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Why would Goku not be 2-C he just scales to ultimate gohan by fighting him inside Buuhan and Ultimate Gohan downscales to that 2-C feat?
I kinda don’t see the point of this crt unless I’m missing something
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Majin Buu Saga Toei Scaling Revision
- Thread starter Stefano4444
- Start date
I kinda don’t see the point of this crt unless I’m missing something
Eden_Warlock99
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Goku beat the clone Ultimate Gohan while in SSJ, while he fought Kid Buu while in SSJ2/SSJ3
So we can't downscale Gohan from Goku
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Ik he beat Ultimate Gohan while in SSJ downscaling 500x which is still 2-C also for Kid Buu didn’t he overpower him in SSJ with the spirit bomb?
Edit: Well technically lower due to the 1/100th stuff so he’d downscale 5x
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SS3 Goku is 2-C, we don’t know about SS2 SS1, base.
And scaling is all screwed up too.
If Buuhan is the baseline for 2-C what reason do we have for Ultimate Gohan characters and below to be that tier, it’s not like we have any explicit multiplier/amps for absorbtions to say he doesn’t get far too strong for any reliable downscaling
there is also the issue of having to do away with Post Vegito scaling/ making Goku SS3 2-C from the start, namely that SS2 Goku is still only at base Gotenks pre RoSAT levels making SS3 a 12,500,000x multiplier since it surpasses all scaling chains.
And scaling is all screwed up too.
If Buuhan is the baseline for 2-C what reason do we have for Ultimate Gohan characters and below to be that tier, it’s not like we have any explicit multiplier/amps for absorbtions to say he doesn’t get far too strong for any reliable downscaling
there is also the issue of having to do away with Post Vegito scaling/ making Goku SS3 2-C from the start, namely that SS2 Goku is still only at base Gotenks pre RoSAT levels making SS3 a 12,500,000x multiplier since it surpasses all scaling chains.
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Dragon Ball Z Anime: AP and Speed Scaling
Redoing the toei scaling accounting for 10x of grade 3
Perfect Cell is much stronger than Goku and Gohan, so >30.96 KiloFOE and 219 quadrillion FTL
Perfect Cell becomes enraged and enters a buff state similar to Grade 3 trunks , so >309.6 Kilofoe and < 219 quadrillion FTL
SS2 Gohan at 50% capacity was able to defeat Super Perfect Cell, so > 619.2 KiloFOE and 2.19 quintillion FTL. Every other SS2 is much stronger
Pikkon curbstomped Super Perfect Cell, so > 309.6 KiloFOEand 2.19 quintillion FTL
Goku as a Super Saiyan can fight equally with Pikkon, so 309.6 KiloFOE and 2.19 quintillion FTL
Goku as a SS2 was noted by Majin Vegeta to have surpassed Cell Games SS2 Gohan, so >3.096 MegaFOEand 21.9 quintillion FTL
Base Gotenks is stronger than SS2 Vegeta, so > >3.096 MegaFOE and 21.9 quintillion FTL
Innocent Buu stomped Base Gotenks, so > >3.096 MegaFOE and 21.9 quintillion FTL
Gotenks increased his power tremendously in the RoSaT, so > 154.5 MegaFOE and 1.095 sextillion FTL
SSJ Gotenks is 50x stronger, so > 77.25 GigaFOE and 54.75 sextillion FTL
SS3 Goku shook the afterlife during the events of Fusion Reborn so 3-C+ and 54.75 sextillion FTL
SS3 Gotenks was match for Super Buu whom Goku initially claimed stood no chance against so 3-B and 547.5 sextillion FTL
Ultimate Gohan was a match for Super Buu who massively increased his power by absorbing SS3 Gotenks, so At least 3-B and 547.5 sextillion FTL
After absorbing Ultimate Gohan and losing himself in a rage, Super Buu threatened to destroy all of the dimensions within the DB universe so 2-C and 273.75 septillion FTL
Despite Buuhans increases in power Vegito was firmly superior to him even as SS1 so 2-C and 273.75 septillion FTL
After entering Buus body and defusing, Goku could fight against a perfect copy of Ultimate Gohan whilst in base form, and could turn SSJ to quickly overwhelm him, so At least 3-B and 27.375 septillion FTL
Kid Buu is repeatedly stated to be the strongest Buu of them all, so 2-C and 273.75 septillion FTL
SS3 Goku could match Kid Buu blow for blow, so 2-Cand 273.75 septillion FTL
Major changes
- Grade 3 is a 10x multiplier and SS2 is a total 500x increase as a result
-Fat buu does no longer scales to SS3 Goku in any capacity due to explicit statements of him holding back against him
-SS3 Gotenks, Buutenks, Ultimate Gohan, and Super Buu no longer backscale to Buuhan as his mergers have unknown levels of amplification through hard feats making the previous assumption of additive increases unreliable for scaling.
- Goku is taken to have grown in power massively after defusing, but there is no back scaling between SS forms besides SS1 to base, so he only upscales from Ultimate Gohan up until SS3 where he is shown to be an even match for Kid Buu
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Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan downscale from Buuhan which is why they’re 2-C
Eden_Warlock99
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I heard that Toei might make SSJ Grade 4 a x500 multiplier, but I can't seem to find the proof for such
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Based on what exactly ?
