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Major Mario CRT: Mama mia, another one!?

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"Low 2-C base forms is pushing it given countless discussions + absolutely need DRB's approval before making such as massive upgrade."

Considering most of dem feats are narrative and plot related and numerous enough...I personally don't see the issue (going by narrative "outliers" im surprised mario is even rated 4-C levels here and not tier 8). But I'm not a bureaucrat on this site so yeah.

"becoming one with the Void that is something."

I don't see why that'd give a speed rating at all, but is there even a cite ad verbatim for this quote? Sounds more like an extension of Bleck's/Dimentio's acasual state / powers.

"And regarding the Dreams, it's a chain reaction for everyone else. But the Star Spirits are clearly the ones actively creating the Dream Worlds by collecting each and every dream."

The dream depot itself is credited with the dreams going to it and containing it, going by them stating "many dreams come here", its not a process that they are involved in. Them creating dreams shouldn't be assumed to be different than a chain reaction. The word dream/dream worlds doesn't inherently mean that the size of a dream is a universe by name alone, you can dream about smaller stuff like irl, some of those worlds don't even have stars or something hinting they are that size and talk about concepts that arent universal sized things. There's not really a citation for these worlds being parallel you've given so Im not currently convinced, even the dream of the wonders of the universe is related to be a 3-C size going by eldstar and even with misstar it being "of" the universe or of the galaxy doesnt inherently mean its the whole thing or specifically the size of a universe or even a galaxy, you can just be describing a part of it chosen to be dreamed about, the Eiffel Tower isn't the size of the Earth for being a wonder too, the size of the dreams seem very uncertain to equate even this one, or all of these ones going by here.

If derailment is said in response to arguing relevant points here, then that's not a great arguement.
 
Being able to move in a place without time only working as resistance as time stop is not a good reason to deny this feat. I'm getting tired of repeating myself. I am NOT saying they get infinite speed for moving after the destructions of timelines. I am saying the inside of the void itself has no time due to consuming it. The difference between busting a universe and the Void consuming it is that the Void still exists and encompasses the universes. Only rubbing this off as a resistance only doesn't work best. Especially since you're equipped with something that is the source of said Void.

You completely misunderstood the feat itself. I am claiming that the Star Spirits are the creators of the Dream Depots, this was stated in the guide itself. You can't dream and make new worlds without the Dream Depot not existing. There would be no point in the Star Spirits making the maps you play if the cast alone can just make their own. Clearly these guys are making them not from just dreaming. Context is not needed on how they made it, this statement is valid unless there are contradictions. It also never explicitly stated that the people who dream directly make a dream. It says everyone's dreams comes together, which implies a lot more that the Star Spirits take the people's dreams and create them into actual dream worlds in the Dream Depot. Also, we are not going over the variable dream size shit again, make a seperate CRT for this which I doubt will go through as this has been claimed already and denied.

He is the inheritor of time from start to end. Inheritor means someone who receives something, meaning he literally has the universe. And he rules over all creation itself, along with stating to be the master of time and space itself. This all seems like Low 2-C. You gave no actual reasons for the disagreement other than "this justification doesn't seem like Low 2-C".
 
You miss the point that they wielders have these resistances already accepted as such on ther profiles due to surviving the Void and would qualify as powers capable to do such a thing here. Moving in a timeless void isn't even neccessarily speed related, even by fictions standarts. This is hardly something that is a cut and dry speed feat, even up to interpretation wise it's just as fair to judge this and to call it a resistance feat.

