Making Speed Equalized matches unaddable to files

[The_Impress]

STAFF THREAD

So this is probably going to be an unpopular thread, but **** it, it needs to be done.

So speed equalization matches are honestly, completely dependent on a core misrepresentation of characters to allow for a match to exist, you CAN’T yadda-yadda speed, an essential characteristic in most battles, just because you REALLY wanted a match to happen, and honestly because of these standards a good chunk of our userbase sidelines speed as a statistic, or metagame to farm wins for otherwise blatantly slower characters (as seen by certain opinions stated in the Speed Amp threads).

Only reason I can think of keeping them is tradition, and honestly that isn’t a valid reason. I know it cuts relevant matches to a sixth, but said sixth are the only matches that don’t grossly misrepresent a crucial mechanic for nothing but the sake of it. You can do this as a fun experiment but not put it on the FILE, since that to a degree expresses wiki opinion.

And while we’re here I’d suggest we make a multiplier for a speed blitz similar to an AP stomp, so as to clarify what works under speed unequalized or not.

 

[The_Impress]

@Antvasima gather staff input :v

 

[The_Impress]

Oh also I should mention that I don’t think sunk-cost is a particularly relevant argument against this, since again, Vs. Threads are secondary to actual contents of the page, them being slightly lacking isn’t that huge of a deal, and we’ve had stomp matches listed until removal before

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

While the biggest defense against the policy is that "Verses will become basically unadd-able. I'm actually starting to agree with this.

I have a while back stopped caring about Vs Threads altogether because they really aren't even particularly important. And it is especially fixed fights are just excuses to give character A to a slight win against someone who would otherwise curb stomp them in an uninterrupted fight with no special balances and conditions. We agreed to make it against the rules to restrict powers, abilities, and standard equipment. And speed equalization is just the biggest fixed condition on the list because speed stomps are pretty much the most common types of stomps besides range. And is pretty much the deciding factor in AP Vs Hax fights. But saying we should keep it for popularity's sake is pretty much a repeat of the Composite Human page. I remember when we used to have a bunch of composite real world profiles that got axed but kept CH due to its sheer popularity, but then that got axed due to us saying popularity alone doesn't grant special treatment. And honestly, even adding wins or losses to pages in itself is pretty prone to inciting conflict when their favorite characters has a loss against someone they'd never expect to lose against. I know that's more so a fault on people having nerd rage, but even so; it would especially be infuriating if it happened during a fixed fight to those. And better is an emptied Vs Threads collection than a cluttered one.

So I will prefer to hear other staff, I'm actually in the leaning of the support of equalized speed being something that won't add profiles to.

 

[The_Impress]

Might I also add, it is COMPLETELY justifiable rage, because some of these matches are only wins for one character because the opposition was EXTREMELY NULLIFIED for said match to even be POSSIBLE.

If the Flash getting oneshot by a regular speed haxlord, that just isn’t how that match will go anywhere except our own forum, and I don’t see how that’s reasonable to add.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Is it even feasible for us to comb through all pages and remove the matches in a fashion which won’t take eons?

 

[The_Impress]

Also quick response to a message I received offsite by a member, I am NOT suggesting restrict Speed Equalized matches from being discussed, instead I am saying, just don't add them to files.

Is it even feasible for us to comb through all pages and remove the matches in a fashion which won’t take eons?

I mean we don't even need to, again matches are just, secondary shit that doesn't have to be done in the NOW, y'know?

Bumfuck Nobody losing in a speed equalized match to Dickshart Someone isn't something that will make or break the wiki. It's a negative, just not an urgent one.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I mean we don't even need to, again matches are just, secondary shit that doesn't have to be done in the NOW, y'know?

I mean we are vs battles wiki so I feel like the matches we showcase on a page are actually are important visually at least, we gave them a whole section so if we are to implement this we should try getting it done with as fast as can imo

 

[SamanPatou]

On one hand, the reasons provided make sense and, as DDM said, we have enforced similar standards for other stats.

On the other side, we have the fact that basically all profiles should receive an evaluation of their matches, and all those featuring speed equal should be axed which, I admit, doesn't take that much time at the end of the day, since it's basically just deleting stuff without having to check that much.
And it can still be done overtime.
But alongside this argument, comes the fact that a majority of matches will become not feasible anymore, even tho one can say the exact thing when it comes to AP.

Setting the standard for a speedblitz would be absolutely necessary, and even some further explanations, because iirc even a slight difference in numbers equals to a major difference in reality, especially when we surpass the MHS tier (tho I'm not sure about that).

 

[The_Impress]

I mean we are vs battles wiki so I feel like the matches we showcase on a page are actually are important visually at least, we gave them a whole section so if we are to implement this we should try getting it done with as fast as can imo

That's a VERY HEAVILY opinionated thing tbh, considering how many times the opposite has been stated.

