Making Speed Equalized matches unaddable to files

[Mr. Bambu]

@AKM sama @Promestein @DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @Dino_Ranger_Black @JustSomeWeirdo @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @Eficiente @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Moritzva @Firestorm808 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest @QuasiYuri @Armorchompy @CrimsonStarFallen @UchihaSlayer96 @Confluctor

What do you think about this?

I disagree with removing them, aye. Speed equalized exists because of the difficulty in finding like-speeded characters. Even speaking as someone who rarely takes part in VS matches, removing these would more or less kill addable matches- at best, they start happening very rarely. At worst, people begin manipulating statistics to make it so their characters can fight at the same speed.

Hard no from me.

 

[ByAsura]

I agree with the premise of the thread, but I don't think we really need to do this when speed equalisation is already mentioned on all the profiles.

Let's be honest, though. Not many staff members care about VS threads and want to add them/open profiles for them to be added.

 

[Planck69]

Same opinion as Damage. This doesn't seem to be anywhere near as large an issue as it seems to be made out to be, so I'm not exactly for their removal.

 

[KLOL506]

I care not about VS matches in the least bit, but the issues seem to be exaggerated greatly, so aye, hard no to removal.

And that's all you're gonna get out of me on this thread.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

While I wouldn't consider myself someone who is heavily involved in VS matches I'm rather fond of the fact that we can have them and I do believe that speed equalization is a crucial tool for making matches possible. Working with the Wiki and the forum is basically a hobby for me, so it's perfectly logical to have some recreational features. Therefore, I would be against removing matches like these.

I guess the problem is how speed equalization doesn't exactly help accuracy? The statistics of the profiles aren't really affected by that and speed equalization is something that is noted when the matches are added, so the only people who would get misled here are those who don't bother to check the profiles. As for equalizing other statistics, as long as we can work out how the rules for that would work we could probably make it work. The question is just if we want to put in the time and effort to make that work and how much of a benefit we would even get from that. Likewise, equalizing other statistics might bother those who already have a problem with speed equalization, so the status quo might actually be better here. We should still discuss all the existing issues though and see what we can do.

 

[KingTempest]

The main. Issue I have is that when attempting to find verses with relative speed, it’s damn near impossible.

Besides the fact that we don’t even have categories for speed, making it drastically more difficult in finding relative speed for matches, most characters either AP stomp or speed stomp, and finding a pair of characters outside of (and sometimes inside) a verse with relative stats for both is extremely difficult.

Characters would both be 5-A, one is MFTL and another is Sub-Rel. Or one is MHS+ and the other is hypersonic. It’s relatively impossible, so unless we magically make it easier to find relative speed matches, idk about this

Put me as neutral

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I don't really care that much about versus threads to be honest, I came to the wiki to calculate and rate stuff because that's what I like to do. I agree with people above that this does not seem to be that much of an issue and would make it difficult to create versus threads but if it is to be removed I don't really mind it to be honest.

Count me as neutral as well I suppose

 

[Damage3245]

Besides the fact that we don’t even have categories for speed

That is something we could implement as a project tbh. I don't see why we wouldn't have that seeing as we categorize characters by tier.

Though it might be complex seeing as there's different types of speed like reactions/attack speed/etc.

 

[KieranH10]

I'm in the same boat as a lot of others here. I don't really care at all for Versus Threads, what happens in them or how they work doesn't really matter to me, nor would I say I know what would make them fun or interesting, as I don't find them as such under many circumstances.

I'm staying neutral but I'd personally lean towards what allows us to have more matches if I had to have a stance.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

That is something we could implement as a project tbh. I don't see why we wouldn't have that seeing as we categorize characters by tier.

Though it might be complex seeing as there's different types of speed like reactions/attack speed/etc.

I guess we could treat the different types of speed the same way we treat characters which qualify for multiple different tiers due to techniques, attacks or power-ups.

 

[Planck69]

That is something we could implement as a project tbh. I don't see why we wouldn't have that seeing as we categorize characters by tier.

Though it might be complex seeing as there's different types of speed like reactions/attack speed/etc.

I mean, maybe I'm oversimplifying this but isn't there the same issue with Environmental Destruction, special attacks etc. for AP? We could just treat speed the way we do there.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, as I mentioned earlier, we cannot realistically cut off a large part of our visits to this forum, if we want to keep it financed, and even without that reality to take into account, I would still disagree with this for all the reasons listed earlier in this thread.

 

[Jasonsith]

Well I wonder how many matches CAN be added to the profile.

In fact, many restricted matches cannot be added to a character profile.

It will be much easier to monitor for knowledgeable character and verse helpers tho.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Tbh I don't really care about VS threads; but I do agree that you either just remove speed equal threads as legit, or just start allowing stats equal threads which are no different.