The point made in this thread is that backscaling them from a firmly superior version of Buu is faulty.
-Super Buu makes a 2 meter wide hole into another space time
-Ultimate Gohan stomps Super Buu with extreme ease
-Super Buu absorbs Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan is a only match for him initially
-Super Buu absorbs Gohan and becomes even stronger than before
- Buuhan enters an enraged state which we know = massive increases in power and threatens to destroy the Space time of the entire macrocosm.
Feats wise, it’s dumb because it’s practically the differencebetween 9-B and 3-A in terms of comparative space time levels of destruction portrayed
Scaling wise we have no idea how strong absorbing people actually makes Buu, leave alone blatant rage powerups which is what allowed him to perform the 2-C feat to begin with.
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Well there’s a guides that would make grade 4 x500 for manga and anime but there’s mostly guides for anime this video may help
Pretty sure absorbing people is accepted as adding their power in joules onto your own since that’s what’s on the Z manga scaling chain
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Because that’s the low end assumption for upscaling power mergers, that logic is literally never applied in reverse unless we have hard numbers such as SS1 - base or Kaioken multipliers which have explicit 50, 20 and 10x amps over base forms
Buus absorbtions were never stated to just be additional increases, Super Buu himself is a demonstrable >>500x increase over what Goku originally deemed sufficient to defeat Fat boo ( pre RoSAT SS1 Gotenks)
Buus absorbtions were never stated to just be additional increases, Super Buu himself is a demonstrable >>500x increase over what Goku originally deemed sufficient to defeat Fat boo ( pre RoSAT SS1 Gotenks)
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Makes sense Fat Buu should scale to the 4-A feat though
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How does Goku scale above Gohan when he’s weaker than super buu?
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Toei contradictions, Kid Buu is stated 3 times by different sources narrator and characters to be > Buuhan.
Add scene of Goku fighting Ultimate Gohan copy with verbatim same level of power as the real one and defeating him using only SS1, you end up with 4 evidences pointing towards Kid Buu just plainly being the strongest.
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I remember as well
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Ok? That doesn’t answer my question though.
Guacamolefletcher
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Don't agree, Vegeta blatantly gets stronger as he can contend with quantifiably stronger opponents way better.
Do not agree, literally everything we know about vegito SSJ1 and Goku SSJ3 is that they're finitely stronger than base form. It makes no sense to gatekeep the 4d-ness to their transformations when we blatantly know they're finite. SSJ1 is literally 50x, accepted through and through.
Also, for super buu versions becoming literally infinitely stronger on a whim, it makes very little sense. Buu absorbing gohan shouldn't be an infinite amp.
Also, fat buu literally contends with ssj3 goku if you wanna make the backscaling arguments.
Guacamolefletcher
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Because Buuhan is literally a weaker version of buu with gohan absorbed, as an amp?
Guacamolefletcher
Username Only- 2,012
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makes no sense for there to be this infinite gap here.
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You say this as if the Toei scaling makes sense in the first place.
Guacamolefletcher
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It can be rationalized, but this isn't the way. Also, this isn't really a counter-argument, and characters having crazy power boosts isn't an excuse for our own scaling of it to be incoherent.
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???
Buuhan is the second strongest Buu, after kid buu, why would Super buu scale to his feats?
Buus absorbtions are verifiable amps exceeding >500x multipliers, there is no reason to back scale to weaker versions of Buu.
Guacamolefletcher
Username Only- 2,012
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there's no reason to think they're infinite either, and them being infinite makes even less sense
Guacamolefletcher
Username Only- 2,012
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Disagree, cause goku, when he gets out, can whoop up super buu
- Interpreting the inside Buu fight as meaning Base Goku/Vegeta>= Gohan/Gotenks that is obviously not sound with the narrative, the scene above in the OP proves that Goku up to then was still keeping himself below Fat Buu and Vegeta was under the impression they weren't even Fat Buu level, let alone being stronger than Gohan and Gotenks in Base. What's more, Goku (pre Kid Buu fight) and Vegeta were still scared of fighting Super Buu (who's literally weaker than Gohan and Gotenks) and said he would kill them individually.
The Post Division clone scaling should just be nuked entirely.
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You know except actual shown feats and the fact absorbtions boost power massively, keep up with that logic and you might as well make kid Goku 2-C because he sure as hell isn’t infinity times stronger in-Universe as an adult.
feats take precedence, you’re trying to compare two Buus one which made a 1 meter-wide hole in space time vs one that threatened to do it to the entire universe and pretend they are close in power.
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Isn’t Majin Buu described as having bottomless strength and thr angrier he is the stronger he gets? Mixed in with Gohans latent potential and sheer anger how he made the universal vice shout?
Stefano4444
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- Thread starter
- #107
I mean by the same logic we should just scale everyone Pre DBS to 2-C as well.
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I really wonder what people would be more in favour of; making everyone in DBZ 2-C, or removing 2-C entirely.
