Major Mortal Kombat Revision Part II

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

What are they?

 

[Hellbeast]

What are they?

Deception alone gives two accounts for Shao's survival, seems to imply multiple characters bested Onaga (when we know that it was Shujinko), UMKIII gives a bunch of contradictory scaling for the characters etc. I don't think we should be using arcade endings at all

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Deception alone gives two accounts for Shao's survival, seems to imply multiple characters bested Onaga (when we know that it was Shujinko), UMKIII gives a bunch of contradictory scaling for the characters etc. I don't think we should be using arcade endings at all

I mean endings can be used case by case, right? Canon endings are a thing in the Midway games, such as Scorpion's ending in MKDA where he was thrown into a soulnado, before it was revealed in the next game MKD he slipped into the Heavens to escape the soulnado he was in.

Endings are the major source of continuity for the MK story way before the cinematic story format

 

[Hellbeast]

I mean endings can be used case by case, right? Canon endings are a thing in the Midway games, such as Scorpion's ending in MKDA where he was thrown into a soulnado, before it was revealed in the next game MKD he slipped into the Heavens to escape the soulnado he was in.

Endings are the major source of continuity for the MK story way before the cinematic story format

I'm fine with endings that are canon but we need to make it clear only the ones referenced in later games can be used (unless we wanna use the one where Ermac scales to Shao Kahn, devastating the planet). Otherwise we really get into a messy situation

 

[Antvasima]

I gotta re-do some stuff in my MK calcs to follow what KL to get 'em approved, but other than that... not much is left. We already got stats covered and the scaling chain sorted out, so after everything is sorted in my end, I think all that is left, after a bit more talking to cover our bases, is to do stuff for the profiles... which is a major, major task in itself.

Well I've made 15 out of 64+ profiles for Midway MK (still lacking na&t section, stats, and reasonings for powers and stat), so at least we have progress

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

I'm fine with endings that are canon but we need to make it clear only the ones referenced in later games can be used (unless we wanna use the one where Ermac scales to Shao Kahn, devastating the planet). Otherwise we really get into a messy situation

Yeah we won't be using exaggerated endings like the ones in the arcade where MK3 Shang has soulhax potency equivalent to Shao's when he takes all of the souls that he released upon death, but there are endings that aren't referenced in game but provide canon information or reference canon stuff. Like we can take bits from the ending of Shang Tsung in MKDA where it explains how they were able to control Onaga's undead army with the amulet and Kenshi's ending which explains how he can see despite being physically blind.

Some endings also show the potential of stuff like what would happen if Onaga merged the Kamidogu which never happened, but his ending still shows us a good reason why the heroes had to stop him. What do you think?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

To add on to this conversation of using aracade endings... I vaugely recall some of 'em being useful for scaling, for example, Quan Chi's DA ending showed Kano could only beat Shang Tsung when he was effectively depowered and only with a surprise attack, and Quan Chi easily one-shotted him - with this, we can establish the scaling of "Kano (and characters on his level) is below Quan Chi and Shang Tsung to a notably degree and can only beat one of them in very specific conditions".

 

[Antvasima]

Do you all still need my help here, or should I unsubscribe from this thread?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Do you all still need my help here, or should I unsubscribe from this thread?

Up to you, Ant. Personally, I think you can relax from this thread for a bit since we will likely just talk about what bits and pieces of the aracde to use for scaling and afterwards Ecstasy will likely work on the profiles that needs to be worked on (before we can truly get okays from mods to apply all of this to the verse page) which will likely take some time.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will unfollow this thread then, as I am very overworked.

 

[Hellbeast]

To add on to this conversation of using aracade endings... I vaugely recall some of 'em being useful for scaling, for example, Quan Chi's DA ending showed Kano could only beat Shang Tsung when he was effectively depowered and only with a surprise attack, and Quan Chi easily one-shotted him - with this, we can establish the scaling of "Kano (and characters on his level) is below Quan Chi and Shang Tsung to a notably degree and can only beat one of them in very specific conditions".