 

[Crabwhale]

Honestly I can see both sides of the argument here, so Imma just sit this one out. Don't particularly care about VS matches either or.

 

[Eficiente]

I can see the benefits and as much as I would like to depower the wankers by removing them this "status" to look forward, I think this is too extreme.

We could at the very least make speed =zed MUs more sensical by

• removing the "Speed Amps that make stomps aren't allowed" rule because that's bs, it on top of =ing speed also removes the aspects of a character that are those speed amps to make things unfair to them and more fair for others, all while this doesn't happen for characters w/o those kind of speed amps and so they play with everything they have.
• Making a new optional type of speed equalization where rather than all forms of speed being =, only combat speed gets equalized while other speeds keep an equivalent difference to it, going down or up by the same amount in percentage as the combat speed went, and regardless if this is way off said equalized combat speed. As in, lets say combat speed always has to be 10, if a character has it at 100 with an attack speed of 150 then the latter turns into a 15. If it has a far, far higher attack speed for something at 100000 then this gets reflected in a Vsthread by being 10000 (just one 0 removed). If it has a travel speed that's pathetic next to its combat speed then this gets reflected. If it has an attack that's too powerful but with a super slow attack speed then this gets reflected, and so on. This way it stops Vsthreads from having characters reacting and dodging things that "they shouldn't" with an even speed to their foe in a fight, and for things meant to be slow to be suddenly useful. Is this perfect? No, not at all, but it can be just as, if not more a precise way to represent characters than what we have, depending on the MU, and so having 2 options and having people choose 1 can lead to MUs more representative to the characters, under the made up premise of speed being =zed for them.
  • (That also makes characters with MFTL+ speeds that are a bunch of numbers "hold some meaning", as "this is bigger/lower than that" becomes a visible percentage that shows the difference between their combat speed and other speeds, I would suddenly care about them having more than 1 speed.)

If we have a thread like this for Bloodlust and the out of hand assumptions we make there then someone call me for that thread btw.

 

[Antvasima]

How about if we simply write in our rules that it is better, but not mandatory, to not use speed-equalised matchups? It should turn somewhat easier to find alternatives after the new sub-tier templates (and their automatically accompanying categories) have been applied.

 

[Starter_Pack]

I like Ant's idea. While I hard disagree with removing them from profile additions altogether, I think pushing people towards wanting to find matches where speed doesn't need to be equalized would be helpful towards our credibility as a debating platform.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, that is a good point.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

TBH, I don't even like the Vs Debates part of Vs Battles Wiki, but even then, this makes too much sense

Speed Equalized matches basically ignore one part of the character stats purely so it isn't a blitz, which shouldn't happen at all

I agree with completely nuking speed equalized matches. If two characters speed aren't relative, then don't make the match, simple as that

 

[Jasonsith]

TBH, I don't even like the Vs Debates part of Vs Battles Wiki, but even then, this makes too much sense

Speed Equalized matches basically ignore one part of the character stats purely so it isn't a blitz, which shouldn't happen at all

I agree with completely nuking speed equalized matches. If two characters speed aren't relative, then don't make the match, simple as that

What about we nuke the columns of "notable victories", "notable losses" and "notable inconclusive draws" instead?

This will allow people to discuss character matchups with whatever conditions they deem fit, but will not affect the objectivity of the stats of the characters at their profiles.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, as I mentioned earlier, we cannot realistically cut off a large part of our visits to this forum, if we want to keep it financed, and even without that reality to take into account, I would still disagree with this for all the reasons listed earlier in this thread.

How about if we simply write in our rules that it is better, but not mandatory, to not use speed-equalised matchups? It should turn somewhat easier to find alternatives after the new sub-tier templates (and their automatically accompanying categories) have been applied.

Again, I cannot just suddenly cut off at least half the income that finances this forum. That is not realistic, or even sane behaviour. We have to find some other solution.

 

[Damage3245]

What about we nuke the columns of "notable victories", "notable losses" and "notable inconclusive draws" instead?

This will allow people to discuss character matchups with whatever conditions they deem fit, but will not affect the objectivity of the stats of the characters at their profiles.

People can already do those kinds of match-ups in Fun and Games threads.

 

[Antvasima]

People can already do those kinds of match-ups in Fun and Games threads.

Agreed.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I will say, I still think we should consider the option of equaling other stats
It’s kinda arbitrary to just allow speed equal so

 

[Migue79]

Ever since the day I joined this wiki, I have always found it odd that just speed gets equalized in VS Threads. I always thought, "Why just speed? It just makes it seem like the speed ratings in our profiles are pointless. Why not do the same for AP?" Of course, I learned the reason for the former question, and I realize that the latter question won't really make the issue any better. But still...

With that said, my opinion on this topic more or less aligns with Starter Pack's, Mr. Bambu's and Damage's.

