question, sustaining its existence with one's own, merging the structure with another one, etc."

How the tiering was before this doesn't matter. I myself don't see any problem with the text, but there has been a lot of people interpreting it as any manipulation in the x structure (universe, multiverse) being comparable to destroy or creating it, as opposed to those things needing (evidence) to be comparable to destroy or create the structure to gain a tier for it, as the text says. Idk how those people have their take on what the text means with such high value or why they can't see the intended meaning, but I would just live happier by not thinking about it. It's actually pretty concerning how many users can agree with feats that, by missunderstanding that text, are at x tiers, but should instead not be so by standards that should be pretty basic. Those "feats" are often accompanied by dogmatic supporting context like the manipulation being stated many times, or the "feats" or characters doing them being in some privileged position of power, or having even more similar non-feats to back everything up.

We need to improve that text, improve anything in the tiering that may lead to confusion, and get rid of anything in the wiki that may portray Dimensional Tiering as the correct, only way to go;

• The Tier 2 category claims to feature characters that can at least create or destroy a 4-dimensional universal spacetime continuum; 4-dimensional is redundant at best there and wrong if the verse thinks normal humans have way more than 3 dimensions.
• The Tier 1 category claims to feature characters/weapons "at the least 5-dimensional, and at the most beyond all dimensions of space and time altogether", which is outright wrong.
• The Higher-Dimensional Existence page acts as if Dimensional Tiering was always there, it should be restructured into regularly giving no powers but the ones the verse in question gives.

There may be more pages like that I'm missing. @Antvasima @Ultima_Reality @Matthew_Schroeder @AKM_sama

 

[Ionliosite]

I do remember people using an argument similar to what you mentioned on a certain recent CRT that I had to make another revision to undo due to them misunderstanding how it works, so I'm curious to see if there's a better way to word it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Some texts might still be outdated, but it's agreed that it's not about the size of the character, but more like their power over it. And simply being X dimensional is not an AP feat/statement at all, but is basically spatial shenanigans. Although, for omnipresent deities where each dimension is infinite in scale; There's X dimensions with each spatial dimension being infinite lightyears and each temporal dimension being an eternity in length. That would be more examples. Also, dimensions specifically need mentions of being qualitively superior in order to qualify.

Simply distorting dimensions or warping is not enough to be Tier 2/1 yes. But giving birth to universes/multiverses, destroying them, resetting them, splitting them, merging them, or eating them are better examples of AP feats.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality @Sera_EX @DontTalkDT @AKM sama @Promestein @Matthew_Schroeder @Agnaa @YuriAkuto

What do you think about this?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree that the tiering system needs some ironing out and this is a step in the right direction.

 

[Agnaa]

So breaking this down into parts.

Some people think any manipulation in the structure is comparable to destroying or creating it.

I agree that those people are dumb, and only the sorts of things that were mentioned in the note (warping/distorting the entirety, sustaining its existence, merging the structure with another one).

We need to improve that text, improve anything in the tiering that may lead to confusion, and get rid of anything in the wiki that may portray Dimensional Tiering as the correct, only way to go

Wow, sounds great!

The Tier 2 category claims to feature characters that can at least create or destroy a 4-dimensional universal spacetime continuum; 4-dimensional is redundant at best there and wrong if the verse thinks normal humans have way more than 3 dimensions.

What the hell is this? Why is 4-dimensional redundant? Why is it wrong? What verse thinks normal humans have way more than 3 dimensions in a way that we'd accept? I guess it should be reworded to have more similar language to the tiering system page but you've worded things very strangely here.

The Tier 1 category claims to feature characters/weapons "at the least 5-dimensional, and at the most beyond all dimensions of space and time altogether", which is outright wrong.

I don't really think so, but maybe some wording to be more in line with the tiering system page would be good?

The Higher-Dimensional Existence page

I'm not familiar with this so I can't comment.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree that those people are dumb, and only the sorts of things that were mentioned in the note (warping/distorting the entirety, sustaining its existence, merging the structure with another one).

The problem is when a large contingent of said people all become fans of the same series simultaneously and try to have a monopoly on their ratings, leading to wildly innacurate pages.

 

[Agnaa]

I'm not sure how that could be changed, considering the note's already there.

