Magnitude 10.50000000...1 and Higher Earthquakes

[Arc7Kuroi]

Basically, what the opposition is saying

DT is saying the equations for seismic earthquake energy that you extrapolated upon for magnitudes greater than 10.5 are derived under the conditions that the planet has the same radius as Earth, i.e. because the One Piece planet is not the size of Earth the equations from which you extrapolated upon for larger magnitudes wouldn't hold inherently true. Aka the base/root of the equation you're using is only valid in the regime of a planet with the same dimensions as Earth, if I'm understanding DT's most recent post correctly. You're essentially taking an equation that can only be applied to Earth-like planets and attempting to apply it to non-Earth-like planets, is what appears to be the issue, like applying an explosion formula to an attack that isn't explosive I guess.

 

[Eseseso]

DT is saying the equations for seismic earthquake energy that you extrapolated upon for magnitudes greater than 10.5 are derived under the conditions that the planet has the same radius as Earth, i.e. because the One Piece planet is not the size of Earth the equations from which you extrapolated upon for larger magnitudes wouldn't hold inherently true. Aka the base/root of the equation you're using is only valid in the regime of a planet with the same dimensions as Earth, if I'm understanding DT's most recent post correctly. You're essentially taking an equation that can only be applied to Earth-like planets and attempting to apply it to non-Earth-like planets, is what appears to be the issue, like applying an explosion formula to an attack that isn't explosive I guess.

But then how do we find Total Seismic Energy for planets like the OP world without unfairly nerfing them with a 10.5 limit?

Entire verses could have their scaling wrongly affected by a wrongly nerfed Earthquake calc (especially One Piece).

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

But then how do we find Total Seismic Energy for planets like the OP world without unfairly nerfing them with a 10.5 limit?

Entire verses could have their scaling wrongly affected by a wrongly nerfed Earthquake calc (especially One Piece).

Going off what DT said we would need to know the complexities of the planet's composition. Which is likely impossible, so you'd have to lowball it and use the artificial quake formula I linked you earlier. It wouldn't be wrong to use a correct lowballed calc over and incorrect extrapolated calc btw. Between the choices of using an illegitimate formula that has no means of justification vs using a formula that while being a lowball is provably correct, the latter of the options will always win out. I guess you could always look into the derivations of the earthquake formulas and try to derive an equation for larger planets, like if you could see how the planet's radius plays into the seismic energy equations you might be able to get something fruitful. Although, if the composition becomes necessary you might be struck out of luck.

 

[KingTempest]

1. @KingTempest informed me that he talked with some people and they said that it was ok to use Total Seismic Energy for Whitebeard's Kabutowari Earthquake calc that tempest made.

I said the regular method was valid in the sense that he messed with the plates, not that it’s fine for different planets.

 

[KLOL506]

Going off what DT said we would need to know the complexities of the planet's composition. Which is likely impossible, so you'd have to lowball it and use the artificial quake formula I linked you earlier. It wouldn't be wrong to use a correct lowballed calc over and incorrect extrapolated calc btw. Between the choices of using an illegitimate formula that has no means of justification vs using a formula that while being a lowball is provably correct, the latter of the options will always win out. I guess you could always look into the derivations of the earthquake formulas and try to derive an equation for larger planets, like if you could see how the planet's radius plays into the seismic energy equations you might be able to get something fruitful. Although, if the composition becomes necessary you might be struck out of luck.

I remember Qawsedf saying that the artificial quake formula can't work if there are no tectonic plates and the planet is hollow, also no idea if this formula works for planets smaller or bigger than Earth.

 

[Eseseso]

But what about calcs that mess with the tectonic plates on a non-Earthlike planet?

Which type of Earthquake power calc would that apply to?

 

[KingTempest]

There is none

 

[Eseseso]

So what do we do?

