Lucifer (Supernatural) vs Yukari Yakumo (Touhou)

[FateAlbane]

@Andy Just because a Youkai is based on a certain idea - as they're usually molded around a certain youkai/legend in Japanese lore - in most cases that doesn't mean they're outright abstract/spirit/concepts just because of that. Most characters in Touhou can very well be killed if their enemies have enough power to do that. There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever suggesting that killing them physically would ammount to nothing. Even Remilia that is a vampire can be properly killed if her opponent gets around her immortality or, if you want to pull the Big Guns, the ones that ARE actually that hard to put down would be Yuyuko, Kaguya or Mokou. Dude, the way you're implying things here would make it seem that every character in Touhou has the Hourai Elixir.

 

[Andykhang]

^The Hourai can't be killed by anything in-verse though. While the Youkai is easily more harm in the mental and faith than the physical, and even strong physical attack that lack meaning wouldn't be able to harm them (that's why I said just throwing physical harm as them won't work, you gotta do it like you mean it )

Edit: If I make people think like that though, I apologize.

 

[Andykhang]

@Cal: And because she have the perfect tool to counter and attack such in the first place. But yeah, though it's more like her mind being trained rather than her wisdom from using her ability.

 

[FateAlbane]

@Andy They're quite hard to put down - not impossible, though (in-verse, they can not be killed, but incapacitation is still a thing). That second part works pretty much the same as Itachi's statement that "no one without a mangekyou sharingan can defeat him".

 

[Andykhang]

^What second part though?

 

[FateAlbane]

And even strong physical attack that lack meaning wouldn't be able to harm them = Itachi saying no one without a mangekyou sharingan can defeat him.

Anyways, that's all from me. I'll just keep an eye on the thread to clear the confusion on Yukari if need be. Like I said, my vote remains the same as before for all the rounds.

 

[Andykhang]

It's true though. The meaning of... "meaning" is still unclear though: Guess if someone just accidentally shot a Youkai, or a natural disaster hitting them without malice, then they wouldn't be damaged?

It's like Nocepo Effect on Youkai

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

What tool does she have to counter a mind screw? And how is her mind trained? I'm not really doubting the last one. I'm just curious.

 

[Andykhang]

Boundary, the Swiss Army knife of ability of course (Don't know what happen against godlike being though). And wouldn't you have your mind trained if you face reality shattering, mind bending, insanity inducing truth everytime you open your eyes and sees the thing that lurked in all gap?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

No. That provides no mind training. Otherwise, someone like Goku would've a mind master from facing beings that kill your friends and family every Tuesday, along with making friends with beings that could destroy your entire reality when they get mildly annoyed. And she wouldn't be able to use her boundary abilities if she's mentally shut down, made into a mindslave, or turned into a vegetable.

 

[Andykhang]

I think you would grow mentally stronger in general when facing these beyond-even-the-word harsh truths of life though (Not to mention there gotta be an episode when Goku resisted being mind control somewhere). And it would help when she's facing illusion, since there's a saying "Facts is more stranger than fiction". Having to aware and control precisely every single boundary you meet would be a mind-destroying task as well... The fact that she have mind manipulation would help too, so she would have a hard time getting all of the thing you said above.

Edit: And facing Lovecraftian cosmic horror is different from what you said, IMO.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Alright. Then how about all those Avengers who fought people like SHuman Gorath, who's an actual Lovecraftian Horror. Or Chaos King, or Galactus. Basically, you're sort of saying that someone like Dipper Pines would be able to resist Professor X's mental assault from facing Bill Cipher on multiple occasions, who is above all the people I just named, along with anyone Yukari has dealt with or Yukari herself.

Also, Goku never resisted mind control ever.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Wow, look away for a day and nothing happens. Look away for a few more and suddenly so many messages.

Anyway gonna clear up a few things.

One, Yukari is definitely above the leagues of regular witches on Supernatural. The Pagan Gods there are pathethic, probably due to lack of faith, and shouldn't be compared to her either.

Secondly, it's doubtful that Lucifer was taught everything God knew or else things would be much more different. Basically, unless we see him creating a new universe or something, we shouldn't compare God's feats with him. And I'm trying to recall but the only time Lucifer ever forced mental pain onto someone is when he possessed Sam, who he needed permission to enter.

Thirdly, Yukari has no defense against God tier memory manipulation so please Andy, stop. I'm a fan of Yukari but even that's too much. The only mental resistance she have is against Reisen and she can't compare to those godly level tier characters. Although I'm assuming you're using Saikou's thread on the Regenerationn part. I think youkais have high level regen so are you referring to that?

Fourth, technically with prep time Yukari can just pick up Holy Oil and Archangel Blades, but even those aren't enough to be just used. That's why she's given prep time to try and make something out of that.

Fifth, Honestly? Yukari sound smarter than Lucifer because well... Lucifer took things seriously and was tricked by Sam and Dean before. Or well defeated that way. Meanwhile Yukari never went all out or used her mind to the fullest. Also if God relaly did taught Lucifer everything well, he should have no trouble against Sam and Dean.