Thing is this is inconsistent as hell and doesn't even happen within the narrative of the series

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Thing is this is inconsistent as hell and doesn't even happen within the narrative of the series

Ain't that just Mortal Kombat in a nutshell, tho... Essentially the NRS era. Also, can you explain a bit more of what you mean, HellBeast? Like are you referring to the kano stuff or the arcade stuff in general? For the Kano point... is there any actual point in-verse that Kano-level people (... middle tier? low tier?) actually face Shang-tier people (High Tier? Middle Tier?)? Liu Kang is the only one who faced Shang Tsung, Quan Chi, and Shinnok in one v one fights (mortal kombats) and won. By MK: DA intro, we know Sonya, Johnny, and so forth were killed before they ever had the chance to face Shang Tsung and Quan Chi, and MK:A has the whole thing of the kombats getting stronger (and the entire story mode in MK:A happening in Taven's PoV).

 

[Hellbeast]

Ain't that just Mortal Kombat in a nutshell, tho... Essentially the NRS era. Also, can you explain a bit more of what you mean, HellBeast? Like are you referring to the kano stuff or the arcade stuff in general? For the Kano point... is there any actual point in-verse that Kano-level people (... middle tier? low tier?) actually face Shang-tier people (High Tier? Middle Tier?)? Liu Kang is the only one who faced Shang Tsung, Quan Chi, and Shinnok in one v one fights (mortal kombats) and won. By MK: DA intro, we know Sonya, Johnny, and so forth were killed before they ever had the chance to face Shang Tsung and Quan Chi, and MK:A has the whole thing of the kombats getting stronger (and the entire story mode in MK:A happening in Taven's PoV).

The Kano thing for not happening, the arcade endings in general for the Inconsistent bit (since this could easily get you many characters scaling to the top tiers outright when they are shown either being demolished or bending the knee in canon). We really need to stay to what's stated as having actually happened in regards to endings

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

The Kano thing for not happening, the arcade endings in general for the Inconsistent bit (since this could easily get you many characters scaling to the top tiers outright when they are shown either being demolished or bending the knee in canon). We really need to stay to what's stated as having actually happened in regards to endings

Or we can just be chosey on what is deem usable info in the arcade endings. Like set up parameters like "anything that involves a character defeating the title's big bad(s) or generally contradict canon is unacceptable" but info that doesn't contradict the "canon ending" or can be hypothetically possible for the characters invovlved can be deemed usable.

Like right off the bat, we can cross off a vast majority of the first three MK games aracde endings (that aren't Liu Kang's), and Armageddon's arcade endings since a lot of those endings are just what if (character here) won and the true canon is Taven winning and powering the shit out of everyone left or Shao Kahn winning and leading to the NRS timeline.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

The Kano thing for not happening, the arcade endings in general for the Inconsistent bit (since this could easily get you many characters scaling to the top tiers outright when they are shown either being demolished or bending the knee in canon). We really need to stay to what's stated as having actually happened in regards to endings

Can you stop with your mindset on how to use endings in a fighting game, you act like people will use endings of them beating the big boss or facing the most strong characters of the series

All you do with this is limit info and additonal proof on something just because you aint a fan of it, you only make things harder and more complicated with this fixation

 

[Hellbeast]

Can you stop with your mindset on how to use endings in a fighting game, you act like people will use endings of them beating the big boss or facing the most strong characters of the series

All you do with this is limit info and additonal proof on something just because you aint a fan of it, you only make things harder and more complicated with this fixation

My guy, we have bios, gameplay feats (via Death Traps), cutscenes, Konquest Mode and Canon Endings. We have plenty of material to use, can we stop acting like MK is a verse with an absence of sources like Primal Rage? I'm not saying we shouldn't use endings, only that we need to be selective and co case by case here as a rule.

Or we can just be chosey on what is deem usable info in the arcade endings. Like set up parameters like "anything that involves a character defeating the title's big bad(s) or generally contradict canon is unacceptable" but info that doesn't contradict the "canon ending" or can be hypothetically possible for the characters invovlved can be deemed usable.