Since it doesn't seem like any of the wiki's current calcs can be used.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

If anything over a magnitude 10.5 is considered impossible due to how large the fault line must be. why does calc like this exist then? im asking out of genuine ignorance also becuase there is earthquake calc for characters im interested in getting numbers for, for future crts

From what i seen most of the calcs for the r>700km formula usually yeilds results beyond 10.5 magnitude

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I remember Qawsedf saying that the artificial quake formula can't work if there are no tectonic plates and the planet is hollow, also no idea if this formula works for planets smaller or bigger than Earth.

The reason one uses that value in this case is that the big energy loss that comes through the movement of the continental plate or similar processes of natural earthquakes is not present here. Instead we can only use the amount of energy that actually takes part in the effects we observer. Hence only the energy radiated in form of seismic waves is relevant for this case.

The description of method 3, to me, is saying that it is used in cases where we don't have information on tectonic plates, so it might be valid even if we don't know composition, and I'm pretty sure we use method 3 for stuff like shaking the universe. So I always assumed method 3 was a generic shaking calc, although ig I could be wrong.

 

[Eseseso]

This calc basically showed what to do for Earthquakes above 10.5.

People were acting like I'd invented the wheel for doing something already kinda found, lol.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I think you're entirely missing the point of what DT has been saying. Just because something is valid for a certain range (earthquake formulas valid for magnitude's under 10.5) doesn't mean it'll be valid for every single value.

 

[Eseseso]

I think you're entirely missing the point of what DT has been saying.

I've looked over what he said, but there doesn't seem to be any actual proposed sensical solution.

 

[KingTempest]

Yeah this has been declined and then some.

For bigger planets, radiated waves. For magnitudes above 10.5, radiated waves. For earth planets under 10.5, Total Seismic?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I've looked over what he said, but there doesn't seem to be any actual proposed sensical solution.

It seems that way because there are far too many unknowns (i.e. planet composition) to offer a solution that would be accurate and satisfy your desire to apply the Earth-seismic eqns to non-Earth planets. If you don't have enough information to solve a problem, then you simply cannot solve said problem.

 

[Migue79]

If only science were so simple...

 

[KingTempest]

Anyways, closing

 

[KingTempest]

Sorry to reopen this thread, but this is something that was kinda very important to the topic at hand

If anything over a magnitude 10.5 is considered impossible due to how large the fault line must be. why does calc like this exist then?

I checked the validity of the formula which was found on the earthquake calculator site's source code

var Eo = Math.pow(10, 9.091); // joules
var J = Math.pow(10, 1.5 * R) * Eo; // joules

And it's right

So how come something like this is valid enough to happen?

Is it cause it does stretch through the planet, which gives it a large ass fault length?

 

[Eseseso]

And I'm sorry, but this is what I found in regards to why seismic energy for anything above magnitude 8 isn't allowed:

"Any further is Planet level, IE, the Earthquake would literally cause the destruction of earth, and is thereby completely impossible, unless some unique circumstance arises in the specific work that would permit it. By which case, the calculation can be made with that specific contextualization."

If a planet was stated and confirmed different from Earth in size (as in, being way larger) by a massive degree, wouldn't that count as being a unique circumstance that would allow for such an Earthquake?

You wouldn't expect an Earthquake that could destroy the Earth to destroy, say, Jupiter, would you?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

After reading some quick information from USGS. The calculations for it sound like it should be the same. It's just that any magnitude over 10 on our irl earth cannot happen because we don't have a fault line big enough to support it thus if in theory if it did happen on Earth the earth would break apart.

 

[Eseseso]

After reading some quick information from USGS. The calculations for it sound like it should be the same. It's just that any magnitude over 10 on our irl earth cannot happen because we don't have a fault line big enough to support it thus if in theory it did happen on Earth it'd break earth apart.

But this would only be for our Earth, not for a fictional planet that is many, many times larger than Earth.

