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Maybe, but additional evidence would be nice, no? We’d have to take a lowball if there’s no evidence otherwise. If there is evidence of them affecting someone someone who is several layers above them, then show it and the changes can be implemented
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Agree with the OP with everything after seeing this and the previous thread that touches this and the cosmology
Lormac_CC
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- #164
First, I don't see why we should low ball it when the explanation is pretty clear, is there any scan supporting why you chose to low ball it. You can't have your cake and refuse to eat it
Explanation of the ability is pretty clear, I should be the one asking is there a reason we should limit who they are swapping with
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If we get a statement like them swapping ranks with people above them in the hierarchy, we should always take the lowball instead of just NLFing it and saying that they can switch rank with someone 50 layers above them. It would be reaching to say otherwise.
If there's no evidence that they can swap ranks with someone higher than a single layer above them, then there's no reason to assume that they can do so.
Lormac_CC
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- #166
Even though the ability is pretty clear with Ugo saying he was now a god above gods, secondly I don't see why we should low ball it when scans are pretty clear, can rearrange the sequential order of the gods, the magic for rearranging the Hierarchy of the gods, also saying we should always low-ball it is funny cause I have seen verses on the wiki working on same principle. When DT defended that verse he never asked for the verse to low ball the statement
Every evidence shown about them altering the Hierarchy is that they are swapping with someone above a single layer. There are evidence that they are swapping with gods layers above but there is no evidence that they that they are limited to the god above them
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I'll concede, but if there are any other examples of them using this kind of ability, could you show scans for them? And the lowballing thing is just my own principle that I go by.
Given that I already lack knowledge of the verse, if you could provide more context behind some of the scans in the OP, I think the matter would be settled pretty quickly.
PrinceofPein
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i am saying he did not gain control of the Sp as human, but as a god and then he swapped
not exactly but it should be addressed
not relevant but creating a hax using illah power who is 6D is not exactly that and also the fights in the SP has a lot of anti-feat, but it is irrelevant and i want to fix shinza before moving to my other fav verses
have you read shinza? it is cool try it and see the light
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PrinceofPein
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Lormac_CC
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- #172
He never said he created it using illah's power thought, It was described as a formula and magic theory, Based on the description, it is a verse machanism rather than an actual hax and Ugo was the first to discover it. It is just how the verse works. The only thing created with illah power was the sacred palace
What fight, I hope it doesn't involve the hax
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If you're good at reading Japanese, then you'll probably be fine. If not, then yeah shinza's going to be pretty hard to read...
But anyway, can we get the current conclusions...and I change my vote to agree.
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Mr. Bambu
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I'm still here, I apologize for not getting around to reading everything sooner. I have to assume the OP isn't the current issue so I'll need to read through everything. Again, my apologies for the delay.
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Mr. Bambu
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Okay, going to progressively respond to stuff here- this may take a few days so shit may not be accurate to the current arguments. I'll try to prune this of irrelevant information if it comes down to certain points being ignored/debunked/removed/what have you.
I don't understand the OP's point about statistics reduction. It shows dropping a guy in a fish tank, and I'm vaguely aware of Magi's concept of new god on top of current god ad infinitum, but I don't see any mention in the scan of actually reducing that guy's rank.
I cannot confirm the Japanese (?) translations, but I know these are always a point of contention in weeb stuff. We may want to bring on one of our outside translator, if these aren't already officially translated. However, even if it were translated as OP suggests, I don't see how it actually changes anything about the apparent misconception- they change the order by ascending. Without evidence of just arbitrarily placing themselves wherever they like, I hardly find such a claim justified. I have read the translated scans (although I must admit using a mix of translated scans and untranslated raws seems odd to me), I don't find them to be strong evidence of the claims presented, either. Any ascension or descent would effectively change or alter the hierarchy of the gods just as much as ten thousand ascensions or descents.
I will also say, regarding these scans, that some of the fonts are really inconsistent, and some push in many words in tight boxes- is it possible these are fan translations of some kind? Just seems odd, is all.
Painto12 seems to bring up the same point I did, in that the OP doesn't provide evidence of being able to arbitrarily swap ranks. He also provides a scan that seems to visually imply it is one by one rather than swapping out at any point? Everything seems really interpretive from this point on, I don't think either party is more right. I would also like to note that the phrase "a god above gods" is being harped on quite a lot- I think that's silly, frankly. You can be the third lowest rung on the infinite ladder and still be a "god above gods"- it isn't evidence of anything.
Ant at one point said "Well, to me it all seems too muddled and unspecific for our purposes". I agree, for the powers being argued for are incredibly vague and never defined concretely even within the scans provided by the OP. They can change places in the hierarchy, sure- the exact mechanics of this seem undefined.
This scan is interesting, provided by Thanatos, and seems to be the first thing that would begin to defend the argument of the OP. However it is cut off. If we were told who (of the characters mentioned in the scan) were in what positions in the Hierarchy, then we would definitively have proof of the OP's claim. I admit this is an implication, but still not sufficient evidence for my tastes. Similarly, though, this scan does imply the very opposite- the gods are linear in their transcendence, one by one. I know people disagree with that, but it doesn't really matter. I feel I'm more in the linear progression camp right now.
I think that about summarizes my understanding of the thread. Personally, I'm against what is suggested by the OP- the changes would be sweeping, would upgrade characters tremendously, and bears very little evidence over the current ratings. That's my evaluation.
I don't understand the OP's point about statistics reduction. It shows dropping a guy in a fish tank, and I'm vaguely aware of Magi's concept of new god on top of current god ad infinitum, but I don't see any mention in the scan of actually reducing that guy's rank.