Our only other recourse is to call on Tiering System experts to say whether something qualifies. If they still disagree that's cool for them, but they're not the experts, so even if there's a lot of them they might all just not know what they're talking about, and so they could be dismissed.

 

[Antvasima]

@SomebodyData @The_real_cal_howard @Amelia_Lonelyheart @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Monarch_Laciel @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Andytrenom @DarkDragonMedeus @Dargoo_Faust @Wokistan @MrKingOfNegativity @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura

Your input would also be appreciated here.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Shouldn't Higher Dimensionnal Existence just be nuked? It's something I already thought about for Beyond Dimensionnal Existence.

Like, half of them is just something which repeat the qualification for a tier (majnly BDE, with type 1 to 3 just being tier 1 justifications; and type 0 being kinda weird and case by case to begin with).

 

[Antvasima]

I think that it is fine as a powers/definition page, but it likely needs to be rewritten.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Well, HDE is an explanation page so rewording it would be fine, but BDE really isn't useful. It would be like having "Can punch with the power of a planet" in the P&A of a 5-B character.

 

[Agnaa]

I disagree Yuri. 1-A/High 1-A/0 characters don't necessarily have Beyond-Dimensional Existence. Cosmologies based on reality-fiction differences/higher worlds can reach those tiers without referencing being beyond all spatio-temporal dimensions.

There may also be an analogy to draw with Transduality. While its later types are reserved purely for 1-As, not all 1-As have it, so it isn't redundant.

 

[Antvasima]

Agnaa is correct.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Isn't it weird to have TLOI has an example then? Her whole rating is about being above infinite reality-fiction diff (although there's a vague "above causality n time + she'll eventually lose it in 1 or 2 Ichiban revisions I guess).

 

[Agnaa]

If her tiering has nothing to do with transcending space-time, I'd agree with removing her from the listing then, yeah.

 

[Antvasima]

Rational adjustments are fine of course. I just think that outright deletion is unconstructive overkill.

 

[QuasiYuri]

It's true that deletion may be too much yeah.
It currently feels a lot like an unfinished page, so maybe having examples for type 0 to 2 would be better?

 

[Antvasima]

Perhaps, but we would need knowledgeable members to help out.

 

[Eficiente]

I can propose a few sentences after the text above to fix it but grew some doubts

• Is shaking 2-C, 2-B and 2-A multiverses 2-C, 2-B and 2-A feats respectively? I often see the shaking of multiverses as part of the AP of multiversal characters, or that their battle could be felt universes away, but that's just so weird, if shaking just 1 universe is merely 4-A then wouldn't it be more likely for the same done to a multiverse to also not have nowhere near the power to destroy it? Added to that those type of shakings often don't end up destroying sh*t and the status quo reigns supreme, so wouldn't it be more likely for the destruction they do to be lesser than omnidirectional and no more than the characters messing some things up around the multiverse with their wide range?
• How much time does it take for the destruction of a universe, timeline or multiverse to be so over-time that it doesn't even count as a feat? I have seen cases where in CRTs we settle for "up to [X tier]" or "[X tier] over time" when maybe we should have rigidly said "It takes too much time, it doesn't give a tier".

Simply distorting dimensions or warping is not enough to be Tier 2/1 yes. But giving birth to universes/multiverses, destroying them, resetting them, splitting them, merging them, or eating them are better examples of AP feats.

Resetting, splitting and maybe eating them should standardly not be in the same level as destroying them, they can if the verse gives context for it but there are easy ways to interpret them as hax or lesserly powerful feats (especially if off-screen).

What the hell is this? Why is 4-dimensional redundant? Why is it wrong? What verse thinks normal humans have way more than 3 dimensions in a way that we'd accept? I guess it should be reworded to have more similar language to the tiering system page but you've worded things very strangely here.

Well, if I find a character that can destroy a universal spacetime continuum then that's Low 2-C, using a number 4 there to define that I believe implies a 5-dimensional universal spacetime continuum being destroyed should give a higher tier, which it shouldn't, people would be as confused as Marty McFly if we told them that they're not thinking in the 4° dimension. Though the tiering page does the same.

I don't remember what verse did that.

The Tier 1 category claims to feature characters/weapons "at the least 5-dimensional, and at the most beyond all dimensions of space and time altogether", which is outright wrong.

