Magi Addition

[deonment]

Ah, but therein lies the problem. If Rukh were a Type 2 concept, rocks would cease to be- they would be reliant on it.

because Rukh as a whole is not gone, the rest of the Rukh still exists, if Rukh were to cease to be as a whole everything would end, that is one of the main reasons why the medium is so dangerous, 1)because Il Ilah and 2) It sucks and absorbs the Rukh out of everything it touches

 

[Lormac_CC]

Okay, let me lay this out. Let's say you have a default god-figure, creator of everything, blah blah. This god-figure does not inherently get Conceptual Manipulation for the pure and simple reason that he made the cosmos. The main issue I have with Rukh is that none of your scans actually mention it doing what concepts do- that is to say, defining the "shape" of the thing. If I destroyed the rukh of, say, a rock- would rocks still look the same? All rocks? Each rock has their own rukh, though, right? So this clearly isn't a platonic concept- that's not how those work, to my understanding.

Also, I have reason to question the legitimacy of higher dimensions, too, but that's a can of worms I'd rather not deal with.

It has been stated in the series, for single phenomenal (which has been described as being infinite), rukh does every single one of them.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Can you link that? Speaking to Lormac btw, I don't mean offense Deon but your bit wouldn't really qualify for CM. Lormac's may provide proper context for the ability, though, and if it does it should be linked on the page.

 

[Lormac_CC]

[

Ah, but therein lies the problem. If Rukh were a Type 2 concept, rocks would cease to be- they would be reliant on it.

So yeah I don't think these are concepts.

Yea it cease of exist, becomes like a void

 

[Lormac_CC]

Can you link that? Speaking to Lormac btw, I don't mean offense Deon but your bit wouldn't really qualify for CM. Lormac's may provide proper context for the ability, though, and if it does it should be linked on the page.

K let me get it

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm not talking about that though. I need the scan that says destroying the Rukh of one rock = causes all rocks to cease to exist (or something to that effect, rock is just an example).

 

[Lormac_CC]

I'm not talking about that though. I need the scan that says destroying the Rukh of one rock = causes all rocks to cease to exist (or something to that effect, rock is just an example).

Rukh can't be destroyed in the series, it only gets taken and flows on. So I can't get a scan showing destroying rukh of one rock = destruction of others

 

[Lormac_CC]

Can you link that? Speaking to Lormac btw, I don't mean offense Deon but your bit wouldn't really qualify for CM. Lormac's may provide proper context for the ability, though, and if it does it should be linked on the page.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for helping out so much Mr. Bambu.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I don't believe that what Lormac has linked proves CM suitably, either. Rukh causing natural phenomena can be a number of things, but really it comes off as Rukh being vaguely elemental in nature.

 

[Lormac_CC]

I don't believe that what Lormac has linked proves CM suitably, either. Rukh causing natural phenomena can be a number of things, but really it comes off as Rukh being vaguely elemental in nature.

Causing Natural phenomenal elemental in nature, How is causing phenomenal like life and Death elemental, How is being completely independent from reality elemental in nature, how is what shapes and governs reality elemental.

 

[Lormac_CC]

Rukh has the characteristics of both CM3 and CM2

 

[Lormac_CC]

Rukh being vaguely elemental in nature.

I don't see how removing elementals off reality changes it reality back to nothingness

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Causing Natural phenomenal elemental in nature, How is causing phenomenal like life and Death elemental, How is being completely independent from reality elemental in nature, how is what shapes and governs reality elemental.

I absolutely know verses where life and death are equivalent to elements but that's beside the point

and verses where the elements are indeed independent of reality- this one can even be said for D&D

Rukh has the characteristics of both CM3 and CM2

I'm not actually certain this is the case. Type 3 requires explicit confirmation that destroying all of the item would destroy the concept- we know this to not be the case, as things can be brought back from their Rukh. Type 2, on the other hand, requires that, quoting our CM page, destroying the concept would erase all of the instances of that concept, ******* with the concept in any way causes that to affect all of the concept.

If we must force this to be a Concept, I think it fits more fairly in Type 3 than 2- at that point we would be forced to assume that these concepts are of the individuals rather than universal. Someone could manipulate the concept of "Steven" but not the concept of "Man", essentially.

 

[Lormac_CC]

If we must force this to be a Concept, I think it fits more fairly in Type 3 than 2- at that point we would be forced to assume that these concepts are of the individuals rather than universal. Someone could manipulate the concept of "Steven" but not the concept of "Man", essentially.

Well personally for me it fits more with CM2, It meets the requirements upper part of the CM page type 2 perfectly, now for the destruction of rukh, rukh has never been destroyed so I can't really get a scan of rukh getting destroyed and affecting things. The only time it was altered was when Sinbad used alter the fate and mind of everything. Yes it affected everything that participated in it

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I mean. In the sense that they are transcendent of reality, sure. But I've seen no evidence of them "shaping" reality so much as being the origin of things in reality and being present within each thing. Really I've seen nothing to indicate this.

 

[Lormac_CC]

I mean. In the sense that they are transcendent of reality, sure. But I've seen no evidence of them "shaping" reality so much as being the origin of things in reality and being present within each thing. Really I've seen nothing to indicate this.

Wow, I am sure there are scans above that showed those this things, how ruhk is everywhere and in everything in reality, and how removal of rukh is returning reality to nothingness

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Wow, I am sure there are scans above that showed those this things, how ruhk is everywhere and in everything in reality, and how removal of rukh is returning reality to nothingness

You're taking some leaps here.

What I said: Rukh has no evidence of shaping everything wherein changing the Rukh changes the thing

What you heard: Rukh has no evidence of being everywhere, in everyone and everything, and nuking the Rukh destroys the person

I'm not arguing Rukh isn't in everything. You've sufficiently proven that, Rukh forms the spirit that is inside of literally everything, and likely was responsible for the creation of everything. However this alone has been agreed multiple times throughout VS Battles history to not be enough for Conceptual Manipulation- creation on its own does not grant that, even on a universal scale, even when done otherwise in a void.

 

[deonment]

What I said: Rukh has no evidence of shaping everything wherein changing the Rukh changes the thing

oh, this is your issue, then there is actually some proof for this, When Solomon changed the system of Rukh from Il Ilah's Black Rukh to his own White Ruhk, fate itself literally changed and from what I remember of that area of the manga Solomon changed the rules of the world too, with Ugo using the new white Ruhk to make entirely new laws and systems for the new world, such as the Magi system

 

[Mr. Bambu]

that's not quite what I'm looking for though, we've already established that Rukh manipulates fate, which doesn't quite require conceptual manipulation to do

 

[Lormac_CC]

that's not quite what I'm looking for though, we've already established that Rukh manipulates fate, which doesn't quite require conceptual manipulation to do

The only other alteration of rukh I can think off was during the ending where it was altered making that the mountains seas and the sea became the sky

 

[Lormac_CC]

What you heard: Rukh has no evidence of being everywhere, in everyone and everything, and nuking the Rukh destroys the person

, My bad

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Mr. Bambu. What do you think should be done here?

 

[Lormac_CC]

Ok, I have done what I can do, I have been able to show that everything came from rukh, but I haven't been able to proof the alteration of rukh due to how the show was concerned on the Fate aspect of rukh, but we do know that rukh affects reality quite similarly to how it affects Fate, I don't know if this can help my agurment