I cannot confirm the Japanese (?) translations, but I know these are always a point of contention in weeb stuff. We may want to bring on one of our outside translator, if these aren't already officially translated. However, even if it were translated as OP suggests, I don't see how it actually changes anything about the apparent misconception- they change the order by ascending. Without evidence of just arbitrarily placing themselves wherever they like, I hardly find such a claim justified. I have read the translated scans (although I must admit using a mix of translated scans and untranslated raws seems odd to me), I don't find them to be strong evidence of the claims presented, either. Any ascension or descent would effectively change or alter the hierarchy of the gods just as much as ten thousand ascensions or descents.
I will also say, regarding these scans, that some of the fonts are really inconsistent, and some push in many words in tight boxes- is it possible these are fan translations of some kind? Just seems odd, is all.
Painto12 seems to bring up the same point I did, in that the OP doesn't provide evidence of being able to arbitrarily swap ranks. He also provides a scan that seems to visually imply it is one by one rather than swapping out at any point? Everything seems really interpretive from this point on, I don't think either party is more right. I would also like to note that the phrase "a god above gods" is being harped on quite a lot- I think that's silly, frankly. You can be the third lowest rung on the infinite ladder and still be a "god above gods"- it isn't evidence of anything.
Ant at one point said "Well, to me it all seems too muddled and unspecific for our purposes". I agree, for the powers being argued for are incredibly vague and never defined concretely even within the scans provided by the OP. They can change places in the hierarchy, sure- the exact mechanics of this seem undefined.
This scan is interesting, provided by Thanatos, and seems to be the first thing that would begin to defend the argument of the OP. However it is cut off. If we were told who (of the characters mentioned in the scan) were in what positions in the Hierarchy, then we would definitively have proof of the OP's claim. I admit this is an implication, but still not sufficient evidence for my tastes. Similarly, though, this scan does imply the very opposite- the gods are linear in their transcendence, one by one. I know people disagree with that, but it doesn't really matter. I feel I'm more in the linear progression camp right now.
I think that about summarizes my understanding of the thread. Personally, I'm against what is suggested by the OP- the changes would be sweeping, would upgrade characters tremendously, and bears very little evidence over the current ratings. That's my evaluation.
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If I am interpreting the scans in the OP correctly, it seems to be saying that because they can change the order of the gods, they can basically weaken other gods by changing their rank on the hierarchy, hence statistics reduction.
This makes some sense from what I understood of it.
I mean, if they're able to rise above other gods and become a god of gods, along with other things, that might be evidence that they can arbitrarily change ranks rather than it being one-by-one. Still, it being done in a ordered fashion does make that theory shaky.
I agree with the first part, but I think the linear transcendence thing was already clarified to not being what they're using. I think their ascension is different from their ability to change the order of the hierarchy, but I lack a lot of knowledge of this verse, so I'm just going off what I've seen in the thread.
PrinceofPein
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The changing ranks one by one was from another instance not the SP, it was used as a narration by me but yeah my entire point is that
The thing the OP is proposing is that they can suddenly go from 6D to 15661761817726D anytime, which well was never done in the series itself although we can assume they can but they themselves were never shown to swap that high and in battle they only swapped one layer and also they already have 1B via able to swap other gods layers what the OP is proposing is that they used the SP on themselves during the series to swap from 6D to countless D but that literally never happened or was implied in the series so hence why I disagree as to why give them something they never did?
The thing the OP is proposing is that they can suddenly go from 6D to 15661761817726D anytime, which well was never done in the series itself although we can assume they can but they themselves were never shown to swap that high and in battle they only swapped one layer and also they already have 1B via able to swap other gods layers what the OP is proposing is that they used the SP on themselves during the series to swap from 6D to countless D but that literally never happened or was implied in the series so hence why I disagree as to why give them something they never did?
Mr. Bambu
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@Antvasima Confirm? I suppose this is something you'd know.
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Qliphoth helped out with translations there, but he had to constantly use Japanese wordbooks to do so, as he does not understand Japanese fluently as far as I am aware, and was eventually overwhelmed and quit because of this. In addition, we have a rule in the translations thread against using our own unofficial fan translations over material that has already been officially translated, and is likely more reliable.
We should only focus on requesting help with Japanese or Chinese text that has not been translated previously in a reliable manner, not anything else.
That said, our current translator seems more skilled, but the above rules still apply.
We should only focus on requesting help with Japanese or Chinese text that has not been translated previously in a reliable manner, not anything else.
That said, our current translator seems more skilled, but the above rules still apply.
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Disagree, there are occasions in which the official translation is inferior in every way comparing to the fan translation (even if it is just a word that changes is minuscule, it can change the whole sentence/context of the scene in the extreme cases), in this case, without any exceptions, go directly to the original material (RAW) and do translations with multiple translators with sufficient knowledge and understanding of the language (no machine translator, they need to be banned) and make the respective comparison under the context of the scene, if it fits well then everything is fine, if it does not match then see which version is more accurate, for something the analysis case by case.
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The point is that there is no guarantee whatsoever that Qliphoth making an amateur translation will produce better results than a professional translator, especially given that he does not know Japanese fluently as far as I am aware. Also, our rules regarding this issue is to preferably use the official translation in cases like this, not give the text to different translators until you finally find one that lets you exaggerate the related statistics as much as possible.
Mr. Bambu
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Alright. Do we have official translations then? If not, could we run this by the current translator? The current translation doesn't have much bearing on my evaluation but if it was translated poorly there is a chance it may change things.
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