I don't really think so, but maybe some wording to be more in line with the tiering system page would be good?

You're right the second thing said but idk why you don't think so in the first, having a number of dimensions doesn't a tier and verses can make anyone able to walk and talk beyond all dimensions like normal, which also doesn't give a tier.

The Higher-Dimensional Existence page is like being a living planet; does that inhereditary mean you are 5-B? No, that has nothing to do with it but if it's portrayed that way in-verse then cool. A restructure should take little time.

 

[Agnaa]

Well, if I find a character that can destroy a universal spacetime continuum then that's Low 2-C, using a number 4 there to define that I believe implies a 5-dimensional universal spacetime continuum being destroyed should give a higher tier, which it shouldn't

It would, actually. Since a 5-D universal spacetime continuum covers 5 axes destroying it would be Low 1-C under our system.

 

[Eficiente]

Idk what a 5 axes is but if we can define it and understand it then it's not Low 1-C, which is supposed to see us all as fiction and be infinite times more complex.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Idk what a 5 axes is but if we can define it and understand it then it's not Low 1-C, which is supposed to see us all as fiction and be infinite times more complex.

If this were the case the system couldn't possibly be above 2-A. Our tiering system is largely based on theorizing. Such is life.

As for the thread: I don't know if we need to change the tiering system phrasing, I suppose people could take it out of context, feel free to do so, I don't really have any suggestions that need to be heard in this department. Damaging or destroying a Low 2-C is Low 2-C, doing the same to a 2-B is 2-B, etc. Seems simple enough to me, but I suppose I'm not representative of everyone.

 

[Agnaa]

Idk what a 5 axes is but if we can define it and understand it then it's not Low 1-C, which is supposed to see us all as fiction and be infinite times more complex.

That is completely untrue. Higher tiers can still be reached through dimensions. The dimensions either need to be established as qualitatively superior OR they need to be large, and a character needs to affect their entirety.

 

[Andytrenom]

I'm pretty sure an entire plane of however many dimensions still qualify for higher D tiering. So yeah, agree with Bambu and Agnaa here

 

[Eficiente]

Dimensions are still be used but just saying a number of dimensions doesn't mean they have the same complexity as in Dimensional Tiering, making a quick search on the 5° dimension I found a bunch of wacky inaccurate takes on what's it, and most people use dimensions as in universes anyway. When I mentioned a 5-Dimensional timeline I meant it as in any random use the 5° dimenision anyone can come up with, and how destroying that isn't Low 1-C.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

any manipulation in the x structure (universe, multiverse) being comparable to destroy or creating it, as opposed to those things needing (evidence) to be comparable to destroy or create the structure to gain a tier for it

As someone who has chosen to evaluate Tier 2 threads a large number of times due to other staff members avoiding that discussion this hits home. I'm genuinely tired of explaining that the context of "did X that isn't creating/destroying a multiverse but covers that large of an area" isn't an actual Tier 2 feat unless there's something suggesting the same power can be used to create/destroy that multiverse.

 

[Elizhaa]

I think Ultima already revised the Higher-Dimensional Existence and took out the old/outdated powers from dimensional tiering.

I largely shared the same opinions with Bambu and Agnaa's points.

1. Dimensions are still be used but just saying a number of dimensions doesn't mean they have the same complexity as in Dimensional Tiering, making a quick search on the 5° dimension I found a bunch of wacky inaccurate takes on what's it, and most people use dimensions as in universes anyway. When I mentioned a 5-Dimensional timeline I meant it as in any random use the 5° dimenision anyone can come up with, and how destroying that isn't Low 1-C.
   1. We don't treat those evidence valid for higher dimensional tier if there are no elaborations that those dimensions are valid to the tiering system standard; I think the standard is elaborated in the explanation section of the tiering system page.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @AKM sama

Your input would be appreciated here.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Higher dimensional existence seems like it's similar too but not quite the same thing as other abilities. Example being Spatial Intangibility.

@Eficiente Well, merging, splitting, and devouring universes are indeed AP feats; they don't always scale to other stats but they are AP feats. If by merging, you mean connecting them via a portal, yeah that is not an AP feat, but physically squeezing two or more entire timelines into one is a 2-C feat. Same with causing an interdimensional Big Bang/cosmic inflation that creates two or more parallel universes. And expanding to the point where an Interdimensional Void devourers the multiverse such as Neo Exdeath is a Tier 2 feat.

