Makima contract clarification.

[LordGinSama]

Time to address the blatant elephant in the room. Currently Makima has a certain ability that is very easily abused by some individuals since the way her profile is worded makes it very easy to apply no limit fallacies.

The contract with the Prime Minister.

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First of all, the explanation given here is for lack of a better term dogshit that fails to mention it's limitations such as the number count.


We have a similar case with Alucard from hellsing where we outright the amount of times he's able to resurrect while also up to what level of Regeneration this covers. The way that Makima's profile is worded fails to mention to exact number of Japanese citizens, while also making it seem like the extent of damage she can recover from. (As it'd be a massive no limits fallacy to assume her contract covers all types of damage, such as deconstruction, various types of soul manipulation, existence erasure, etc.)

So in this case here's my suggestion for the new formatting of her contract ability with the japanese prime minister. Furthermore, chainsaw man isn't set in modern day Japan but rather an alternative timeline of Japan in 1997, therefore using the number of the modern day Japanese population is flawed.

According to a quick search the number of Japanese citizens at the end of 1977 was 126,011,000. Keep in mind this is being very generous given that massive amounts of humans are killed left and right because of the existence of devils so logically this number would be astronomically lower.


As for the regeneration aspect, I've found that the best feats of her regeneration are these three feats. With the most impressive being her coming back from being slashed apart by Denji, which would be High-Mid. So anything above this would logically bypass her ability to resurrect, as it's made abundantly clear her body still needs to be there in some capacity. This is made obvious as it's shown while she's regenerating the pieces that are damaged reattach themselves.



Final thing to note about this contract, it only covers things that are considered "attacks." so this wouldn't do anything against abilities that aren't considered an attack, such as probability manipulation, mind manipulation, etc.

Spoiler: Old formatting

Resurrection (Per her contract with Prime Minister of Japan, when she is killed, some random Japanese citizen dies in her place[8])

Spoiler: The new suggestion.

Limited resurrection, type 8 immortality, and greater regeneration (High-Mid.) (Per her contract with the Prime Minister of Japan, whenever she is killed one of the 126,011,000 citizens of japan. This allows her to transfer attacks done to her while regenerating, and recover from being cut into pieces.)

 

[Recon1511]

Regarding "attacks" isn't an attack anything that targets her with the intent to harm her?

I mean that's why Denji could kill her, he killed her but because he did it with "love" it actually worked

 

[LordGinSama]

Regarding "attacks" isn't an attack anything that targets her with the intent to harm her?

That's only been shown to work against physical attacks. It'd be a no limits fallacy to assume that she can do the same to non physical attacks whenever she hasn't shown to be able to.

I mean that's why Denji could kill her, he killed her but because he did it with "love" it actually worked

It wasn't an attack at that point, yeah that's my point here.

Mind hax, Passive like probability manipulation, sealing, soul removal and so on and so forth aren't "attacks." in the physical sense.

 

[Armorchompy]

Mind hax, Passive like probability manipulation, sealing, soul removal and so on and so forth aren't "attacks." in the physical sense.

If you wanna argue it's a NLF to say more abstract damage can be affected by the ability, whatever, I think that's fair enough. However this is definitely wrong. It's clearly intent that decides what counts as an attack regarding the contract she made, and the intent behind those things you listed, as they would be commonly used in a VS match, is definitely to harm and attack the opponent.

 

[Recon1511]

Yeah I think we should have more discussion about this

 

[Cyberblader90]

I think the implication is that she could in theory regen from even the smallest bits of her body. Kishibe does not believe that eating her would suffice (he is not aware of the loophole yet), and mentions people are dying currently because of Makima being in pieces. Denji does not believe blowing up Makima would be enough to put her down.

Denji has to even eat Makima's hair and blood to ensure she dies, which implies she could come back from something as small as a hair or a drop of blood (you can see both blood and hair above). timeframe for return from this is currently unknown (Makima was in pieces for at least a few hours and did not regenerate). It was thought possible she might return from Denji's stomach or waste, which did not occur because of the contract loophole.

 

[Cyberblader90]

as for what defines an attack. It's about the perception of the person attacking Makima. The transfer works on the perception of the attacker, given the loophole Denji invoked. Makima's Control powers are very explicitly about perception (her own though) too, and even Yoru's powers are the same way.

Santa has a contract that can redirect mental attacks to her other proxies. While Makima's contract is not 1 to 1 with Santa, it at least proves transfer type contracts in CSM can move mental attacks

 

[Armorchompy]

I think the implication is that she could in theory regen from even the smallest bits of her body. Kishibe does not believe that eating her would suffice (he is not aware of the loophole yet), and mentions people are dying currently because of Makima being in pieces. Denji does not believe blowing up Makima would be enough to put her down.

