Well, he was stated to have stopped trains in the past to Wraith and not only failed to stop a single-car train but got pinned under it. He also had difficulty with the roller coaster at Coney Island with one arm, compared to moving armored trucks, small semis, and pulling an entire skyscraper crane in the first game. Miles having better feats is also true though.
How old is Peter in the second game again? 25? Seems a bit odd from a realistic standpoint for him to be falling out of his "prime". Not trying to counter anything said, just saying it's odd.
There is quite literally zero evidence Peter was nerfed LMAO
People will sooner cope and try to argue Peter was nerfed than accept that Miles can have better feats than him (
I think it has to do with how people were generally only exposed to Mile's existence through Spider-Verse, which blasted him into mainstream culture. So since Peter has had decades to gain a following behind his character, people will try to come up with "explanations" as to why he falters because people are nostalgic.
Dawg.......Just let it go, he wasn't even jobbing, Miles just has better feats
Dawg.......Just let it go, he wasn't even jobbing, Miles just has better feats
JOBBING
Yeah to add to this, the fact that Peter was still holding back against Kraven despite Venom yelling in his head “kill Kraven. Rip him apart.” Is evident enough that he’s not gonna be going all out against Miles who he actually cares about.
It only looks like the bell is useful for stunning Peter momentarily to get extra hits on him. Because even without using it, Peter gets damaged. And it's not just a game play thing, because unless my ears are playing tricks on me, I can hear Peter grunt when he's hit in the cutscenes. And right before Peter starts to come to his senses halfway through, we see Miles start to overtake him in clashes.
It doesn't look like Peter is holding back here, at least from the dialogue. Well, until halfway through the fight at least where Peter starts coming to his senses. Because before that, he's venting every frustration he has, and is quite pissed off.
Could make sense, just want more thoughts on it
I'm honestly tired of this. You bring up the same points that don't mention anything that isn't debunked, and I hate repeating myself. We already discussed this. The demon is noncorporeal unless it is attacking. Peter kicking through a ghost isn't a feat. Idk how many times I asked you to watch the fight, and you clearly still haven't.
Are you aware that the context of Li's fight with Miles was a fight to the death; otherwise, Kraven was going to kill him? He refused to let Miles kill him. In terms of the narrative, he would be fighting harder here than against Peter, clearly showcasing new skills at that. All this talk about chains is headcanon.
Miles's durability is equal to his venom strikes. Anyone who challenges his durability is >= Miles's venom. Therefore, Miles in base downscales from Kraven, BS Peter, and Venom, who Miles could fight without constantly using venom. Idk how you concluded that Miles and Peter have a comparable base.
These points are incoherent. You say Peter "decimated an entire hunter camp then Kraven himself" and completely ignore all that Miles did. He fights off a small army of Hunters, gets drugged, wakes up, does it again, then fights Li, and something off-screen happens with Kraven. You also ignore Miles knocking Kraven out with a single venom punch, while just seconds before, he was crushing Peter's head, proving he is still a black suit threat even while weakened.
Yes... let's use Miles trying to get away from the Lizard in WATER as justification for anything. You do realize that Peter didn't fight Connors in his natural habitat either, nor has he fought anyone else IN WATER, for that matter? Not only that, you ignore that Peter stated he has already fought Lizard before in the same video you linked.
Venom is just Venom. Idk why he has an added form that's better than himself when it's the same power but with wings.
This is not stated anywhere. This is not implied anywhere. This is not suggested anywhere. Unless you find a scan that explicitly states that is what it represents, this is headcanon - it will not be addressed further.
This doesn’t prove the scaling chain further, it just proves he was weakened and in no condition to fight. Important to note that Li very well may just be a Symbiote-level combatant, considering he completely negged SSM’s tendrils when he tried to attack him, and possess the lifting strength to overpower Venom’s tendrils and numerous Symbiote clones that would’ve taken down Base Peter and Miles with a single blow, as well as keep them out with a barrier. Also, this “narrative” argument is absolutely redundant. First, he wants Harry, then, he wants Lizard, then he wants Li and Miles to see who’s worthy of him, then he wants Peter, then he wants Venom. It very clearly shifts multiple times throughout the story, acting like he was solely interested in Peter is disingenuous.