And I already mentioned that an X number of dimensions in itself is not enough to clarify a Tier. There are plenty of "11-D" statements surrounding characters who aren't even planetary. Or even such things as pocket realities containing X number of compressed or Infinisimal dimensions; those are not AP strong feats like at all. The dimensions need elaborate and/or very specific context about being Infinite in scale or of qualitivly superior to an uncountable infinite number of parallel universes to qualify as Tier 1.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Higher dimensional existence seems like it's similar too but not quite the same thing as other abilities. Example being Spatial Intangibility.

@Eficiente Well, merging, splitting, and devouring universes are indeed AP feats; they don't always scale to other stats but they are AP feats. If by merging, you mean connecting them via a portal, yeah that is not an AP feat, but physically squeezing two or more entire timelines into one is a 2-C feat. Same with causing an interdimensional Big Bang/cosmic inflation that creates two or more parallel universes. And expanding to the point where an Interdimensional Void devourers the multiverse such as Neo Exdeath is a Tier 2 feat.

And I already mentioned that an X number of dimensions in itself is not enough to clarify a Tier. There are plenty of "11-D" statements surrounding characters who aren't even planetary. Or even such things as pocket realities containing X number of compressed or Infinisimal dimensions; those are not AP strong feats like at all. The dimensions need elaborate and/or very specific context about being Infinite in scale or of qualitivly superior to an uncountable infinite number of parallel universes to qualify as Tier 1.

 

[Eficiente]

@Eficiente Well, merging, splitting, and devouring universes are indeed AP feats; they don't always scale to other stats but they are AP feats. If by merging, you mean connecting them via a portal, yeah that is not an AP feat, but physically squeezing two or more entire timelines into one is a 2-C feat. Same with causing an interdimensional Big Bang/cosmic inflation that creates two or more parallel universes. And expanding to the point where an Interdimensional Void devourers the multiverse such as Neo Exdeath is a Tier 2 feat.

By "should standardly not be in the same level as destroying them" I meant that when there isn't more context than those words being said that they would happen then the standard should be to not give them a tier = to destroying them. I said resetting in the first and that can be done by turning back time to its beginning. Splitting a universe can just seal 2 parts of it while damaging none of them, splitting a multiverse can have the space between certain universes become bigger. Devouring is weird, I'm fine with it but it could be over time or to have the structure shrunken and one be omnipresent over it.

 

[Antvasima]

Is somebody willing to ask Ultima_Reality and DontTalkDT to comment here via their message walls?

 

[Wokistan]

"The Tier 2 category claims to feature characters that can at least create or destroy a 4-dimensional universal spacetime continuum; 4-dimensional is redundant at best there and wrong if the verse thinks normal humans have way more than 3 dimensions."

It's really not that redundant, given weird verses that have different amounts of dimensions for a universe.


"The Tier 1 category claims to feature characters/weapons "at the least 5-dimensional, and at the most beyond all dimensions of space and time altogether", which is outright wrong."

Your OP doesn't say why this is wrong though.

"The Higher-Dimensional Existence page acts as if Dimensional Tiering was always there, it should be restructured into regularly giving no powers but the ones the verse in question gives."

Again, this seems really unrelated to your OP. I have no clue what you're going for here. You're saying you're taking issue with using miscellaneous manipulation of a space for tier, but centralize really hard on dimensions? What is going on here?

 

[Wokistan]

Also some other stuff:

"Idk what a 5 axes is but if we can define it and understand it then it's not Low 1-C"

Reminder that we defined and understood our entire tiering system (well, maybe not the latter bit for everyone)

"Is shaking 2-C, 2-B and 2-A multiverses 2-C, 2-B and 2-A feats respectively? I often see the shaking of multiverses as part of the AP of multiversal characters, or that their battle could be felt universes away, but that's just so weird, if shaking just 1 universe is merely 4-A then wouldn't it be more likely for the same done to a multiverse to also not have nowhere near the power to destroy it? Added to that those type of shakings often don't end up destroying sh*t and the status quo reigns supreme, so wouldn't it be more likely for the destruction they do to be lesser than omnidirectional and no more than the characters messing some things up around the multiverse with their wide range?"

