Maitreya’s 2024 Profile Revisions: Version Marvel’s Spider-Man 2!!

[Maitreya12]

Kraven outright says the opposite, and your word does not trump his. This is a battle to the death, Li very clearly shows new techniques in terms of abilities, swordplay, and more. I won’t argue this point further, the narrative suffices my point enough.

Kraven never states Li himself got “stronger.” Li also clearly shows that he chains himself when using the demon and only uses it for protective measures, unlike against Peter who he used directly against him to attack. And to completely gloss over the whole basis of the story of Kraven actively wanting Peter as he saw him as the worthy opponent and using Miles as bait to draw Peter out to him is what is a true disregard for the narrative and context of the story.

Cool, they can both be holding back. Miles is injured, so there’s more layers to him, and he still wins.

Cool Peter also just fought a Hunter’s base + Kraven and then immediately jumped to fighting Miles. Also the fact that Peter easily handles Kraven (while he’s abusing his weakness no less too) while Miles gets “exhausted” by Li, who’s inferior to Kraven demonstrably proves the point Peter scales above Miles.

I’m not going to repeat myself here, nothing you said addresses my points, either.

Because you’re bringing no point to address here. I’m saying Peter overpowers the Lizard, you bring in no counter point. Miles wanting to tag team the Lizard with Peter does nothing to go against my point because it doesn’t prove Miles can 1v1 the Lizard and out scale him like Peter does.

Put me in as a firm disagree for everything here.

No problemo.

 

[Maitreya12]

Miles should be in the same tier as Symbiote Peter for the reasons I listed above, and Kraven should be solidly Tier 7, not possibly.

Peter and Miles are both 8-A normally and while Peter is low 7-C with the symbiote suit and Miles can go up to High 7-C with Venom? You want regular Miles to be low 7-C without Venom?

 

[Dalesean027]

Miles should be in the same tier as Symbiote Peter for the reasons I listed above, and Kraven should be solidly Tier 7, not possibly.

Gotcha FYI the symbiote tiers are baseline low 7-C upscaling all of Miles's casual venom feats tho at the start of the game

 

[Maitreya12]

Peter still causes some damage, but he never puts Rhino down.

Hard stop right here. Peter causing some damage means he still scales regardless. I never mentioned he’s strong enough to put Rhino down, but the fact that he’s strong enough to block Rhino and harm him (yes throwing something at someone that causes them to fall on their back can be classified as harming) and cause some damage is basis enough for scaling. Peter still scales below Miles’ venom attacks.

What you’re complaining about is gameplay mechanics that make Rhino invincible unless stunned, in which if we’re going to be using gameplay mechanics here then yes literally every single random fodder thug scales to Peter and Miles, which was something you took issue with.

 

[Golden_Void]

Peter and Miles are both 8-A normally and while Peter is low 7-C with the symbiote suit and Miles can go up to High 7-C with Venom? You want regular Miles to be low 7-C without Venom?

Yes. He was fighting Venom without using Venom (lol) with every single blow. He also takes hits from Venom and one-shots a weakened Kraven (who was crushing Black Suit Peter's head in his hands just before this, so I don't wanna hear it). I'm aware that's a venom feat, but it's also a non-venom durability feat. And his power capacity has already been in High 7-C since his first game. Plus, what Dale said.

Hard stop right here. Peter causing some damage means he still scales regardless. I never mentioned he’s strong enough to put Rhino down, but the fact that he’s strong enough to block Rhino and harm him (yes throwing something at someone that causes them to fall on their back can be classified as harming) and cause some damage is basis enough for scaling. Peter still scales below Miles’ venom attacks.

What you’re complaining about is gameplay mechanics that make Rhino invincible unless stunned, in which if we’re going to be using gameplay mechanics here then yes literally every single random fodder thug scales to Peter and Miles, which was something you took issue with.

I need you to read what I type really closely. I never said he doesn't scale; I said the reasoning is flawed and skewed. He admitted Rhino is stronger than him, and the method that you use to harm him in the first place clearly demonstrates that. That's not gameplay mechanics. Peter would literally be incapable of harming Rhino otherwise. Just like Peter was incapable of harming Tombstone until he took his powers away.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

If people are scaling to Sandman, then why is anyone 8-A?

If not, what are they scaling to? The profiles confuse me.