It’s ironic how you, again, accuse others of not having any knowledge of them game, yet purposefully cut the context of which:
Same points as before, none of this suggests any actual inferiority to the Lizard, and the new points mentioned.
Bruh, I totally forgot Li's passive shield did that
You literally provide no evidence for this claim whatsoever. You haven’t “debunked” anything because you haven’t even provided proof for your claim. You’re saying in this video clip the demom is physically attacking Peter but suddenly, magically shifts into being non-corporal the moment Peter dodges his swing. What are you talking about, that makes no sense whatsoever and is completely unfounded. You’re just making things up to fit your narrative.
Are you aware that Li was also fighting with intent to kill against Peter as well? You know, because he was literally in the way of him finally getting to enact his revenge against the man who caused the death of both his parents, the whole basis of his motivation to commit all those atrocities in the first place. Yeah I think he was trying plenty hard enough to kill Peter, so you’re bringing up a distinction without meaning. Peter was also injured and holding back when he beat Li, unlike Miles who was fighting with clear intent to kill.
Uh no, you don’t have to greater than or even equal to Miles’ venom in order to be able to challenge his durability. Case in point, Miles’ venom is explicitly>Rhino’s strength, but Rhino is still able to harm Miles despite being weaker than his venom attacks. He still scales to the value but backscales because he’s weaker than it, which is exactly the case for base Peter and Miles.
You know scorpion cut Miles to get the poison into his system, right? Also Miles wasn’t being affected by the poison at that point in time. We know this because we see the exact moment when the poison starts to affect Miles. If Miles is strong enough to the point of being able to overpower Kraven, who can manhandle Scorpion, then Miles should have no issue struggling out of his grip.
The fact that you both get things wrong and ignore what Peter did himself is both very ironic and extremely hypocritical. Peter single-handedly fights the Lizard, and his body is then made to continue fighting that “small army of Hunters” before Miles even arrived. Miles then stealths a handful of hunters, fights Li, and then loses to Kraven. Peter is the one who actually fought that small army of Hunters at Kraven’s base, Miles only stealthed couple after waking up. I didn’t bring any of that up because it’s not needed, there’s no evidence Miles was facing any lasting exhaustion from after he woke up, so there’s no point in mentioning what he did since it doesn't impact the point I made. Can you provide evidence Miles was suffering from lasting weakness after he woke up? Because if not, this point is irrelevant.
Because your own points make legitimately no sense and rely totally on gameplay mechanics while dismissing what actually happens in the cutscenes.
Well here’s Rhino damaging Miles. (Literally one shot him lmao).
Wow….whatever could the guy with ELECTRICAL POWERS possibly to do someone in water? Nothing comes to mind right. You also ignore how the Lizard is a lot bigger now than before. This also doesn’t change the fact that Peter is directly shown to be able to dominate the Lizard while Miles doesn’t show that level of capability.
Because he clearly gets noticeably higher and changes after his mutation which justifies another one like that.
I literally gave you a direct image. Martin’s inner demon is chained up. That’s not a theory, that’s not a statement, that’s an objective fact.
It does, please address my points because I directly responded to this. Martin “weakening” Miles to the point of utter exhaustion while Peter is able to easily overwhelm Kraven who’s superior to Li just proves the point Peter>Miles. Miles gets exhausted by fighting Li and Peter is able to dominate Kraven. The showing is superior.
Conveniently ignoring how Martin Li’s power is directly described as a weakness towards the symbiote. It’s kinda how we got Anti-Venom in the first place, the thing that kills symbiotes. Yeah nice try trying to skirt right past that whole point.
Kraven (in reference to Spider-Man): “My final Hunt.”