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Yeah it’s implied buu was getting stronger. Base Vegito shouldn’t scale either.
Episode 269 base Vegito struggled but eventually pushed back Buuhan’s energy ball.
In response Buu smiled alongside Vegito and even after watching him push this attack back, he stated he was stronger and that he’d win. Whether this was Base Vegitos full power and Buuhan was far from his unknown, but to prove he was stronger then Buuhan he went ssj. Ideally if he wanted to prove he was superior he would have done so in his base form if he could, which seems like a concession on my end.
Episode 270, Buu gets absolutely destroyed by Vegito. Vegito taunts his power and everything and just dogs him.
After a while Buuhan gets angry and Dende claims that him being angry is resulting in this sudden power up. The power up even makes Vegito worried and after trying to stop it the first time fails and is forced to power up even more, meaning Buu had temporarily surpassed that Vegito.
So with all this in mind why would base Vegito scale or regular Buuhan? When this power is literally a powerup from his normal state? Not even Buuhan understands what happened.
Episode 269 base Vegito struggled but eventually pushed back Buuhan’s energy ball.
In response Buu smiled alongside Vegito and even after watching him push this attack back, he stated he was stronger and that he’d win. Whether this was Base Vegitos full power and Buuhan was far from his unknown, but to prove he was stronger then Buuhan he went ssj. Ideally if he wanted to prove he was superior he would have done so in his base form if he could, which seems like a concession on my end.
Episode 270, Buu gets absolutely destroyed by Vegito. Vegito taunts his power and everything and just dogs him.
After a while Buuhan gets angry and Dende claims that him being angry is resulting in this sudden power up. The power up even makes Vegito worried and after trying to stop it the first time fails and is forced to power up even more, meaning Buu had temporarily surpassed that Vegito.
So with all this in mind why would base Vegito scale or regular Buuhan? When this power is literally a powerup from his normal state? Not even Buuhan understands what happened.
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I'd say Base Vegito is still pretty comparable to Buuhan.
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Yeah I don’t disagree with this but I was pointing out that the giant boost he had wasn’t a result of his normal strength but s rage boost that powered him up significantly.
It wouldn’t scale to his normal self nor any of the people he absorbed as it isn’t a result of their strength but his rage.
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Why are we assuming Buuhan's rage caused a sudden infinite amp when there has been no precedent for this in the past? And either way, Kid Buu would still scale above this via his statements. Also, for those that have the issue of "why should lower forms be 2-C?" it's not as simple as that. It's downscaling. Multiple characters can be in the same tier with a clear scaling chain involved.
As for Goku and Vegeta, I disagree with the removal of their Post-Vegito Division keys. They clearly got much stronger, as they were beating perfect clones of Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks as regular Super Saiyans. Not only that, but they did this while being reduced to less than 1/100 of their power.
So yeah, overall I disagree with the OP
As for Goku and Vegeta, I disagree with the removal of their Post-Vegito Division keys. They clearly got much stronger, as they were beating perfect clones of Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks as regular Super Saiyans. Not only that, but they did this while being reduced to less than 1/100 of their power.
So yeah, overall I disagree with the OP
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When the world needed him most, he returned.
What do you think of Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks losing their 2-C?
Tbh I don't hate the idea, but still odd.
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Not necessarily. Just Buu Saga Goku and Vegeta in this case. Super Saiyan forms are explicitly finite boosts. Training from one saga to the next, you could at least argue such an infinite jump, but not when it's a set of finite transformation boosts for a character of a single saga.
Damage, I've seen you do this a lot, and it's really gotta stop especially given your high position. I know this is a part of your tirade of "Dragon Ball is such a wanked verse and everyone just wants to keep making it stronger with reckless abandon," I've seen you make those comments several times before. You seriously need to stop poisoning the well, especially when you're not contributing to the thread beyond offhanded statements (as I've seen looking through the thread).
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Disagree. Buu's power boosts work via absorption. He's adding their power to his own, so they themselves should really be 2-C
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Because it’s fiction and these power ups can be any degree they want to be as long as it pushes a narrative? If Buuhan beforehand has no reason to be at this level and he suddenly reaches this level from a rage boost then we assume he grew this much stronger.
No one in this thread claimed kid Buu doesn’t scale, what are you talking about.
Fusion dance is directly referenced to be finite levels of power increase yet goten and trunks fusion increases their level many infinite times over?
Why does this matter? They are still stated weaker than Buuhan and when fighting him were on the verge of dying several times. Even running away from him.
The problem is the inconsistency in the narrative.
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Makes sense.
Plus, Goku said that Buutenks defusing caused Goku to lose a third of his power IIRC, although that may be dub-only, so it's clearly a finite number.
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I don't get this because you acknowledge Kid Buu scales, yet you fail to recognize that this would cause Goku and Vegeta to scale to 2-C by default (both their SSJ2 forms could delay Kid Buu).
Also this is why the key is called "Post-Vegito Division." Their fight against Buuhan is a non-factor
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I never had a problem with Vegeta and Goku scaling, did I ever say that?
ok? My main problem is the other characters scaling to it.