Miles was fighting Venom at the end of the game and was clearly hurting him even without his own Venom powers. Miles in this game should downscale from whatever Venom scales to. If that puts him above base Peter then so be it, the Rhino fight was from a weaker Miles anyway.

If Base Peter has any feats in this game that would make him equal to Base Miles then they should both just downscale from Venom.

 

[Dalesean027]

If people are scaling to Sandman, then why is anyone 8-A?

If not, what are they scaling to? The profiles confuse me.

Miles was fighting Venom at the end of the game and was clearly hurting him even without his own Venom powers. Miles in this game should downscale from whatever Venom scales to. If that puts him above base Peter then so be it, the Rhino fight was from a weaker Miles anyway.

If Base Peter has any feats in this game that would make him equal to Base Miles then they should both just downscale from Venom.

They aren't scaling to sandman that's wrong they are still 8-A to low 7-C, the whole first page is us saying allat needs to be fixed. Please read first so we don't have to go in circles


Sandman is like 7-C also

 

[Lonkitt]

Also I just wanna bring this up. I definitely think Miles > Peter based on what was discussed earlier

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Wait so where is Low 7-C coming from? The only Low 7-C feat I see is sandman’s blade swing thing.

 

[Dalesean027]

Wait so where is Low 7-C coming from? The only Low 7-C feat I see is sandman’s blade swing thing.

Nah Miles's feat is less than like 1.35x away from baseline low 7-C and he performs 4 feats of the same level casually with 0 absorption. So anyone who would stomp him at base and can outright tank his attacks in full would upscale low 7-C

Sandman has a low 7-C swing and a 7-C sand feat that's like 15 kilotons

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Nah Miles's feat is less than like 1.35x away from baseline low 7-C and he performs 4 feats of the same level casually with 0 absorption. So anyone who would stomp him at base and can outright tank his attacks in full would upscale low 7-C

Sandman has a low 7-C swing and a 7-C sand feat that's like 15 kilotons

Ok, so given what I’ve read so far:

Miles and Peter should either be equal to that “casual” Venom value or baseline 8-A+, with Miles being baseline Low 7-C with it?

Symbiote Peter and Venom then are just straight Baseline Low 7-C as they can take multiple blasts from Miles. Kraven and Lizard then scale to Symbiote Peter.

And no one else should really be impacted by this other than these guys since older Miles is obviously stronger than when he fought Rhino.

 

[Dalesean027]

Ok, so given what I’ve read so far:

Miles and Peter should either be equal to that “casual” Venom value or baseline 8-A+, with Miles being baseline Low 7-C with it?

Symbiote Peter and Venom then are just straight Baseline Low 7-C as they can take multiple blasts from Miles. Kraven and Lizard then scale to Symbiote Peter.

And no one else should really be impacted by this other than these guys since older Miles is obviously stronger than when he fought Rhino.

Nah we literally have 0 reason to assume he's stronger, this was the very start of the game with 0 absorption and no notes of a power increase

Better feats yeah but narratively no lore reasons pointing to them getting stronger until later in the game

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Nah we literally have 0 reason to assume he's stronger, this was the very start of the game with 0 absorption and no notes of a power increase

Better feats yeah but narratively no lore reasons pointing to them getting stronger until later in the game

Well I assume all the other characters would get upgraded to 8-A+ along with Peter since he definitely has no reason to be stronger but no one would be Low 7-C except maybe Rhino?

 

[Dalesean027]

Well I assume all the other characters would get upgraded to 8-A+ along with Peter since he definitely has no reason to be stronger but no one would be Low 7-C except maybe Rhino?

Symbites tiers would be low 7-C anyone else would just scale regularly I'd say maybe Rhino could be but eh I'll wait to hear what the others think

 

[Golden_Void]

To simplify why Miles is comparable to Black Suit/Anti-Venom Peter:
-One-shot weakened Kraven, who was capable of cracking Black Suit Peter's skull while in the same condition
-His body can withstand the force of his venom attacks; therefore, his durability is equal
-Anyone who hurts Miles upscales from his durability and, consequently, his venom attacks (Kraven, Venom, BS/AV Peter by association, Lizard, certain symbiotes?)
-AV Peter also had a Mister Negative buff on top of the symbiote, and Miles could keep up with him against Venom

Nah we literally have 0 reason to assume he's stronger, this was the very start of the game with 0 absorption and no notes of a power increase

Better feats yeah but narratively no lore reasons pointing to them getting stronger until later in the game

There was a time skip between games, plus Miles is becoming a better Spider-Man with more experience. Plus, he's still growing up, so there are a few reasons.