They aren't the creator of the dream depot wholly even if the dreams added to its collective state are made by outside sources merely "dreaming". There's nothing implying they made the dream depot as a construct in what I read in the guide. The individual dreams that you go into sure. The point would be that they make dreams the same way everyone else does, it being called make or created doesn't matter if thats the process done, its not via reality warping or the like. Context is needed since you are assuming it scales to AP. A Goomba could be said to "create" dreams and context wouldn't imply any different like with here. Ok nice, the star spirits making dreams for others hardly matters since everyone can dream, the guide even stated the star spirits hold in regard the mario cast as the best dreamers around that they do it out of a favor hardly means they reality warped those places into existence if the mario cast can do it themselves via being better dreamers. I mean if you put down that all of the dreams are equal in size, let alone even all universal sized, to one presumably and arguably not a universe size one, then yes, for a tiering you should provide that info for everyone to be linked on the profiles. It is completely relevant here. Associating size for each dream by just being called a "dream"/"dream world" each is a huge association fallacy going by what's been discussed, individual dreams outside of one dream hardly have info to be called entire universes and specific info to relate to all dreams or even the sizes of the ones listed. If you need a separate CRT for that then the justifications posted here are sorely lacking. I'll make the separate CRT then, but this only shows you don't have the justifications already in the OP and just liberally stated blah blah blah.

"Inheritor of the ultimate of Two". That is not the inheritor of time. That's not even a specific statement pertaining to power that you can extrapolate from. Ruling over something hardly means you transcend it or somesuch that scales to attack potency. Freiza being the "ruler of the universe" gib doesn't mean he's low 2-C in older arcs. Being the master of time and space is a similar title here, its just that an, authority title. It has no relation to AP. Likewise, being the king of time and space wouldn't mean anything AP wise.

I'll probably skip out on the thread now tho before this goes haywire and git to work on the other thread regarding multiple verses dream sizes. It's pretty clear what my vote is on the things i disagree with are.
 
None of the four heroes have resistance to time stop, only void manipulation. But that does not mean they can freely move in a place without time. Why would resisting void manipulation mean you can move in a place without time? You can resist the void's destruction but you would still not be able to move inside of it without infinite speed. Saying moving in a timeless isn't a speed feat is redundant as we outright have a page for it explaining if it's a speed feat or not. You don't get to pick which one does and doesn't count without good reasoning. Your entire argument boils down to "they resist void manipulation, therfore they can move in its timeless space".

You once again misunderstood my entire statement. No, just dreaming alone does not make the dream itself, I already said this. Reread my paragraph because I am not going to explain the exact same thing I just said. Why would I need context for it to scale to ap when they are seeing what people dream and creating what their dreams were. This is the equivalent of saying context is needed for any type of creation feats. It's not an assumption, they create the dreams. The dreamers only show what they make it look like. For example, if I ask a magical being to make a house and give them the details on how I want it to look and he makes it, then it scales to him. That's essentially what's happening. The Star Spirits are the ones making the dreams, the Dream Depot only contains them. What does Mario and his friends have to do with any of this? When did the statement that they nobody dreams bigger than them ever imply that creates dreams on its own? That's completely headcanon. I do not need to give justification why the Dream Depot should stay as 2-B, that's not the point of this thread at all. The point of this segment is that Bowser scales above its creators. The Dream Depot is already accepted as 2-B so there's no need to give reasonings for this at all. If someone wants to know why it is then that's fine, but you're trying to argue that it isn't which does require a seperate CRT. Just keep in mind the same points have already been brought up.

Inheritor of time. The two I am referring to is time from its beginning to its end. Culex inherits all of time, what are you not understanding? Being the ruler over all of creation gives me supporting evidence of Culex being Low 2-C, that is not the full justification. As well as the statement of being the master of time and space. With being the inheritor of time, being the ruler over all creation, and being stated to be the master of time and space is enough evidence.
 
I disagree with the infinite speed point; Prima Guides are generally not reliable sources, so I'd say that time is in fact not erased. Even then, it could be a weird form of "erasing time" where people can still move for whatever reason, like when characters stop time in most media.

And surely we wouldn't give Mario a higher speed rating than Sonic, right?...
 