A Magnitude 10 Earthquake would do way less damage to Jupiter than the Earth.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Also, the Chicxulub impact (Dino killing asteriod) is predicted to have been over magnitude 11 as it might have caused a series of magnitude 11 quakes to erupt throughout the planet as a side effect of its impact. Dunno if that changes anything.

Dino-killing asteroid triggered 'mega-earthquake' that rocked the planet for months

The Chicxulub impact rocked the world. Literally.

www.livescience.com

 

[KingTempest]

Also, the Chicxulub impact (Dino killing asteriod) is predicted to have been over magnitude 11 as it might have caused a series of magnitude 11 quakes to erupt throughout the planet as a side effect of its impact. Dunno if that changes anything.

Dino-killing asteroid triggered 'mega-earthquake' that rocked the planet for months

The Chicxulub impact rocked the world. Literally.

www.livescience.com

There might be an issue with meteor caused magnitude 10.5+ earthquakes and natural tectonic plate caused magnitude 10.5+ earthquakes

 

[Eseseso]

There might be an issue with meteor caused magnitude 10.5+ earthquakes and natural tectonic plate caused magnitude 10.5+ earthquakes

Probably right.

I mean, the causes of normal Earthquakes and meteor ones are totally different.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Someone call DT

 

[DontTalkDT]

IIIIII don't understand what we are even debating right now beyond what was established before in the thread.
To repeat:
No moment magnitude (i.e. total seismic energy) stuff above 9, because moment magnitude involves stress on continental plates stuff and continental plates can't take more stress than 9 before snapping.
"But what about fictional super plates" you ask? Well, if you have fictional super plates you can throw away the whole method, because none of the assumptions baked into the formula work anymore. (Same with planets that don't equalize to Earth due to size or other factors)

That is for moment magnitude only, not Richter scale. Richter scale can basically be whatever, as it's a measure of the energy of the earthquake.
If Richter scale is greater than planet level you would need to ask how such an earthquake is physically possible without destroying the planet, meaning that's a definitive limit to roughly any formula, but short of that richter scale is everything goes.
That's for instance why you can have meteors that have 11 magnitude on richter scale. Meteor just pumped that much energy into the ground.

 

[Eseseso]

IIIIII don't understand what we are even debating right now beyond what was established before in the thread.
To repeat:
No moment magnitude (i.e. total seismic energy) stuff above 9, because moment magnitude involves stress on continental plates stuff and continental plates can't take more stress than 9 before snapping.
"But what about fictional super plates" you ask? Well, if you have fictional super plates you can throw away the whole method, because none of the assumptions baked into the formula work anymore. (Same with planets that don't equalize to Earth due to size or other factors)

That is for moment magnitude only, not Richter scale. Richter scale can basically be whatever, as it's a measure of the energy of the earthquake.
If Richter scale is greater than planet level you would need to ask how such an earthquake is physically possible without destroying the planet, meaning that's a definitive limit to roughly any formula, but short of that richter scale is everything goes.
That's for instance why you can have meteors that have 11 magnitude on richter scale. Meteor just pumped that much energy into the ground.

What Kingtempest asked, and what has yet to be answered, is why the specific calcing method that he described works.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I just wanna say according to the articles I read. The asteriod caused tectonic plate movements in multiple areas that caused earthquakes that are estimated to be magnitude 11 at the least.

Still Induced by asteriod though

 

[KingTempest]

IIIIII don't understand what we are even debating right now beyond what was established before in the thread.
To repeat:
No moment magnitude (i.e. total seismic energy) stuff above 9, because moment magnitude involves stress on continental plates stuff and continental plates can't take more stress than 9 before snapping.
"But what about fictional super plates" you ask? Well, if you have fictional super plates you can throw away the whole method, because none of the assumptions baked into the formula work anymore. (Same with planets that don't equalize to Earth due to size or other factors)

That is for moment magnitude only, not Richter scale. Richter scale can basically be whatever, as it's a measure of the energy of the earthquake.
If Richter scale is greater than planet level you would need to ask how such an earthquake is physically possible without destroying the planet, meaning that's a definitive limit to roughly any formula, but short of that richter scale is everything goes.
That's for instance why you can have meteors that have 11 magnitude on richter scale. Meteor just pumped that much energy into the ground.