 

[Dalesean027]

There was a time skip between games, plus Miles is becoming a better Spider-Man with more experience. Plus, he's still growing up, so there are a few reasons

I mean that'd equate to experience and skill personally since I don't think we're ever given the implication or statement he's getting stronger as he's getting older or doing more spidey stuff

I mean obvious he probably could be but like we don't really have anything to concretely base the assumption of that alone off of concretely that's supported in the narrative

 

[Kingofwolves999]

I mean that'd equate to experience and skill personally since I don't think we're ever given the implication or statement he's getting stronger as he's getting older or doing more spidey stuff

I mean obvious he probably could be but like we don't really have anything to concretely base the assumption of that alone off of concretely that's supported in the narrative

I mean he can hurt Venom at the end of the game alongside an amped Peter? And I don’t see anyone bringing up feats for Peter that particularly make him on par with Miles base to base in this game.

It’s been what, a year since last game? I can definitely buy that Miles, with months to hone his venom powers, could outpace Peter in strength. It’s not like it’s a massive jump in power either… but then that kind of leads me to question what Peter is exactly scaling to?

Peter’s 8-A+ scaling relies on him being comparable to Base Miles in AP, which needs to be comparable to his casual Venom punches. Are there any statements or showings to back that up? I always assumed that Miles, even when being casual with his Venom punches, is operating much higher than his base strength can put out.

 

[Dalesean027]

mean he can hurt Venom at the end of the game alongside an amped Peter? And I don’t see anyone bringing up feats for Peter that particularly make him on par with Miles base to base in this game.

Miles himself gets an amp after coming across Li and getting the blue electricity

I'd buy that more than splitting it up as if they grew stronger just sitting around when they both get amps in this game, Peter gets 2 amps actually to get his anti-venom suit

Symbiote amp + Martin Li powers amp

Miles just gets mixed in with Li's powers to get his blue electricity.

Peter’s 8-A+ scaling relies on him being comparable to Base Miles in AP, which needs to be comparable to his casual Venom punches. Are there any statements or showings to back that up? I always assumed that Miles, even when being casual with his Venom punches, is operating much higher than his base strength can put out.

Nothing suggest its so much high than what his base can put out that it'd be its own entirely seperate rating especially considering its own scaling in this game alone

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Ok, so Miles also got amped by Li for the blue electricity.

In that case yeah I don’t see much reason for Base Miles to not be Low 7-C at the end of the game. Assuming he has to endure the force of his own Venom attacks, then after his amp and his showings against Symbiote tier enemies, that should be pretty clear.

So start of game, Miles and Peter are comparable, and scaling to the 8-A value due to his Bioelectricity, then Miles gets amped and is Low 7-C for the rest of the game, which Symbiote Peter and others scale off of.

I’m confused by that simply cause Miles profile right now says that his Internal Bio-Electricity is a one-shot gap… which isn’t even accurate since he never one shots Rhino with it.

 

[Golden_Void]

I mean that'd equate to experience and skill personally since I don't think we're ever given the implication or statement he's getting stronger as he's getting older or doing more spidey stuff

I mean obvious he probably could be but like we don't really have anything to concretely base the assumption of that alone off of concretely that's supported in the narrative

Yeah, true, nothing directly stated, but in the 10-month gap, he had access to Peter himself. In Miles Morales, he was training and getting stronger fighting holograms while his main villains were Rhino, whom he already beat in his infancy, Prowler, who was a joke compared to Rhino, and Tinkerer, who slaps Rhino. Plus he's a growing teen.

Miles himself gets an amp after coming across Li and getting the blue electricity

I'd buy that more than splitting it up as if they grew stronger just sitting around when they both get amps in this game, Peter gets 2 amps actually to get his anti-venom suit

Symbiote amp + Martin Li powers amp

Miles just gets mixed in with Li's powers to get his blue electricity.
Nothing suggest its so much high than what his base can put out that it'd be its own entirely seperate rating especially considering its own scaling in this game alone

With the scans provided earlier, Li never amped Miles. It was his own character development that buffed him.