Miles disagrees, “he doesn’t want to be Lizard food” remember? And you’re arguing Miles is superior to the Lizard, which he has no showing of. Since you have failed to provide proof of your point or address the argument levied against you, it will remain as headcanon and will not be further addressed.
Inaccurate (not mentioning Li’s power is a weakness to the symbiotes).
The demon can physically interact when attacking and be non-corporeal when receiving attacks; it's fiction. Your argument from incredulity is meaningless against what everybody can see.
Do you have evidence for your claims, or are you writing a new script? You're comparing a free man who just wanted Norman to pay and Peter out of the way against a caged animal who tried to escape and realizes killing Miles is the only way he stays alive. Also, Miles was just talking a big game because he was angry. If you don't cherry-pick the one line in the dialogue where Miles responds to Li saying Spider-Man doesn't kill, he states that he wants Li to feel pain. And when he has Li at his mercy, he lets him go.
If Miles doesn't break his bones using venom strikes, he is at least as durable as the force he puts out. Rhino also doesn't go down with a singular venom strike. I'm also not comparing the Miles that fought Rhino to the Miles nearly a year into the future.
The poison doesn't have to be in the body to work; Scorpion can also use it as a projectile because it works on contact. And you ignore context a lot. If Kraven, who has a stronger immune system than Miles, was affected instantly, what makes you think Miles also wasn't affected instantly just because he later suffered from hallucinogenic effects? Unless you think a 2-inch cut is enough to put Miles to his knees, in which case, boy, do I have a few games worth of feats to show you.
I was never arguing "Who's more tired" so idc about what you have to say here. Your original point claimed someone said Miles was stronger than BS Peter (nobody said that). You're trying to compare the stamina of an entire symbiote with the stamina of Miles, who doesn't have a symbiote yet performed identical feats.
How is it gameplay mechanics when the fight is designed so the only way you can initiate damage is by dropping objects on him? That's called the plot.
Tell me more about the consistency of Rhino harming Miles in this scene when he clearly ran both Miles and Peter through a giant gas plant explosion that they both tanked. Tell me more about the consistency of that entire scene when Rhino literally bounces Miles off the ground and flings him, then trucks him, and he's fine. Tell me how it makes sense that Rhino KO's Phin after dropping her like 30 feet when here she dives down 6+ stories at speed and is fine. Do you think outliers are your ally?
He had to use both arms and was dropped to his knees. Clearly overpowered. Not that Peter states Rhino is stronger than him, and he has to fight smart because he's not winning with brute strength or anything.
Tell me how an elderly man going no more than 50mph is knocking over an 8-ton mech. Tell me how the plot is gameplay mechanics.
Neither Peter nor Miles would beat Lizard with 0 struggle. Now, what happens when Lizard grabs either one and swims to the bottom of the river? Common sense dictates neither of them would take that fight in the water.
Still the same symbiote, just with wings.
There's a thing called a no-limits fallacy. Notice how Venom never gives a damn about Peter's Anti-Venom suit, essentially treating it like it's made of cotton. Meanwhile, Peter feels pain and flinches; all the while, he's only interacting with Li's aura, not even his physical body.
Stop being dishonest, you know exactly that you were implying that makes Li weaker, stop ratting and address the point.
A stronger Li, with more shown hax and abilities. This was proven earlier.
That’s why I mentioned the second point about lifting strength and him punching back the army, I didn’t ignore anything, I offered another avenue in case you tried to rat, which you did.
A focus on Peter, and yet it isn’t Peter that does, it’s Venom, and still doesn’t address the numerous people Kraven found interest in who Kraven specifically targeted hoping they could be the one. And despite this, despite your perception of the narrative, Miles hits him with a Venom blast so powerful that Kraven literally out cold, and doesn’t wake up until the Symbiote has changed hosts.
Yeah? Why would he want to get bit? Why does him wanting to not get bit imply inferiority? You’ve shown no argument that Miles would actually be ineffective, despite being toe-to-toe with the very guy who beat him up, while holding back.