Denji has to even eat Makima's hair and blood to ensure she dies, which implies she could come back from something as small as a hair or a drop of blood (you can see both blood and hair above). timeframe for return from this is currently unknown (Makima was in piece for at least a few hours and did not regenerate). It was thought possible she might return from Denji's stomach or waste, which did not occur because of the contract loophole.

I think her regen should have a "likely far higher" due to the fact that Denji had to eat her yeah. Possibly straight-up "At least High-Mid, possibly Mid-High"

 

[SunDaGamer]

I think her regen should have a "likely far higher" due to the fact that Denji had to eat her yeah. Possibly straight-up "At least High-Mid, possibly Mid-High"

Wouldn't it be possibly Low-High, Mid-High regen requires all biology to be completely incinerated

 

[Zabazab]

I was actually working on a CRT for Makima that would have included the issue of the degree for her regeneration (her profile even lacks damage transfer it seems), but Cyberblader basically covered everything.

 

[Cyberblader90]

well it would be at least an implication of being able to come back from all of her being digested

 

[Armorchompy]

Wouldn't it be possibly Low-High, Mid-High regen requires all biology to be completely incinerated

I think being digested destroys your biology in a way comparable to being incinerated. Might be wrong though.

 

[Zabazab]

I'm fairly certain being digested chemically breaks something down into usable molecules for one's body, I'd say it's probably enough for Mid-High.

 

[Recon1511]

I agree with what Cyberblade said.

 

[Cyberblader90]

bump

 

[Zabazab]

I think the abilities under Makima's JPM Contract should be:

• Law Manipulation (Devil Contracts are Law hax as accepted on the Devil Physiology Page)
• Damage Transferal (Transmits anything considered an "attack" by the one attacking Makima to JP Citizens)
• Combat-Applicable Immortality Type 3 & 4
• Regeneration (Mid-High, Kishibe said that eating and digesting Makima should not be enough to kill her)

Though I'm open to her regen being "Low-High, likely Mid-High", if Kishibe is not enough proof.

 

[LordGinSama]

Soo if Denji ate her and digested her does that mean he ya know.....?

 

[Zabazab]

Himeno: "Would you still like her if her personality was shit?"
Denji: "Then I'd like shit."

The foreshadowing was crazy.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Soo if Denji ate her and digested her does that mean he ya know.....?

I am become Girlboss, gatekeeper of gaslighting

 

[LordGinSama]

I think the abilities under Makima's JPM Contract should be:

• Law Manipulation (Devil Contracts are Law hax as accepted on the Devil Physiology Page)
• Damage Transferal (Transmits anything considered an "attack" by the one attacking Makima to JP Citizens)
• Combat-Applicable Immortality Type 3 & 4
• Regeneration (Mid-High, Kishibe said that eating and digesting Makima should not be enough to kill her)

Shall I update the OP with this instead? I'd probably just specify on what the law manipulation is capable of.

i think adding in combat applicable to the immortality is redundant. Iirc we only add "non combat applicable." if they can't use it in combat. If they can use it in combat then just leave it as it is normally.

Though I'm open to her regen being "Low-High, likely Mid-High", if Kishibe is not enough proof.

I'd say stick to low-high, digestion doesn't really turn consumed food into gas, but rather the enzymes turn things like protein and starch down into sludge. I think it's more like liquidating than something like vaporization or turning into gas.

 

[Zabazab]

Putting what I said into the OP is fine yeah.

I just specified that it'd be combat applicable bc all Devils have Mid(?) regen from drinking blood as well as type 4 immo for reincarnating in hell, but the latter is useless in a fight, so I agree.

Mid-High would be the destruction of all biological material (cells, blood, etc.) right? That's probably enough for Mid-High if so, but you can ask staff for input.

 

[LordGinSama]

Mid-High would be the destruction of all biological material (cells, blood, etc.) right? That's probably enough for Mid-High if so, but you can ask staff for input.

Have you ever sliced open a deers stomach?

Mid-High is the following. The ability to regenerate from having all biology completely incinerated. This includes being reduced to ash, dust, smoke, vapor, or plasma.


I don't think digestion turns things into ash, dust smoke or vapor. It just breaks down the largest food molecules, leaves behind a soupy sludge then ya turn it into Mr hanky.


Here's a better picture for you to understand.

 

[Armorchompy]

Have you ever sliced open a deers stomach?

That's how I start all conversations, too.

 

[Zabazab]

Have you ever sliced open a deers stomach?