I mean he can hurt Venom at the end of the game alongside an amped Peter? And I don’t see anyone bringing up feats for Peter that particularly make him on par with Miles base to base in this game.

It’s been what, a year since last game? I can definitely buy that Miles, with months to hone his venom powers, could outpace Peter in strength. It’s not like it’s a massive jump in power either… but then that kind of leads me to question what Peter is exactly scaling to?

Peter’s 8-A+ scaling relies on him being comparable to Base Miles in AP, which needs to be comparable to his casual Venom punches. Are there any statements or showings to back that up? I always assumed that Miles, even when being casual with his Venom punches, is operating much higher than his base strength can put out.

Base Miles outstats

 

[Golden_Void]

I’m confused by that simply cause Miles profile right now says that his Internal Bio-Electricity is a one-shot gap… which isn’t even accurate since he never one shots Rhino with it.

At overload capacity Miles one shots by feats. He hasn't been at full capacity since he absorbed the roxxon reactor.

 

[Dalesean027]

With the scans provided earlier, Li never amped Miles. It was his own character development that buffed him.

I see I see well then yeah I suppose all is fine then

 

[Golden_Void]

....only thing is how do we rate Scream? Pete fought her without a black suit. Obviously, she's weaker than both Kraven and Venom. I would even say Rhino is stronger than her.

 

[Dalesean027]

....only thing is how do we rate Scream? Pete fought her without a black suit. Obviously, she's weaker than both Kraven and Venom. I would even say Rhino is stronger than her.

Not sure tbh I mean I'd doubt Peter was going all out and I also doubt MJ was too considering she was actively fighting the symbiote

Maybe Possibly?

 

[Kingofwolves999]

At overload capacity Miles one shots by feats. He hasn't been at full capacity since he absorbed the roxxon reactor.

The way it’s formatted it sounds like the power in general is a one-shot, so maybe it can be re-worded to “Varies, up to at least Large Building level”? Cause then my confusion goes away. That or I’m dumb.

Either way, I think the current proposals are fine with how you would split people.

For instance, Miles would be:

Multi-City Block level+ (Can fight Rhino; stunning him. Comparable to Peter), Varies (His Venom abilities can vastly differ in outputs, but are typically stronger than his normal attacks), up to at least Multi-City Block level+ (Can one shot enemies on his level when overloading) with Internal Bioelectricity, up to Large Town level with Energy Absorption (Is capable of destroying all of Harlem with enough energy, though this almost killed him in the process) | Small Town level (More powerful after nearly a year of training. Is casually capable of performing this level of damage to Sandman with his Venom attacks and grew even stronger after no longer holding himself back), Varies with Internal Bioelectricity, up to at least Large Town level with Energy Absorption (Should be capable of storing far more power than before)

Peter would be:

Multi-City Block level+ (Comparable to Miles, etc.), Small Town level with the Symbiote Suit (Much stronger than before thanks to the added boost in strength the symbiote suit gives. Able to keep up with Miles Morales) and Anti-Venom Suit (Able to singlehandedly hold off and subdue Venom for a brief period of time)

 

[Golden_Void]

Not sure tbh I mean I'd doubt Peter was going all out and I also doubt MJ was too considering she was actively fighting the symbiote

Maybe Possibly?

Possibly what?

 

[Dalesean027]

Possibly what?

A possibly low 7-C rating or likely?

 

[Kingofwolves999]

If she’s fighting a holding back base Peter and is somewhat holding back herself, Scream should just be 8-A no?

 

[Golden_Void]

If she’s fighting a holding back base Peter and is somewhat holding back herself, Scream should just be 8-A no?

That's what I'm asking. Peter didn't have access to his symbiote power boost either, so it was purely his base. She obviously wasn't on par with anyone Peter fought with a black suit; otherwise, she would've washed him. Kraven literally killed Peter, and the Lizard BS Spider-Man fought was much bigger/stronger than the one Peter fought in the past.