Offered a second route of scaling, which you were too disingenuous to address.
And yet he also captured Connors, and many others in pursuit of those who he believed worthy, with in the end, Peter wasn’t the one who did, but you were ratting too much to respond to that.
Actively avoided him, yet Peter told Miles to search for him, Miles dodged him casually, and he offered to join Pete, but you were too dishonest to counter that.
I said Li’s not stronger, stop trying to strawman and putting words in my mouth. And I did address the point, you have yet to refute it. Li’s power feeds off of and grows stronger based on his anger and hatred. You arguing Li got a lot stronger doesn’t go in line with the way his power works since we know his power grows stronger off his anger, which he was feeling a hell of a lot of in SM1, but has since regretted in SM2. This point can further be supported by how Li’s inner demon, which is the basis for his powers, is both chained up and noticeably damaged in SM2 compared to SM1.
Literally has nothing to do at all with what I said whatsoever. You said Li exhausted Miles, well Peter dominated Kraven who’s superior to Li. The showing is superior, how about you actually address that point instead of regurgitating your talking points.
No you did, you ignored Li’s ability being a counter. You made it seem like Li was strong enough himself to push off Spider-Man’s tendrils when in actuality it was due to his power being a weakness to venom, not a case for Li scaling to SM like you made it seem. “Another avenue” is a deceptive and dishonest framework being used.
I literally did address the point you’re making about Kraven showing interest in other people. This is yet again another example of you not addressing my arguments and instead dishonestly claiming I haven’t responded to yours. I responded to this point by citing how Kraven may show interest in others (because he’s trying to find a worthy opponent to take his life), but he sees BS Spider-Man as the one who’s gonna do it. He sees him as “special” compared to the rest. That’s why he says things like “Track the Lizard, the Spider is mine.” And things like “My final hunt.” When looking at Peter because while he may show interest in the Lizard, he sees more value in symbiote Peter as the one who’s special above all the rest. This point is entirely backed by the narrative of the story.
Actively running away from an opponent because you’re scared they’re gonna kill you implies inferiority. I can’t believe something as incredibly basic as that has to be spelled out for you to understand.
“Track the Lizard. The spider is mine.” Literally ignoring the whole point I just made in favor of just being toxic. Ok buddy.
Do you know what the term “dishonesty” means? Or are you literally not reading the arguments I’ve given. You say I’m “too dishonest to counter Miles offering to join Peter”, really? So what’s this:
That’s me countering your point about Miles wanting to tag team Peter, explaining how the point is irrelevant to the argument I’m making. You’re just being dishonest about the arguments being made now because you offered no rebuttal.
Your problem, is that you’re not actually responding to any of my points. You’re just ignoring the argument entirely to suit your idea. You did this several times in this very post which I point out.
“Argument from incredulity” is not when I ask you to provide proof for your claims lmao. Ever heard of Hitchen’s razor? “What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.” You have provided no evidence the demon operates on this “physical when attacking, non-physical when receiving” basis and as such, the claim can be dismissed as is.
Do I have evidence that Li was fighting with intent to kill against Peter? Yes, yes I do in fact. Li’s hatred for Osborn was literally the whole basis for him to commit all his atrocities in the first game. That hatred was the thing fueling his inner demon and feeding into his anger, man was a whole supervillain last game, yes he was clearly trying hard enough there to kill Spider-Man. You bring in no evidence Li is trying harder between one interaction over the other, you’re just again spouting headcanon to further your agenda.
More like you’re cherry picking which pieces of dialogue you like while dismissing the rest. Miles could’ve just wanted to kill Li but ultimately chose not to when given the actual opportunity. I don’t know why you have to cherry pick which lines you keep and which lines you dismiss when each position can exist simultaneously and there’s no issue. Miles could’ve just wanted to kill Li when fighting him but ultimately decides not to after he entered his head.
