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Magi conceptual manipulation revision

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Lormac_CC

Lormac_CC

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I planned on doing this a long time ago after this thread. The conceptual nature of Rukh.

Rukh​

The Rukh is the home of souls and is the origin of life. It is hailed as a supernatural force which governs the world. To those who can see rukh, it is like an endless stream of birds. Rukh is the most basic unit of the spirit(keep in mind, the Rukh isn't the spirit but rather something that depicts the spirit) According to Ugo, the world is made up of multiple dimensions not spatial or temporal in this sense. Other characters also said it. Rukh is one of these invisible dimensions. The source of rukh is a primordial God. God is also made of rukh. The rukh holds the will of a god. Rukh is also Truth. According to Matal and Sinbad, Rukh governs Natural phenomenal. According to Solomon, the Rukh is powerful enough to change fate. Other characters also said this. The guidance of the Rukh is fate in the new world. By human standards, there are Infinite qualities of Rukh. Rukh are pure existence, The world can return to a state of pure Rukh. The world flow backwards when returning to Rukh, systems are also affected. Systems are concepts. Rukh is equal in everything. So the rukh that forms a God body is also the rukh that exists in animals. Rukh exists everywhere and in everything except within a primordial God.

I need people knowledgeable on conceptual manipulation to know if it does qualify as a concept
 
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Doesn't sound conceptual to me. It sounds like spiritual power/lifeforce that has some influence over reality.
The one scan that mentions concepts doesn't do so in a clear enough way to conclude concept manipulation in our sense of the word. In the concept it likely means more so 'idea' than 'source of properties'.
Like one would say "He introduced the concept of selling books via the Internet." to use an example from the cambridge dictionary, which in reverse would mean "Before he introduced it there was no concept of selling books via the Internet."
 
DontTalkDT said:
The one scan that mentions concepts doesn't do so in a clear enough way to conclude concept manipulation in our sense of the word.
Click to expand...
In context, The character is Magi. He needed up in a different space-time where the concept of a Magi don't exists and he stopped being a Magi
 
Lormac_CC said:
In context, The character is Magi. He needed up in a different space-time where the concept of a Magi don't exists and he stopped being a Magi
Click to expand...
Yeah, I get that. But as said one can use a phrase like "Before he introduced it there was no concept of selling books via the Internet" to just mean "selling books via the internet wasn't invented".
The scans "the concept of magi that was created by Solomon wasn't invented" has pretty much the same ring to me. Notice how it was the concept wasn't "invented" not wasn't "created", which is a pretty good indicator that we are talking about coming up and realising an idea, not creating a new fundamental source of properties.
 
Antvasima said:
Given what DontTalk said, this seems to have been rejected. Should we close this thread?
Click to expand...
No need to close the thread, Magi has concept type 1 due to Rukh. So this is more of a downgrade. I will edit it. I will also propose some other concept which can qualify for concept manipulation type 2 or 3
 
Rukh is not a concept
Click to expand...

Definition of the concept itself an idea / abstraction about something

Rukh itself is abstract, it can't actually be seen, only the chosen one can see Rukh. Even this is not a literal Rukh but a manifestation of Rukh (endless stream of birds). And Rukh is a fundamental aspect that is supported by spirit, and Magi cosmology (that's why the world is forced back to Rukh, everything automatically turns into nothingness), Rukh is also destiny. Plus, if reality is destroyed, Rukh is still there, this could be CM1

His explanation is also a bit wrong above, he said Rukh is not a spirit but the one that describes the spirit, the truth is that Rukh is the origin of the spirit and the one who depicts the spirit is Magic whose source is magoi (magoi from Rukh too)

And I don't understand why it's related to the concept of Magi

First of all, Solomon's concept of Magi is where there are 3 selected people (Ugo/Solomon's choice) whom Rukh loves, and Ugo makes the same concept in the new world, but this concept doesn't apply in Dark Continent (according to Primeval Dragon's explanation), that's why Judar can't use Magi abilities there (but Judar is still Magi)

"Magi" is just the addition of Magician who has special authority

And why is the Magi system the same as selling books on the internet?