 

[Golden_Void]

Just looked at some of the symbiote scenes-

Symbiote Behemoth basically one-shots Peter with a throw, becomes a boss battle after Peter gets his AV suit but he still wins comfortably
Scream is a boss battle for normal Pete but both are holding back (Peter logically even more so)
The rest of the symbiotes they can handle, they just don't want to hurt the regular people, plus they have really large numbers

Scream < Base SM <<< Rhino <<<<<< Behemoth Symbiote < Kraven < BS SM < AV AM <<<<< Venom

Something like that

 

[Maitreya12]

The way it’s formatted it sounds like the power in general is a one-shot, so maybe it can be re-worded to “Varies, up to at least Large Building level”? Cause then my confusion goes away. That or I’m dumb.

Either way, I think the current proposals are fine with how you would split people.

For instance, Miles would be:

Multi-City Block level+ (Can fight Rhino; stunning him. Comparable to Peter), Varies (His Venom abilities can vastly differ in outputs, but are typically stronger than his normal attacks), up to at least Multi-City Block level+ (Can one shot enemies on his level when overloading) with Internal Bioelectricity, up to Large Town level with Energy Absorption (Is capable of destroying all of Harlem with enough energy, though this almost killed him in the process) | Small Town level (More powerful after nearly a year of training. Is casually capable of performing this level of damage to Sandman with his Venom attacks and grew even stronger after no longer holding himself back), Varies with Internal Bioelectricity, up to at least Large Town level with Energy Absorption (Should be capable of storing far more power than before)

Peter would be:

Multi-City Block level+ (Comparable to Miles, etc.), Small Town level with the Symbiote Suit (Much stronger than before thanks to the added boost in strength the symbiote suit gives. Able to keep up with Miles Morales) and Anti-Venom Suit (Able to singlehandedly hold off and subdue Venom for a brief period of time)

This is mostly fine though there are some things to point out. Like how if base Peter is comparable to Miles then he’d just be flat out low 7-C based on how the justifications are worded. Scaling chain would probably look like something around this:

Li<Spider-Man<Miles<Kraven<Symbiote/Anti-Venom Peter<Venom<Mutated Venom.

I’ll probably get to work on the profiles later today and adjust the stats and powers/abilities accordingly.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I can guarantee no one agrees with that chain.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I agree with the chain.

 

[Dalesean027]

We need more input because everyone hss their own scaling chain apparently

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I feel like we should just lay out our scaling chain with justifications and start from there cuz my eyebrows are raised on the other chain while @Maitreya12’s seem simple enough narratively.

 

[Lonkitt]

We need more input because everyone hss their own scaling chain apparently

The problem with scaling chains for the Insomniac verse is that they aren't actually as in-depth as I believe many people think they are. Most of the time? Its "character scales to Peter's rating" or "character upscales Peter's rating" (albeit, to varying degrees, but not by gigantic bounds). I personally don't see a lot of the powerscaling dynamics in Insomniac's Spider-Man because...well, there really isn't any evidence that the power differences are that broad

 

[Dalesean027]

The problem with scaling chains for the Insomniac verse is that they aren't actually as in-depth as I believe many people think they are. Most of the time? Its "character scales to Peter's rating" or "character upscales Peter's rating" (albeit, to varying degrees, but not by gigantic bounds). I personally don't see a lot of the powerscaling dynamics in Insomniac's Spider-Man because...well, there really isn't any evidence that the power differences are that broad

This I agree with outside of the symbiotes and kraven and to some degree rhino otherwise everyone else is treated pretty relatively aside from maybe Miles and base peter at times

 

[Nierre]

I can guarantee no one agrees with that chain.

I agree with the chain.

following

 

[Golden_Void]

This is mostly fine though there are some things to point out. Like how if base Peter is comparable to Miles then he’d just be flat out low 7-C based on how the justifications are worded. Scaling chain would probably look like something around this:

Li<Spider-Man<Miles<Kraven<Symbiote/Anti-Venom Peter<Venom<Mutated Venom.

I’ll probably get to work on the profiles later today and adjust the stats and powers/abilities accordingly.

Peter being above Li means he hits harder than (or close enough to) Miles's venom. Several fights contradict this. Peter gets K.O'd twice by natural lightning; Miles absorbing it and turning it into venom energy used to bisect Sandman contradicts this as well. The sooner people accept that Peter was made weaker to make room for Miles as the new #1 Spider-Man, the easier this will all be tbh.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

The sooner people accept that Peter was made weaker to make room for Miles as the new #1 Spider-Man, the easier this will all be tbh.

I don’t even think he was made weaker, Miles just has… better feats.