 

[Antvasima]

I will say, I still think we should consider the option of equaling other stats
It’s kinda arbitrary to just allow speed equal so

Other statistics are quite easy to find comparable values for, whereas speed is extremely hard to find sufficiently even values for in combination with the former. We would end up with only having stomp matches otherwise, given how extreme an advantage speed superiority is.

 

[Antvasima]

Ever since the day I joined this wiki, I have always found it odd that just speed gets equalized in VS Threads. I always thought, "Why just speed? It just makes it seem like the speed ratings in our profiles are pointless. Why not do the same for AP?" Of course, I learned the reason for the former question, and I realize that the latter question won't really make the issue any better. But still...

With that said, my opinion on this topic more or less aligns with Mr. Bambu's and Damage's.

Completely statistics-equalised matches can still be posted in our fun & games forum.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I agree that Speed shouldn't be excluded from the things that are not allowed to be Equalized, either that or we become more flexible in what we allow to be added.

If Equalizing all stats becomes an Issue why don't we allow the Equalization of Individual stats in general.

 

[Starter_Pack]

What about we nuke the columns of "notable victories", "notable losses" and "notable inconclusive draws" instead?

This will allow people to discuss character matchups with whatever conditions they deem fit, but will not affect the objectivity of the stats of the characters at their profiles.

Let me just say that this is the worst proposition one could possibly make to try and fix this whole situation. People like having concrete results come from the time they spend somewhere, and adding the results of versus debates they create and/or participate in onto profiles allow people to feel like they accomplished something.

Let me just put it like this. If I didn't see that profiles allowed you to add the results of concluded matches, I would never have considered participating in debates myself, and ending up becoming a long-time member of this community. Very poorly thought out idea, my friend.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I disagree with the idea. The reason we have an other section at all is that vs-matches can tell you something about how the characters work in practice, in a fashion that might be beyond the profile itself. That's why matches to be added have to be 'notable', not 'fair'.
A speed equal match can, and in fact often will, produce a more interesting debate that tells you more about the character. So they meet the criteria for being listed.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Starter Pack and DontTalk.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Just a heads up, I don't truly care one way or the other if this is generally agreed. But being realistic, it's not particularly unbiased to make fixed fights for a character who's all about speed to get beaten by some average joe via the one thing that makes them a powerful character in the first place getting taken away from him. And even adding Vs Threads to pages has spited controversy in the past; plenty of people get really made when characters like Goku, Superman, or Saitama lose fights to "Sword wielding teenagers" or even "Little Girls" despite not properly evaluating the powerscaling, feats, and lore of verses in which they originate from. Which banning speed equalized matches from being added to pages would decrease that since some of those fights will be made stomps that don't get added to profiles.

But as others have said, speed stomps happen to be the most common types of stomps. And I definitely do not agree with allowing AP or range equalization any more than I support disabling hax that doesn't come from optional equipment. And there shouldn't be a project to remove all the speed equalized matches from a bunch of profiles and what not.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I'd say that most characters have a lot more going for them than just speed, so they aren't exactly set up to lose if they are put against a slower character.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, aside for all the other mentioned issues, as I keep trying to explain, but it may fall mostly on deaf ears, I think that most of the visits to this forum happen because casual visitors to the wiki click on the matchup results listed in popular character profile pages, which in turn brings in most of our advertisement money, and the sum total of all the money that we currently gain from this still currently just allows us to do a little better than break even in terms of income and expenses.

As such, removing almost all of the current links to versus matchup results in the wiki, combined with making it extremely hard to near impossible to find viable new matchup results to add, is just not realistic in term of the actual long-term survival of this community. We logically cannot do this if we do not want to risk shutting down our entire operation here.

In addition, many of our members find it enjoyable to participate in matchup discussions and potentially have them featured afterwards, and it isn't fair to rob them of that pasttime, even though I am completely uninterested myself. Also, said listed matchup results clearly state whenever the speed levels have been equalised, so it isn't like we are misleading anybody.

 

[Planck69]

I'm not entirely getting the "faster characters would get jumped" argument either.

1. Most of them have powers aside from speed that can be brought to a debate. Else it's just a mismatch regardless of speed.

2. It's not as though this is the most egregious example of farming matches that's here (Thunder McQueen anyone?).

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

In that case, I'm fine with keeping speed equalized matches.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for being reasonable.

 

[Antvasima]

How about if we simply write in our rules that it is better, but not mandatory, to not use speed-equalised matchups? It should turn somewhat easier to find alternatives after the new sub-tier templates (and their automatically accompanying categories) have been applied.

This might be a workable solution though.

 

[Edwellken]

Got permission from Bambu to post here.

What if we just disallow speed equal matches from being added only if they involve a character with the speedster category? That should cover characters who are "all about speed" while still letting people make a reasonable amount of matchups.