This, I can agree with, so long as we make it clear we can't just use every ending and should focus on either what is stated to have happened (Like Drahmin vs Scorpion) or on elements we'd lack otherwise (The One Being)

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Okay so let's keep it simple here, all we have to do is be selective when it comes to drawing sources from endings. Endings that are like every character on the roster beating Shao Kahn in MK3 and whatnot are a no-no, while endings that show potential effects and explain canon stuff like what happens if Onaga fuses the Kamidogu, why Li Mei's bio in MKD says she's attracted to the Dragon King and what will it lead up to, etc. is okay. Right?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Okay so let's keep it simple here, all we have to do is be selective when it comes to drawing sources from endings. Endings that are like every character on the roster beating Shao Kahn in MK3 and whatnot are a no-no, while endings that show potential effects and explain canon stuff like what happens if Onaga fuses the Kamidogu, why Li Mei's bio in MKD says she's attracted to the Dragon King and what will it lead up to, etc. is okay. Right?

I believe so

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Upon further thought, some - keyword, some - of the character beating big bad(s) endings might be useful... in the sense of establishing that the higher tiers are much stronger than the lower tiers who need outside conditions to beat 'em ala the kano stuff I pointed out in Quan Chi's ending in MK: DA.

Mileena's MKII ending points out she needed to catch Shao Kahn off-guard and outsped him to kill him, Jax's MKII ending stated he needed Shao Kahn off-guard to defeat him, Mileena/Khameleon/Baraka/Stryker/Noob Saibot's MKIII ending stated they only defeated Shao Kahn when he was weakened and/or off-guard. You folks get the idea, I suppose.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Oh, and my calcs have been given the go ahead... also KLOL pointed out smth to me with the bridge feat and it is now 8-C [0.28 Tons]... So 8-C Midway MK? If the Champion of the Elder Gods has the strength of ten warrarios = x10 stronger than a "normal" warrior, the high/god tiers might be H8-C at the very most, or smth.

 

[Hellbeast]

Honestly the 10X thing seems hyperbolic but I could see a possibly higher rating for it

 

[BlackDarkness679]

My guy, we have bios, gameplay feats (via Death Traps), cutscenes, Konquest Mode and Canon Endings. We have plenty of material to use, can we stop acting like MK is a verse with an absence of sources like Primal Rage? I'm not saying we shouldn't use endings, only that we need to be selective and co case by case here as a rule.

How about you stop acting like endings are not for use cuz a fodder has one beating a final boss therefore stick just to what the lore says, you act like people will use these and be accepted to somehow justify all scale to each other in a circular way, are you unable to distinguish what is fine and what is not for an ending?

And just cuz it has bios, modes, cutscenes from somewhere, etc, doesnt mean you literally throw away anything not fitting your own narrative, any bit of material whether needed or not is more then welcomed, you are just limiting things and make big fuss over something that is easily avoidable

Learn to be more open minded

 

[Hellbeast]

How about you stop acting like endings are not for use cuz a fodder has one beating a final boss therefore stick just to what the lore says, you act like people will use these and be accepted to somehow justify all scale to each other in a circular way, are you unable to distinguish what is fine and what is not for an ending?

How about you start noticing that I'm fine with using arcade endings on a case by case basis and add to the conversation instead of fixating on this point? I'm openminded enough thanks

 

[BlackDarkness679]

No you are not and you never will be and im not involving myself on any tier 8 only MK, which all started from a former staff making this a doomed verse, when there is far better stuff out there for big upgrades, yet its not accepted simply cuz of people like you not being open minded about it to begin with

Whatever you have to say after, i dont wanna hear it, im not gonna follow this thread anyway to hear anyway

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Guys enough of this, you should see what I decided on about endings

 

[Hellbeast]

Yeah sorry Ecstasy, let's move on

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Oh, and my calcs have been given the go ahead... also KLOL pointed out smth to me with the bridge feat and it is now 8-C [0.28 Tons]... So 8-C Midway MK? If the Champion of the Elder Gods has the strength of ten warrarios = x10 stronger than a "normal" warrior, the high/god tiers might be H8-C at the very most, or smth.