Literally nothing to do with my point whatsoever. I’m responding to your claims. You said you need to be equal to or greater than in strength than Miles’ venom attacks to be able to challenge Miles’ durability. I refute that claim by showing how Rhino who is explicitly weaker than Miles’ venom attacks can and has challenged Miles’ durability. Thereby proving your point wrong.
No it’s you who ignores context and is just flat out wrong. Kraven wasn’t affected by Scorpion’s poison instantly, in fact he’s not affected by Scorpion’s poison at all so I have no idea what you’re talking about. You’re just completely wrong because your point is made on an unfounded basis.
I mean based on what you said, you must think so since Scorpion clearly challenged their durability there right. He pierces right into Kraven in fact lol.
Well you’re wrong in that. And no, my point was that Miles gets weakened and exhausted by Li while Peter easily dominates Kraven, a superior opponent to Li. That’s not an “identical feat” as Peter has much clear and better showings that Miles does like his performance against the Lizard and his performance against Kraven vs Miles’ performance against Li.
No that’s called gameplay mechanics, Peter has shown that he’s capable of knocking Rhino and contending with him in AP, the idea that Peter “can’t do damage to Rhino” only comes from a gameplay mechanic designed in a boss fight. Plot is the actual cutscenes, gameplay mechanics are the design features in boss fights.
Your own links prove my point. Miles literally clutches his side in pain after Rhino slams him in the ground and flings him. Miles then gets slammed by Rhino where he clearly exclaims out in pain from the blow. Just because Miles gets back up after doesn’t mean he wasn’t harmed. But please, tell me more about how Miles was actually acting there and was just faking being in pain. Or is that video clip that you sent me for the argument you made another outlier too?
No, overpowering him would mean pushing through his guard he put up. Overpowering him would be the equivalent of what Miles did to Rhino with his venom strike. Peter dead stopping Rhino’s blow means he scales in AP no matter how much you’d like to deny it. Rhino can also be stronger than Peter but still have Peter scale, just like how Miles’ venom can be stronger than Rhino but Rhino can still scale.
Because Spider-Man was the one who threw him at him. You know, the guy with super strength? Your argument from incredulity is meaningless.
Low-mid diff. Peter low-mid diffs the Lizard. Like legitimately low-mid diffs. The biggest trouble the Lizard gave Peter was from the sound. Otherwise, like if he had the Anti-Venom suit, he had Lizard pinned by the very first round. And that was the time Peter was holding back trying to reason with the Lizard too no less. What happens when Lizard grabs them and drags them to the bottom of the water? Well Peter could just easily break out of Lizard’s grip and overwhelm him with his superior strength so he doesn’t have to worry about that. But since you brought up the argument, clearly you think that’s something Miles has to worry about, so you’re just proving my point that Peter’s showing is superior. Common sense dictates the guy running away from the Lizard isn’t strong enough to overwhelm him compared to the guy the Lizard is running away from.
Venom in Peter’s body is the same symbiote in Harry’s body, but he clearly grows stronger. Venom can and has grown stronger.
Venom literally has to let go of Peter due to his anti-venom curing his Symbiote tendrils. Li’s aura is the thing the symbiotes are afraid of since it acts as a weakness to them, you’re leaving that big plot point out.
If you choose not to pay attention to detail, there's nothing I can do for you other than ignore you.
I hate having to repeat myself.
How am I cherry-picking when you're literally using the only line referencing anything about killing in a 20+ minute fight where Miles doesn't say anything about killing, but instead, punishment?
"Uh no, you don’t have to greater than or even equal to Miles’ venom in order to be able to challenge his durability."
His veins literally turn black as soon as he's stabbed, and it continues to visibly spread. More evidence that you don't know the game.
Can't believe you pressed send on this. Even if we were to agree that Scorpion scales, it creates a circular argument that is flawed at its foundations. I suggest you read the surface area section of durability.
"Your original point claimed someone said Miles was stronger than BS (BLACK SUIT) Peter (nobody said that)."
Plot. Argue with the writers. Peter stating he has to fight smart with Rhino because he can't win a slugfest falls directly in line with how the fight is designed.