But yeah I just don't see this as a feasible knock against, it is just attempting to defend the things through threat of work, which doesn't matter since the thing isn't THAT much severe.

Setting the standard for a speedblitz would be absolutely necessary, and even some further explanations, because iirc even a slight difference in numbers equals to a major difference in reality, especially when we surpass the MHS tier (tho I'm not sure about that).

My proposed standard is 7x (gap between Average Human and Subsonic), which you'd be shocked, most speed tiers are flexible to.

Like yes extremely high ones aren't, but imo that's comparable to making matches 4-C onwards, ehere AP gaps are laughable.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, no one is saying speed equalized matches are allowed to be made; only that adding them to profiles may be a bad idea. Obviously they are allowed for the sake of making fair fights.

 

[Confluctor]

Hmm, can't say I can disagree with this proposal. But will wait and see what others say first.

 

[Starter_Pack]

Okay, I am going to have to spark the fires of anarchy and say no to this proposition.

I understand the viewpoint which is being approached here. Speed equalization causes an unbalanced mindset towards versus debates, allowing slower but more powerful characters to overcome faster but weaker characters simply because there is no possible way for the weaker character to overcome the stronger on. It would be like asking Quicksilver to beat Wolverine without his speed. He can't, period.

That being said, this is exactly why we specifically mark all speed equalized matches as such, since we can list which matches are only possible if speed is a non-factor in a debate. Because, at the end of the day, this is mostly for recreation, and featuring matches with speed equalization allows for many matches most people wouldn't even think possible simply because one character happens to be Relativistic while another is Massively Hypersonic or what have you.

This is not a matter of page volume or tradition or what have you for me. I am simply trying to allow our community to enjoy themselves with this kind of debate without feeling like their discussion is frankly pointless in the long run.

 

[The_Impress]

...if it's for "recreation" by definition it is "frankly pointless in the long run", it's a fun thought experiment people took to their heads and ran a non-stop marathon with, and you're enabling this behaviour.

Like note while I can buy it's none of those things for you, what it is by your explanation, is siding with the people who are doing that.

As you say it's laughable for us to erase factors like speed because it becomes a crucial winning condition for ALOT of matches. I think that making characters lose matches and getting that added on file, and I think most people with high speed verses will agree, is utter nonsense on the wiki's part.

 

[SamanPatou]

Admittedly, equalizing speed isn't much different from equalizing AP, which I think is an equally deciding factor.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Admittedly, equalizing speed isn't much different from equalizing AP, which I think is an equally deciding factor.

Personally I see allowing to equalize any stat as a valid option here too

 

[The_Impress]

Personally I see allowing to equalize any stat as a valid option here too

"Goku vs. Paul Blart (All stats equalized)"

 

[Zaratthustra]

I agree with Starter Pack here. I don't see what wrong with letting them stay the way they are, its not like we don't mention that speed is/was equlized. People can see that the speed was restricted for the match.

It is for recreated or a hobby for lots of people, sure some treat it very seriously like its a job which isn't wrong or right, everyone has another perspective on this type of wiki. While we are first and foremost an indexing wiki for characters, what sparked this? An easier way to see what a character can do and then debate it vs someone else. Vs threads works hand in hand with the indexing - the wiki thrives on matches being made, do you think we would be as popular or have as many views if we didn't make/allows such threads to be made? No. You can't deny this - the matches are like the blood in the human body, you just can't live without it.

Sure, speedsters kinda get a blow but no one stops unequalized matches from being made and if they can fight in an equalized match having win cons then speed will be another. People do treat speed too high sincerely. So what if you're fast if you can't punch hard enough? So what if you're fast if your hax is lacking. I welcome unequalized matches to be made as they can be good too - its just that equalized one makes easier to debate for people since speed-blitz has been ingrated into people mind as a mountain that can't be overcome.

 

[The_Impress]

It is for recreated or a hobby for lots of people, sure some treat it very seriously like its a job which isn't wrong or right, everyone has another perspective on this type of wiki. While we are first and foremost an indexing wiki for characters, what sparked this? An easier way to see what a character can do and then debate it vs someone else. Vs threads works hand in hand with the indexing - the wiki thrives on matches being made, do you think we would be as popular or have as many views if we didn't make/allows such threads to be made? No. You can't deny this - the matches are like the blood in the human body, you just can't live without it.

It's not about making the wiki serious lol it's about making bullshit nulling you do for characters to be fallible. You add nonsense losses on characters who will otherwise beat the ever-loving shit out of their opponents because "speed was equalized lol, wiki allows this nerf".

You're rigging matches because you want to, and **** over characters that will paste opponents through their advantages. This is wiki-permissable downplay. Nothing more than that, shouldn't be on the file anymore than AP equalization matches are.