Sixth, speed isn't really an issue if you have time manipulation right? Cough Gabriel being taught by Lucifer.

Lastly, getting off topic, focus on the Yukari vs Lucifer topic now.

Anyway verdict check

R1

Lucifer (Dpool570, KillitiwthC4)

Tie (FateAlbane - For tiebreaker will be placed on Yukari)

Yukari (Andykhang)

R2

Lucifer (KillitiwthC4)

Tie

Yukari (Dpool570, FateAlbane, Andykhang, TheRealCalHoward)

R3

Lucifer (KillitiwthC4)

Tie (FateAlbane - Bonus points for Hell pun)

Yukari (Dpool570, Andykhang)

Not sure where to put Cal's vote and everyone else.

 

[Andykhang]

^Yeah, agree on the God tier one. No evidence yet

 

[FateAlbane]

Also if God relaly did taught Lucifer everything well, he should have no trouble against Sam and Dean.

No ammount of prep time could help him against the Plot Armor (Godly-Godly) that Sam and Dean possess. *laughs, then gets shot*

EDIT: Not implying that Lucifer knows everything like God or anything, I just couldn't resist the opportunity for this joke.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Round 2 goes to Yukari. That's for sure.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

@Andy Aye, otherwise... Well I don't think God would teach the archangels everything in the first place.

@Fate It's so strong, I bet they can go against 1A enemies depending on the story after a short arc of one of them dying (or worse), then getting pulled back, and then a dramatic fistfight.

@RealCal Updated, thoughts on R1 and R3 or undecisive for now?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Indecisive on round 1, but I'm leaning towards Lucifer. Vice versa for round 3

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

R1

Lucifer (Dpool570, KillitiwthC4)

Tie (FateAlbane, leaning on Yukari. The real cal howard, leaning on Lucifer)

Yukari (Andykhang)

R2

Lucifer (KillitiwthC4)

Tie

Yukari (Dpool570, FateAlbane, Andykhang, The real cal howard)

R3

Lucifer (KillitiwthC4)

Tie (FateAlbane - Bonus points for Hell pun, The real cal howard, leaning on Yukari)

Yukari (Dpool570, Andykhang)

Updated. If I messed up or missed a vote just tell me

 

[AWildAPSona]

S1 - Draw

S2 - Draw

S3 - Yukari

 

[Andykhang]

^Reason?

 

[AWildAPSona]

it doesnt sound like he has any feats which is pretty sad because thats usually one of the problems when you argue about yukari fighting people

its either inconclusive there isnt enough data to determine this but if anyone were to win it would probably be yukari just becuase she has more to show

I dont know anything about lucifers verse but your saying he is weak to certain things and has been both outsmarted and defeated before? it sounds like he just has immortality with rather weak offense going by his page tbh

he is also much much much slower because yukari will be around FTL especially with gaps

she can speed troll/sneak up on reimu who is FTL so

 

[Huesito88]

I am going for lucifer round 1 and 2 for reasons above and 3 tie for reasons above

 

[KillitwithC4]

it doesnt sound like he has any feats which is pretty sad because thats usually one of the problems when you argue about yukari fighting people

its either inconclusive there isnt enough data to determine this but if anyone were to win it would probably be yukari just becuase she has more to show

I dont know anything about lucifers verse but your saying he is weak to certain things and has been both outsmarted and defeated before? it sounds like he just has immortality with rather weak offense going by his page tbh

he is also much much much slower because yukari will be around FTL especially with gaps

she can speed troll/sneak up on reimu who is FTL so

He's far stronger than you think. There's also a lot of feats shown to lesser beings in supernatural.

 

[Andykhang]

@Cal: I was sleepy yesterday, so I didn't take notice of it. But did you think I was talking about being able to levitate thing or enter someone mind instead of just general resistance to mind screw. Not to said she can't do what I said above, but what I was saying is that she would have her mind harden and jade because it have been screwed so much by the Lovecraftian horror, thus gaining resistence against certain type of mind screw (Like illusion or anything to do with knowledge. Like sensory overload or persuasion of mind), and would look more like Deadpool's mind than anything.

 

[Andykhang]

bump

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

@Wild

To tell you the truth, if he taught Gabriel everything Lucy should be able to make pocket dimensions, make certain aspects of fiction come to life, manipulate time, and smite energy beings out of existence.

 

[Andykhang]

^Everything that Yukari could have already done, basically.

 

[Andykhang]

bump

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Might as well bring my thoughts to this. Honestly siding with Lucifer on Round 1 and Round 3, or maybe a tie on that, and Yukari definitely has Round 2 in the bag. Nothing's really stopping Lucifer from time travelling except for.... well Yukari's own time travel thingy theory. Either way votes aaaare:

R1

Lucifer (Dpool570, KillitiwthC4, Huesito88)

Tie (FateAlbane, leaning on Yukari. The real cal howard, leaning on Lucifer, AWildAPSona)

Yukari (Andykhang)

R2

Lucifer (KillitiwthC4, Huesito88)

Tie (AWildAPSona)

Yukari (Dpool570, FateAlbane, Andykhang, The real cal howard)

R3

Lucifer (KillitiwthC4)

Tie (FateAlbane - Bonus points for Hell pun, The real cal howard, leaning on Yukari, Huesito88)

Yukari (Dpool570, Andykhang, AWildAPSona)

Updated. If I messed up or missed a vote just tell me


And honestly I'm just surprised at people thinking Lucifer has a better chance in scenario 2 than scenario 3 when Yukari is in more of an advantage for the second and vice versa.