The Magi system doesn't exist in the Dark Continent because Solomon/Ugo only made the Magi system in Alma Torran (except Dark Continent) & New World
 
And also do you have to look at the word "concept" to say it's a concept? it's a taboo subject dude. that concept = abstraction/idea that underlies something
 
Star_King_Veldanava said:
Definition of the concept itself an idea / abstraction about something

Rukh itself is abstract, it can't actually be seen, only the chosen one can see Rukh. Even this is not a literal Rukh but a manifestation of Rukh (endless stream of birds). And Rukh is a fundamental aspect that is supported by spirit, and Magi cosmology (that's why the world is forced back to Rukh, everything automatically turns into nothingness), Rukh is also destiny. Plus, if reality is destroyed, Rukh is still there, this could be CM1

His explanation is also a bit wrong above, he said Rukh is not a spirit but the one that describes the spirit, the truth is that Rukh is the origin of the spirit and the one who depicts the spirit is Magic whose source is magoi (magoi from Rukh too).
Click to expand...
In summary,
Only those chosen can see Rukh
For those who can see it it is like an endless stream of birds
Fundamental aspect of reality absolutely independent from the reality it governs
Reality won't exists without Rukh
Forcely returning the world to Rukh returns the world to nothingness

As for the spirit stuff. Well yes Rukh does describe the spirit but I don't know if it is the origin of the spirit. The series has clearly shown the difference between Rukh and the spirit. Aladdin spirit was taken to the Sacred palace by his Rukh. Alibaba spirit was also disconnected from his body and Rukh when he was hit by Life magic. Life Magic is stated to disconnect the spirit from the body. The spirit without Rukh is a phantom(something that seems to exists but doesn't really exists). Not that this matters but I just want to point it out.

As for the points above, I will wait for DT to see if they do qualify.
 
Lormac_CC said:
As for the spirit stuff. Well yes Rukh does describe the spirit but I don't know if it is the origin of the spirit. The series has clearly shown the difference between Rukh and the spirit. Aladdin spirit was taken to the Sacred palace by his Rukh. Alibaba spirit was also disconnected from his body and Rukh when he was hit by Life magic. Life Magic is stated to disconnect the spirit from the body. The spirit without Rukh is a phantom(something that seems to exists but doesn't really exists). Not that this matters but I just want to point it out.

As for the points above, I will wait for DT to see if they do qualify.
Click to expand...
Regarding spirit & Rukh, Rukh does come from spirit, but Rukh ≠ Spirit

Isn't there an explanation already?

Rukh is the house of the soul / the beginning and end of life, the spirit is created from Rukh, from this spirit there is also a thing called individuality

Every creature, if they die, they will return completely to Rukh (pure existence)

If you want to take the example of Aladdin, yes, the spirit of a Magi when they die doesn't disappear, because there is a Magi system where if a Magi dies, they will be reincarnated again.

This "reincarnation" part is no different from Rukh's cycle in Great Flow, but in this case of Magi reincarnation, they are reincarnated with their identities still intact (their individuality still exists)
 
Lormac_CC said:
No need to close the thread, Magi has concept type 1 due to Rukh. So this is more of a downgrade. I will edit it. I will also propose some other concept which can qualify for concept manipulation type 2 or 3
Click to expand...
So which pages need to be edited (and unlocked) exactly, and in what manner?
 
You kind of explained it badly in the OP but yeah from my knowledge of Magi, Rukh is indeed a type 1 CM although no conceptual shenanigans actually happened (no concept was directly created or manipulated through Rukh in the entire series) but well I guess it shouldn’t even be in the profiles if they don’t have feat of manipulation of concepts so I can see your doubts Lormacc. But you can try editing the OP to explain Rukh better
 
Pain_to12 said:
You kind of explained it badly in the OP but yeah from my knowledge of Magi, Rukh is indeed a type 1 CM although no conceptual shenanigans actually happened (no concept was directly created or manipulated through Rukh in the entire series) but well I guess it shouldn’t even be in the profiles if they don’t have feat of manipulation of concepts so I can see your doubts Lormacc. But you can try editing the OP to explain Rukh better
Click to expand...
It's natural for Lormac to say that because Gods' Rukh Manipulation ability in Magi has not been shown directly to its potential

New Real Feats are used for abilities:

Creation (create Universe & living creature from Rukh)
Rewriting Rukh
Fate Manipulation
Plot Manipulation
HDM via swap technique
AE1 (Gods is a collection of Rukhs)
etcc...
Click to expand...