The stuff in the stomach isn't fully digested.

Mid-High is the following. The ability to regenerate from having all biology completely incinerated. This includes being reduced to ash, dust, smoke, vapor, or plasma.

Yes, I'm questioning the situation with Makima though because digestion chemically breaks down matter into nutrient, leaving no more proper biological structures, which sounds comparable to Mid-High.

 

[LordGinSama]

The stuff in the stomach isn't fully digested.

Fair.

Yes, I'm questioning the situation with Makima though because digestion chemically breaks down matter into nutrient, leaving no more proper biological structures, which sounds comparable to Mid-High.

Proper is the big word there, there's still biological structure in the form of billions of microbes, and still contains things like nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium.


Why the **** are CSM threads so weird.

 

[SunDaGamer]

How did the regeneration page never account for regenerating from poop

 

[LordGinSama]

How did the regeneration page never account for regenerating from poop

I wanted to ask this question but like I didn't want to be the first to ask it lmfao.


"Ayo what level of Regeneration for regenerating from poop?"

 

[Zabazab]

Chompy's suggested that they could be comparable with admitted caution, ig we just wait for more staff input?

Either that or make a Q&A thread for "Is regening from complete digestion Low-High or Mid-High?"

 

[Recon1511]

Regenerating from poop

Crazy

 

[Armorchompy]

I definitely wouldn't scale her to the poop feat fully, it's at best a conjecture that she might heal from it and an unsure one. To me it's more the fact that basically any other kind of destruction wouldn't do her in that's noteworthy. Even that should just be a likely/possibly though, they might have just (very understandably) wanted to play it safe

 

[Zabazab]

I find it very significant though that Kishibe didn't believe it'd be enough to kill her, and then afterwards stated it shouldn't have killed her- only working due to the loophole of Denji not seeing cannibalizing her as an attack.

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean the latter might have meant she'd have regen-d before the "attack" completed, it took several weeks after all.

 

[Zabazab]

It's still not as likely as him meaning what he says, that it only worked via the loophole of Denji's perception and otherwise would have failed, in my opinion.

 

[LordGinSama]

Bump.

 

[Cropfist]

Mid-high seems too speculative

 

[SheevShezarrine]

I think her regen should have a "likely far higher" due to the fact that Denji had to eat her yeah. Possibly straight-up "At least High-Mid, possibly Mid-High"

Save for striking the "at least" to be rid of an implicit bias towards the high-end as it is speculative (even Kishibe has highly incomplete knowledge of Makima, as knowledgeable as he is), I believe Armor's suggestion is best.

 

[Zabazab]

Having an "at least" would be appropriate I think, Makima's Contract was killing people while she was literally wee chunks of meat in the fridge. That sounds like the high-end of High-Mid imo.

As for the level of regeneration listed, I'd personally be partial to At least High-Mid (chopped up in the fridge), likely Low-High (Denji had to consume her blood and hair to ensure her death), possibly Mid-High (had her entire body chopped up, cooked, and fully digested, yet Kishibe believes it only worked due to Denji's love bypassing her contract).

Though Mid-High isn't a hill I'd die on, just a possibility. Low-High at minimum deserves likely rating.

 

[LordGinSama]

Just got for a possibly / likely low-high. Digestion is wonky as fudge for something like Mid-High which requires restoration from being reduced to ash, vapor or plasma. None of that really happens in the process of Digestion, DNA, cells and overleft matter are still present so there's no reduction to ash, plasma or vapor.

 

[PhantomØ4]

Seems like stubbornness to stick to the exact gaseous wording of the regeneration page which does not account for digestion regeneration. If you had an ability which busted all of your cells in your body but didn’t turn the opponent into a gas-like state it should fall under the same category as having all biological mass incinerated.

I find it difficult to believe that the point of that regeneration level is turning into gas more than having no regular biological remains— the examples given in each regen tier only serve to give common example feats to logically determine what it is.

Also, question. Why are we trying to figure this out as if it was regular regen and not damage transferal which acts like regen? If this is damage transferal based law hax not relying on her brain or whatever, what stops the damage of say, getting vaporized (if you don’t accept the previous) from getting transferred? Getting an arm vaporized and transferring the damage to another being should be no more difficult than transferring the vaporization of the whole body because it’s not reliant on body mass. Would she be unable to transfer her arm getting vaporized?

 

[Aaaaa11112222]

Wasn't Kishibe doubtful that Denji's plan to eat Makima would actually work in-universe? With it later stating that the only way to kill Makima is through an act of love? Therefore, doesn't this entail regeneration at a conceptual level or something like that?