 

[The_Impress]

And for the record doesn't matter one BIT that you're adding "Speed was equalized", it's still a bullshit loss through nulling advantages, just because it admits to being bullshit doesn't mean that's fine now.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

"Equalizing every stat" is never something that's going to be accepted. What's next, Oh Il-Nam winning against some tier 0 character via slightly outwitting them? And especially tier equalization is just going to get chaotic; it defeats purpose of characters being stone walls and/or glass cannons.

That just sounds like more of a reason to just not allow equalization stats in general.

 

[Zaratthustra]

It's not about making the wiki serious lol it's about making bullshit nulling you do for characters no lo ger a thing. You add nonsense losses on characters who will otherwise beat the ever-loving shit out of their opponents because "speed was equalized lol, wiki allows this nerf".

It's not about seriousness it's about rigging matches because you want to, and **** over characters that will paste opponents through their advantages. This is wiki-permissable downplay. Nothing more than that.

Yeah its allows it and? Its just one statistic which like I said can be allowed to be in a match. If X loses to Y it does say on the profile that speed was equalized so people can see and know that X had an disadvantage.

I also remember that you made the thread in the past about making all matches directly equalized cause it was used 90% of the time anyway so why not make it official. Seems you changed your opinion.

So what if its ''bullshit'', its a shit that we, the debaters have created to make more accessible matches, to multiply the fun to say - to let X fight Y but still being in the same tier.

''Paste opponent through speed'' debatable with how much the durability and hax difference can be. You can still make the same match with unequalized speed and see how it will go, some matches will go their way, and some remain the same. Add both on the profile then, there no rule that the same match can't be on the profile twice (once with equal and once without it) - as long as both characters have win cons in both matches then it good.

 

[Tllmbrg]

What's next, Oh Il-Nam winning against some tier 0 character via slightly outwitting them? And especially tier equalization is just going to get chaotic; it defeats purpose of characters being stone walls and/or glass cannons.

You say that like it’s a bad thing

Anyways for a more serious respond, I’m saying that allowing to equal other stats is an option on the table since it’s just the logical end of speed equal
Now if it’s good or bad is up to you but as Zara mentioned above Vs matches are mostly for fun sake, so I think being “Oh this’s stupid and they won through BS method” is kinda missing the point

If you state the specific conditions I don’t see why stat fuckery shouldn’t be allowed
Heck why aren’t we arguing against bloodlust here too?
Characters like say Aang from Avatar explicitly don’t murder yet we’re allowed to ignore that so

 

[The_Impress]

Yeah its allows it and? Its just one statistic which like I said can be allowed to be in a match. If X loses to Y it does say on the profile that speed was equalized so people can see and know that X had an disadvantage.

Firstly it says "Speed Equalized", not " X's Speed was reduced/Y's speed was increased", giving weird insinuations

Secondly it's as valid as adding AP equalization, again, we don't do that.

I also remember that you made the thread in the past about making all matches directly equalized cause it was used 90% of the time anyway so why not make it official. Seems you changed your opinion.

I did yes, people can hold the ability to do that.

So what if its ''bullshit'', its a shit that we, the debaters have created to make more accessible matches, to multiply the fun to say - to let X fight Y but still being in the same tier.

And it's not fun for others to have their files "lol equalized" for some other verse supporters to downplay their statistics to give their own characters wins off yours. Again, it's unfair.

If you're arguing this genuinely, why not allow for AP equalization? I can think of fun matches for that too.

''Paste opponent through speed'' debatable with how much the durability and hax difference can be. You can still make the same match with unequalized speed and see how it will go, some matches will go their way, and some remain the same. Add both on the profile then, there no rule that the same match can't be on the profile twice (once with equal and once without it) - as long as both characters have win cons in both matches then it good.

If we're gonna allow for speed unequalized stomps being listed as well alongside the speed equalized one, I'm completely fine then. Otherwise this is something that can't happen.

 

[The_Impress]

Heck why aren’t we arguing against bloodlust here too?
Characters like say Aang from Avatar explicitly don’t murder yet we’re allowed to ignore that so

I'll give you a very simple reason Tiim, because it's off-topic to the thread. Make your own thread.

 

[Zaratthustra]

Firstly it says "Speed Equalized", not " X's Speed was reduced/Y's speed was increased", giving weird insinuations

Secondly it's as valid as adding AP equalization, again, we don't do that.

I did yes, people can hold the ability to do that.

And it's not fun for others to have their files "lol equalized" for some other verse supporters to downplay their statistics to give their own characters wins off yours. Again, it's unfair.

If you're arguing this genuinely, why not allow for AP equalization? I can think of fun matches for that too.

If we're gonna allow for speed unequalized stomps being listed as well alongside the speed equalized one, I'm completely fine then. Otherwise this is something that can't happen.