Sweet, Building level low tiers. About the EG's champion having the "might of ten warriors", does having the might of ten warriors actually imply a multiplier or no?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Sweet, Building level low tiers. About the EG's champion having the "might of ten warriors", does having the might of ten warriors actually imply a multiplier or no?

A bit vague, but I think it might best qualify as a possibly H8C rating only. But, it does have the backing of those being affected by this possibly rating being immense superior to the others, so that helps.

 

[SamanPatou]

I feel that the might of ten warriors still is still kind of hyperbolic tbh.

 

[Dust_Collector]

I'm kinda mixed on yhe ten warriors thing, like yeah it makes sense and isn't contradicted but it also feels like they're just saying it as an expression, "strength of <insert whatever" is a common phrase.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Then, is everybody just fine with the compromise of a rating of "At least 8-C, likely far higher" instead of a full-on 10x boost?

 

[SamanPatou]

I am.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Then, is everybody just fine with the compromise of a rating of "At least 8-C, likely far higher" instead of a full-on 10x boost?

Any example of a reasoning or justification for this tier?

 

[Hellbeast]

Same here

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Any example of a reasoning or justification for this tier?

Hm... Am not the best at this, but I'll try... At Least 8-C (All members of the cast are capable of surviving this (insert link to 8-C feat here), and everyone is capable of harming each other. Insert character-specific feats here, i.e, Liu Kang beating Shang Tsung/Shao Khan/Shinnok, for example), likely far higher (Raiden has stated that an Elder God's Champion has the "might of ten warriors").

Can be much better, obv. I'm bad at on-the-spot things.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Hm... Am not the best at this, but I'll try... At Least 8-C (All members of the cast are capable of surviving this (insert link to 8-C feat here), and everyone is capable of harming each other. Insert character-specific feats here, i.e, Liu Kang beating Shang Tsung/Shao Khan/Shinnok, for example), likely far higher (Raiden has stated that an Elder God's Champion has the "might of ten warriors").

Can be much better, obv. I'm bad at on-the-spot things.

Is this for the high tiers?

And as the others pointed out, the "might of ten warriors" is likely hyperbolic and probably doesn't imply a 10x multiplier. Like ten 8-C characters wouldn't beat a High 8-C character on this site

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Is this for the high tiers?

And as the others pointed out, the "might of ten warriors" is likely hyperbolic and probably doesn't imply a 10x multiplier. Like ten 8-C characters wouldn't beat a High 8-C character on this site

Yep. Low tiers won't have the possibly far higher rating, tho.

I know. Thus, a possibly far higher to account the might of ten warriors statement and the general fact that high tiers are generally above the low tiers instead of a "solid" H8C.

 

[Hellbeast]

TBH I could see them getting it during Armageddon

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Armageddon just do be giving low-tier characters the ability to fight high-tier characters cuz of power boost and it being the last mainline game (MK vs DC is in a weird spot, tho)...

Although... Well, I have to ask... Are we going to give characters keys that pertain to the different eras? I.E, a MKI-MKIV key (that is 9-A), and a MK: DA to MK: A (that is 8-C)? Like the 8-C stuff only comes from the 3D games and there is an in-verse time-skip and we do know that characters got stronger over time after all. idk. Ideas?

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Armageddon just do be giving low-tier characters the ability to fight high-tier characters cuz of power boost and it being the last mainline game (MK vs DC is in a weird spot, tho)...

Although... Well, I have to ask... Are we going to give characters keys that pertain to the different eras? I.E, a MKI-MKIV key (that is 9-A), and a MK: DA to MK: A (that is 8-C)? Like the 8-C stuff only comes from the 3D games and there is an in-verse time-skip and we do know that characters got stronger over time after all. idk. Ideas?

Maybe but instead of keys from different eras they will just get unique keys. For example, the younger Sub-Zero (fun fact: he was never named Kuai Liang until MK9) would have his Base Sub-Zero key and his Grandmaster key because he was amplified by both the Dragon Medallion in MKDA and the armor of his ancestors in MKD when he reclaimed the Dragon Medallion and the Lin Kuei from Sektor in a battle

Not many characters have explicit power boosts, but they could have a Base key and an Armageddon key for fighting on par with everyone, such as Jax versus Quan Chi