Idk if we have precedent for this, but my takes:

• Shaking spacetimes themselves isn't really quantifiable, and should only be used as support unless you're shaking things apart
• Shaking the actual stuff in the universes would just be the solo universe calc times number of universes, High 3-A for infinite matter
• Being felt universes away is at most a range feat

"How much time does it take for the destruction of a universe, timeline or multiverse to be so over-time that it doesn't even count as a feat? I have seen cases where in CRTs we settle for "up to [X tier]" or "[X tier] over time" when maybe we should have rigidly said "It takes too much time, it doesn't give a tier"."

If it's an infinite amount of universes, any finite time would count as 2-A.

Otherwise, I don't think there is a hard limit to where a thing stops being normal AP and goes into "over time" stuff.

 

[Agnaa]

On shaking multiverses, I feel like that should give a character the tier of the respective multiverse if it happens across all time. Causing even a minor amount of damage to every instant of a Low 2-C spacetime should be Low 2-C, since it would require an uncountably infinite output of joules. I think affecting all time and space of multiverses should equalize to the multiverse's tier as well.

However, if it is just a momentary disruption across the multiverse, High 3-A could maybe be given if we knew that infinite matter was affected, Unknown otherwise. Feels mostly like interdimensional range at that point.

On time for feats to be disqualified, technically our system expects feats to take place within one second, but we don't require this for higher tiers and I don't think we have solid standards on it.

 

[Eficiente]

@Wok On the Tier 2 category, I'm not sure if saying 4-dimensional is wise. On the Tier 1 category, I kinda don't need to say why it's wrong, we already agreed on a number of dimensions not giving a tier. What I try to do is to keep everything consistent with what we claim and lead to no confusion based on it. The Higher-Dimensional Existence is currently a problem, it claims that if you have it then you gain a lot of powers that have nothing to do with being higher dimensional, people has given tier 1 stats to characters just based on how they had that ability.

---

More opinions on the shaking part would be appreciated.

I know of a character who could destroy all the matter in a universe in 2 days, which we don't say it's 3-A. I can get behind Low 2-C and above not having a "hard" limit, but what about just 3-A?

On shaking multiverses, I feel like that should give a character the tier of the respective multiverse if it happens across all time.

I can get behind that, but I wouldn't think it counts as it if it affects some specific point in the past, as that can happen via Causality Manip. As in, 2 beings fight and there's a multivesal-quake, near space warps, some planet outside the galaxy blows up, people on other universes can feel it, and there's some change in reality 10000 years in the past, and that's all the feat. How do I know the multivesal-quake didn't just make all those things and nothing more, having gone to mess things up in a non-omnidirectional matter?

 

[Agnaa]

I'm pretty sure that character would get (joule output for destroying all matter in the universe) divided by 172,800 (number of seconds in 2 days).

I know multiple characters that have had simple division like that done for finite over-time feats.

 

[Wokistan]

"On the Tier 2 category, I'm not sure if saying 4-dimensional is wise."
This isn't really a rebuttal. It doesn't even say why you have your doubts.

"On the Tier 1 category, I kinda don't need to say why it's wrong, we already agreed on a number of dimensions not giving a tier."
This also isn't quite true. It's really more scrutiny put on these sorts of feats. Some offhanded mention of whatever dimensional doesn't work, but you can still very much get to higher tiers off dimensions shit. It all depends on the whims of some Brazilian teenager if the dimensions in question fit criteria we used to not judge them on.

"The Higher-Dimensional Existence is currently a problem, it claims that if you have it then you gain a lot of powers that have nothing to do with being higher dimensional, people has given tier 1 stats to characters just based on how they had that ability."
Looking closer at it, that section seems pretty useless. It negates itself with the preface that it's not applicable to all fiction but it's also default higher dimensional abilities, which is pretty amusing. There is no reason to keep a default page aroudn that we don't actually use as a default.

Well destroying all the matter in the universe isn't 3-A either way, but the thing agnaa said probably works. Would like examples of characters this was done for, I feel like I've also seen it but I can't think of specifics and specifics are good to have.

 

[Agnaa]

I'm not sure who it scales to, but Dargoo did a calc of destruction over 10 minutes here, and I did a calc that isn't on a profile yet over 6 hours here. My calc will be added to Katanagatari characters from the fourth book onwards.