We aren't debating it, we're asking for the validity of the planet wide earthquake's usage for Total "Seismic Moment Energy" which are bringing results far above what the cap for the calculator's energy output is

Because the magnitude that's plugged into the formula (also plugged into the earthquake calculator) uses the Richter scale, yet it gives a 10.5 cap, and the one plugged into the formula on the planet wide shake's calc gives larger than that when transferred into finding the yield spread out through the planet

 

[Eseseso]

I still don't see anything that proves that seismic energy can't reasonably be used for earthquakes of magnitude 10.5+ on planets that are confirmed to be way above Earth's size.

 

[KingTempest]

I still don't see anything that proves that seismic energy can't reasonably be used for earthquakes of magnitude 10.5+ on planets that are confirmed to be way above Earth's size.

Because

Different planet mechanics means different fault lines and such

 

[Eseseso]

Because

Different planet mechanics means different fault lines and such

So we can't just assume that an Earthquake that is a certain magnitude on a big planet wouldn't just be equivalent to an earthquake of a much bigger magnitude on a smaller planet?

 

[KingTempest]

So we can't just assume that an Earthquake that is a certain magnitude on a big planet wouldn't just be equivalent to an earthquake of a much bigger magnitude on a smaller planet?

exactly

 

[Eseseso]

exactly

Even if the planet is earth-like?

Huh.

Well, fine then.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

That is for moment magnitude only, not Richter scale. Richter scale can basically be whatever, as it's a measure of the energy of the earthquake.
If Richter scale is greater than planet level you would need to ask how such an earthquake is physically possible without destroying the planet

so if the planet is beyond a 5-B planet, like some fictional planets are, it's fine with an abnormally high richter scale?

 

[KLOL506]

So we can't just assume that an Earthquake that is a certain magnitude on a big planet wouldn't just be equivalent to an earthquake of a much bigger magnitude on a smaller planet?

Uhhhhhhhh...

Y'all do realize that the Earthquake formula is limited to Earth-like planets of Earth-like size, right? It wouldn't work on anything smaller or bigger or anything that lacks plate tectonics.

Anything below or beyond would just use Peak Ground Acceleration which is basically good old fashioned KE but the speed is in cm/s.

 

[KingTempest]

To correct a few, earthquakes don't require tectonic plates. They require fault lines. Tectonic plates cause earthquakes. Basically squares nd rectangles

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

What if a fictional earth has the divine protection of a God to prevent the force of a magnitude 10 or higher quake from devastating the planet? Would it be acceptable to proceed then?

 

[DontTalkDT]

We aren't debating it, we're asking for the validity of the planet wide earthquake's usage for Total "Seismic Moment Energy" which are bringing results far above what the cap for the calculator's energy output is

Because the magnitude that's plugged into the formula (also plugged into the earthquake calculator) uses the Richter scale, yet it gives a 10.5 cap, and the one plugged into the formula on the planet wide shake's calc gives larger than that when transferred into finding the yield spread out through the planet

Presumably, we should cut off the seismic moment energy values at the appropriate points, yes.

I just wanna say according to the articles I read. The asteriod caused tectonic plate movements in multiple areas that caused earthquakes that are estimated to be magnitude 11 at the least.

Still Induced by asteriod though

Yeah, 'cause that's Richter scale.

What if a fictional earth has the divine protection of a God to prevent the force of a magnitude 10 or higher quake from devastating the planet? Would it be acceptable to proceed then?

You mean the planet has a magical factor that completely changes how all the Earthquake physics on it works, by making the continental plates behave in a supernatural fashion? No.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Out of curiosity; does what is accepted in this thread make any calcs that uses earthquake values of magnitude 10 or higher null/unacceptable by wiki standards?