What is the issue with using the Prima Guide? Why aren't we allowed to use them? You need to give actual reasoning as to why we cannot use them. Your second point is headcanon and a huge assumption, I might as well say any timeless void =/= infinite speed now because of this. That's a false equivalence, characters stopping time is with their own power, so usually they aren't affected by it.
 
Prima Guides aren't reliable sources for game lore since, as far as I know, Prima didn't work with the developers for info and stuff. Heck, they even get gameplay stuff wrong sometimes.
 
You have yet to show actual evidence of the Prima Guide contracting anything. If The Void was going to destroy everything, then time should be included as well. Making the guide still reliable.
 
It's not that it contradicts anything, it's that I think it's a bad source for canon. Prima Guides should be taken with a grain of salt.

I'd honestly rather go with what the game itself shows, which is a universe that's been blanked out rather than literally destroyed.
 
Heyyyy
Well, for one, a Prima Guide claims that Mario AND Luigi saved Daisy in Super Mario Land, which is patently untrue. And EVEN THEN, since there was still stuff in the Sammer Kingdom, there's no way even space was actually destroyed.
 
I dunno. Sometimes Prima Guides are the only sources we have for certain things.

Besides, that's not a feat. It's just a backstory/lore element. The Prima Guides are how we even know Rosie shielded Mario and Peach from the Biv Crunch and Rebirth in the first place. The guides and supplementary material are how we know BJ created all the enemies -- or most of the enemies -- that you encounter on Delfino Island.

I think that, like statements, they should be taken with scrutiny. If the Guide states a description or summary of what happened during a cutscene/gameplay, most of the time? They're usually used. As far as I know, that's a guide for Mario Kart that only mentioned that one time. You can easily write that off as a mistake, but even then, so what? The context of describing lore and getting one detail wrong doesn't equate to the context of describing events that transpire in-game. Besides, lore is subject to retcons and changes, so that's just not a good example regardless.
 
The issue with using that is its not the Super Paper Mario Prima Guide. I don't care if they made a small mistake in a different one for Mario Kart, they as of now did not screw up on Super Paper Mario.
 
I mean, if the Prima guides were consistently inaccurate then you'd have a point. But if that's the only problem then the SPM Prima guide is fine and usable.

We've discussed there being stuff left over in the World of Nothing, but that's likely aesthetics as it's stated on more than one occasion that the entire world was destroyed, and the place is even called the World of Nothing.
 
But there's clearly a few things still left in it, and those things still have collision. Actions (or in this case, visuals) speak louder than words. "Destroying the world" does not imply destroying spacetime itself, only what's on it. "World" does not equal "Universe". I imagine it to be like erasing a drawing, leaving a blank white paper with only vague remnants of what used to be there (befitting of the game's "Paper" nature).
 
I've already discussed about the small things left over after traveling back inside of the void. Destroying all of the worlds, existence, and dimensions definitely can refer to time and space as well because the void is destroying everything. Only this time we have an actual statement that includes time. World does equal universe in this context. Certain worlds are stated to have infinfite space and each world is reached by a dimensional door, meaning you don't get there by normal means.
 
You can't write off things as "aesthetics" just because they conflict with dialogue. Perhaps Super Dimentio is bluffing to a degree in order to intimidate Mario and co.; Dimentio is quite manipulative, so I wouldn't put it past him to do something like such.
 
The thing is dimentio wasn't bluffing. Plus to my knowledge I have never seen mario intimidated by any enemie or boss he's faced through the game.
 
Read what I said above please.

What implies Super Dimentio was bluffing? If the Void was already stated to destroy everything, his statement only backs it up. He isn't manipulative during the final battle because he finally got the Chaos Heart, the thing he wanted.
 
I'm saying that since Mario was never before shown or implied to have some sort of move-through-void power, I feel that the more reasonable explanation for what we see in the game is that the spacetime of the Sammer Kingdom was preserved.
 
...Ooooohhhhh, I see. That makes a lot more sense. (I still think space-time is still present in the World of Nothing, but I understand the situation better now.)
 
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