^ but all of the above is just a subset of Rukh's manipulation, according to the explanation at the beginning of the Alma Toram arc, the true essence of Gods abilities was "manipulating" Rukh, because they intervened with Rukh so this at least got a CM1 type alteration

After all, there are also fictions that get CM based on a statement even though the real feats are a little bit Magi. As long as the statement "manipulating Rukh" is reliable, it doesn't matter, moreover the statement comes from Aladdin who has knowledge from Wisdom Solomon
 
Creation (create Universe & living creature from Rukh)
Rewriting Rukh
Fate Manipulation
Plot Manipulation
HDM via swap technique
AE1 (Gods is a collection of Rukhs)
etcc...

None is conceptual manipulation. Rukh is likely responsible for existence and everything that exists but I doubt that will make it conceptual in nature
 
Lormac_CC said:
None is conceptual manipulation. Rukh is likely responsible for existence and everything that exists but I doubt that will make it conceptual in nature
Click to expand...
I have already answered it in paragraph 1, because the manipulation of Rukh from the gods is still not fully shown its potential, only a few.

I've also explained why the gods still have to have CM1, whether you read it or not.
 
Can somebody write a good explanation with the arguments and evidence that DontTalk needs to evaluate please?
 
Star_King_Veldanava said:
It's natural for Lormac to say that because Gods' Rukh Manipulation ability in Magi has not been shown directly to its potential

New Real Feats are used for abilities:



^ but all of the above is just a subset of Rukh's manipulation, according to the explanation at the beginning of the Alma Toram arc, the true essence of Gods abilities was "manipulating" Rukh, because they intervened with Rukh so this at least got a CM1 type alteration

After all, there are also fictions that get CM based on a statement even though the real feats are a little bit Magi. As long as the statement "manipulating Rukh" is reliable, it doesn't matter, moreover the statement comes from Aladdin who has knowledge from Wisdom Solomon
Click to expand...
actually none of the feats here fits for CM1,
lore wise yes Rukh will naturally be a type 1 concept, what i am saying is there was no active feat of CM1 in the series
 
yes, there is a lack of explanation about the manipulation of cm 1. but don't forget the explanation about rukh this one in "magi" series. in this explanation it is said to manipulate the rukh as a whole or the whole world must have power equal to il ilah. and as we know this il ilah is one of the many gods. and as we also know power il ilah < ugo < sinbad =< david, and the gods follow them.

and for chars that have the power to manipulate Rukh as a whole or who are in the whole world, return to explanation form @Star_King_Veldanava and me above which refers to the concept of type 1
 
Ashshidqy said:
yes, there is a lack of explanation about the manipulation of cm 1. but don't forget the explanation about rukh this one in "magi" series. in this explanation it is said to manipulate the rukh as a whole or the whole world must have power equal to il ilah. and as we know this il ilah is one of the many gods. and as we also know power il ilah < ugo < sinbad =< david, and the gods follow them.

and for chars that have the power to manipulate Rukh as a whole or who are in the whole world, return to explanation form @Star_King_Veldanava and me above which refers to the concept of type 1
Click to expand...
Nothing above correlates with CM1
 
Ashshidqy said:
why? this includes everything related to Rukh, not like just fate or causality but they can manipulate rukh as a whole where rukh if taken as a whole refers to the concept of type 1 as described above
Click to expand...
I only said the scan you posted and explanation you gave is just not it tbh
 
Pain_to12 said:
I only said the scan you posted and explanation you gave is just not it tbh
Click to expand...
just not it for what? for cm1? with these feats it should be said that they manipulated the concept-based rukh. because rukh is said to be the concept when rukh covers the whole or that which exists throughout the world as described earlier. not like the feats of manipulating fate or manipulation of causality which is shown directly. but by saying those who can manipulate rukh as a whole it can be said that they can manipulate rukh on all bases like it's fate, causality, law, plot, even the concept.
 
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