Ok...so Miles going through all of that, then immediately getting back on his feats and smoking Rhino...versus being injured from being thrown at a headstone. You either don't know what an outlier is, or you're intentionally playing dumb.
Like when he was forced to the ground, unable to move, wide open to an attack from Scorpion. Otherwise, he was getting flattened? Ok.
Peter threw a multi-ton concrete pipe at Rhino while he was off-guard and only knocks him to one knee. He throws a 175-pound man at him, and he gets clotheslined. There's nothing consistent about that unless you try to make an outrageous argument. But Peter scales below Rhino by his own words and feats. None of this arguing changes that fact. I'm ending this Rhino talk here.
Yeah, no. Black suit Peter was in the water for 35 seconds and was running out of air trying to swim to the surface, and this was after Lizard started becoming human again. And this is with enhanced symbiote stamina. Had either one of them taken that fight in the water, more often than not, they're drowning. Thirty-five seconds without fighting means even less time when actively engaged with Lizard.
Nothing more needs to be said.
Venom has demonstrated resistance to Anti-Venom several times. It straight-up gets brushed off here. After he gets weakened at the particle accelerator, it begins to have a stronger effect, especially with Harry regaining control. Given that Anti-Venom is made with the remaining portion of the symbiote in Peter with 100% of Li's power, that is a feat for Li as well.
Seems like a good choice to do. Though I will say at this point that Miles is definitely above Peter in scaling chains, yeah?
You can’t assume he wasn’t holding back based on dialogue and displayed emotion when we know those dont mean anything. We have similar (probably even worse) dialogue and emotion against Kraven yet Kraven knew he was holding back. The grunting doesn’t matter especially when the damage was practically non existent, it merely caused pain to a Peter who was holding back. It’s similar to being pinched and feeling pain yet no real damage.
Yeah.
Well dialogue is a very big aspect when determining if someone is holding back or going balls out. Peter's dialogue in the fight very well indicates a venomous tone towards Miles, releasing his hate and frustrations. It wouldnt make much sense for him to hold back in his physicals while not doing so for his words. Also, I would like to say that the dialogue seems like a nice jab towards fans who keep trying to reject the idea that Miles is also Spider-Man
Doesn't Miles hold his own somewhat in the final fight against Venom while Peter with the Anti-Venom suit still gets thrown around most of the time? Well, I'm not going to talk about like I'm fully knowledgeable, just on stuff I've seen.
Again just as a reminder, Venom was literally yelling in Peter’s head to kill Kraven and rip him apart and Peter was still holding back against him despite him saying he would “tear him limb from limb.” So actually it is perfectly in line with BS Spider-Man to still be holding back even when his words are aggressive.
But was Peter being influenced by Venom to kill during his fight with Miles? I'd say there's a pretty big difference between spewing out hate, jealousy, and your addiction to the black suit rather than wanting to kill, considering that's something Peter would almost never rather do
More inclined to go with the 2nd scaling chain here from what you've already provided
Which looked as though he was about to do so before Mile's intervened. So during the fight, Peter is holding back, but after it, he starts letting loose the intent to kill, yeah? In which the cutscene leads into Miles vs Peter, yeah?
But if the fight does indeed lead into Miles vs Peter, after Peter begins to stop holding back and was ready to kill Kraven, wouldn't it be fair to say this would apply in his fight with miles? Right up until Miles starts talking some sense into Peter of course.
Oh yeah, didn't mean to imply anything that Miles is close enough to Venom in scaling. Don't know why I said what I said. But I was mainly using it as an example as to why Miles may as well scale above Symbiote Pete.
Even with the intention of killing he is still holding back as stated by Kraven just not as much as before. Prior to this fight he was holding back even more to a level Kraven could easily beat.
When Peter was going to kill Kraven he was going to break his neck or choke him. He wasn't punching any harder than he already was.
We didn't see how Kraven vs Miles went down.