They can look at the characters speed and which one was ''nerfed''.

I never mentioned AP equalization..sure you can do it if you want. I have no problem with it, you can take any character that I like or dislike and make 100 loses or wins for them, add it on profile and its okay for me. If you and other people have fun and are entertained (as long as no rules are broken, the debate doesn't get too 'hot') then its okay.

I did say ''Add both on the profile then, there no rule that the same match can't be on the profile twice (once with equal and once without it) - as long as both characters have win cons in both matches then it good.'' IF both have wincons then its okay, not that stomps are.

 

[The_Impress]

They can look at the characters speed and which one was ''nerfed''.

Which isn't relevant unless you actively are checking for it

I never mentioned AP equalization..sure you can do it if you want. I have no problem with it, you can take any character that I like or dislike and make 100 loses or wins for them, add it on profile and its okay for me. If you and other people have fun and are entertained (as long as no rules are broken, the debate doesn't get too 'hot') then its okay.

So this is presenting a scenario NOT accepted by the wiki, and using it as a defense for the current one.

Sure, I'll list the ultimatum then, either allow AP restrictions or disallow Speed Equalization. Happy?

I did say ''Add both on the profile then, there no rule that the same match can't be on the profile twice (once with equal and once without it) - as long as both characters have win cons in both matches then it good.'' IF both have wincons then its okay, not that stomps are.

Why not? It's erasing the character's blatant win against the opponent in fair conditions.

 

[Armorchompy]

Honestly, why don't we just, not add matches to profiles. It would cut down on the drama a lot when a loss isn't actually recorded on a character's profile, and considering that 90% of matches are speed equal already, barely any would be added to profiles if this goes through.

I'm fine with not allowing speed equal matches for the record. I don't hold the opinion too strongly but it does make sense.

 

[The_Impress]

considering that 90% of matches are speed equal already, barely any would be added to profiles if this goes through.

You'd be shocked, tbh. Speed Equalised is so ingrained in people's mind they don't even LOOK for unequalized matches. Basic search gives you a thousands too if you try.

 

[Armorchompy]

eeeh, i doubt that, i'm sure you can find something but a thematic, interesting and fair match is very rare unless it's an in-verse matchup.

 

[The_Impress]

I mean I found decently thematic matches :V

 

[Armorchompy]

"very rare" doesn't mean impossible, as Tllm said we do a lot of forcing the characters into a state that they are not normally in, speed equalization is not too different from SBA, so we might as well not draw an arbitrary line and decide what is "too much" to add to a notable matches section and just remove it altogether, it's a lot more objective, and also would cause people to be less discontent with speed equal matches being removed, when they all are.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that this is an extremely bad idea, as we would have to remove 99% of all versus matchup results from the wiki (which would also very significantly lessen the casual visits to this forum, and as such the advertisement incomes that keep it running), and have an almost impossible time finding any workable future matchups between characters to add at all, as there would be too many factors to take into account in preparation for each of them.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that this is an extremely bad idea, as we would have to remove 99% of all versus matchup results from the wiki (which would also very significantly lessen the casual visits to this forum, and as such the advertisement incomes that keep it running), and have an almost impossible time finding any workable future matchups between characters to add at all, as there would be too many factors to take into account in preparation for each of them.

@AKM sama @Promestein @DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @Dino_Ranger_Black @JustSomeWeirdo @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @Eficiente @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Moritzva @Firestorm808 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest @QuasiYuri @Armorchompy @CrimsonStarFallen @UchihaSlayer96 @Confluctor

What do you think about this?

 

[Confluctor]

I share the same opinion as Saman

 

[Armorchompy]

I commented already. My opinion is that if we remove speed equal matches we remove all of them, that way it's more objective and doesn't lead to all profiles keeping the now basically vestigial "Others" section. Generally I'm neutral towards actually doing the removal though.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, I agree with Zaratthustra's and Starter Pack's points above.

 

[Antvasima]

@Shadowbokunohero @Crazylatin77 @Jvando @Zaratthustra @Just_a_Random_Butler @ElixirBlue @Nehz_XZX @Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Therefir @DMUA @Jasonsith @KieranH10 @Migue79 @Psychomaster35 @DragonGamerZ913 @KLOL506 @M3X @Dark-Carioca @AbaddonTheDisappointment

Your input would also be appreciated here.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't think this is much of an issue. I'm not in favor of all speed equalized matches being removed from profiles.

Of course I'm not interested much in the Versus threads side of things to begin with, so this doesn't greatly concern me.

 

[Antvasima]

In any case, in addition to the arguments put forth by Zaratthustra and Starter Pack, it just isn't realistic to willingly cut off at least half of our advertisement incomes for this forum. It would be extremely destructive for the long-term sustainability of this place.