 

[JBennett]

I put my vote to yukari for the first two rounds simply because Lucifer has no knowledge of what yukari can do and without that knowledge I do not think he would be able to react in time when when she uses her gaps/bounderies. considering the fact that their states are generally equal with the exception of lifing and striking strength and range it all goes down to their powers and I give that to Yukari simply through the versitile aplication to her BM if what powerlisting.com is correct.

In round three I can see it going either way but it all depends on how much knowledge Lucifer has on Yukari's BM. if he knows all aplications of BM then he has a high chance of winning. personally I will put my vote on Yukari simply through the amount of applications she has with BM, although I won't be upset if Lucifer win the third one since I can see him winning it.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

So wait are you voting for a tie and leaning on Yukari on the last round then?

 

[JBennett]

can't say to be honest, depends on how much information Lucifer has, if he has a good amount of information then I'll say its a tie and Yukari if he doesn't. so for simplicity sake I'll say a tie.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Alright so a tie leaning on Yukari then I'm assuming. But then it's arguable that Lucifer could counter Yukari's knowledge with omniscience but then again Yukari is skilled enough to basically get around with Boundary Manipulation. Although if I put my vote too, it would be Lucifer on R1, Yukari on R2, and Lucifer or Tie on R3

R1

Lucifer (Dpool570, KillitiwthC4, Huesito88) 3 - 4

Tie (FateAlbane, leaning on Yukari. The real cal howard, leaning on Lucifer, AWildAPSona) 3 - 1

Yukari (Andykhang, JBennett) 2 - 3


R2

Lucifer (KillitiwthC4, Huesito88) 2

Tie (AWildAPSona) 1

Yukari (Dpool570, FateAlbane, Andykhang, The real cal howard, JBennett) 5

R3

Lucifer (KillitiwthC4) 1

Tie (FateAlbane - Bonus points for Hell pun, The real cal howard, leaning on Yukari, Huesito88, JBennett, leaning on Yukari) 3 - 1

Yukari (Dpool570, Andykhang, AWildAPSona) 3 - 5

From the looks of it Lucifer takes Round 1, Yukari takes Round 2, and for Round 3 it's either a tie or Yukari. So…. Yukari's victory then? Although if I include mine it seems like it's a true tie.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

So, shall I update the profiles or does anyone else want to comment?

 

[FateAlbane]

I'd be ok with it, but don't we need like, 7 votes for one side or another before adding stuff?

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Guess we'll wait a bit more then. Bump

 

[Akira1298]

R1: Lucy

R2: Yukari

R3: Yukari

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Form and Emptyness, for chance? That would also eliminate his soul too,

Moot point, Lucifer has Soul Manipulation AND no sells soul manipulation on him to boot, because he lacks one to begin with. He predates the concept of souls in Supernatural, as he is older than the Universe and was created before Souls were even made in his verse. Also, Immortality type 1, 3 and most important, 4, anyone?
His smite is not a projectile or something, it aims straight at you, it doesn't follow a trajectory, he snaps his fingers, you explode. That's how it works. Don't downplay the man, because he's strong af. And let's not even begin on the fact that he has Reality Warping and that's enough of a counter to deal with Boundary Manip.

With that being said to avoid downplaying...

1. Either inconclusive or Yukari. Not that Lucifer will tag her - speed stomp, indeed - but putting him down for real will be a b*tch to do. BFR won't even be a thing with their ranges and teleportation.

2. Yukari with preparation should have the advantage, as she might have devised tons of plans to deal with him in that time. And with her superior speed, she'll most likely get all the chances she needs to make them work.

3. Inconclusive I'd say. They both are EXTREMELY intelligent and cunning, and both have some nasty powers on their arsenal. Lucifer with prep might even find a way to deal with their difference in speed. So really can't say. It would be one... Wait for it... One Hell of a Battle, but it should probably end in stalemate (or they realize that both are interesting af and decide that rather than killing one another, they could be thinking on how to mess up their respective verses together).

Lucifer for these reasons among others.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Even with prep time on second scenarios? Gotcha.

R1

Lucifer (Dpool570, KillitiwthC4, Huesito88, Akira1298, Mr Bambu) 5 - 6

Tie (FateAlbane, leaning on Yukari. The real cal howard, leaning on Lucifer, AWildAPSona) 3 - 1

Yukari (Andykhang, JBennett) 2 - 3


R2

Lucifer (KillitiwthC4, Huesito88, Mr Bambu) 3

Tie (AWildAPSona) 1

Yukari (Dpool570, FateAlbane, Andykhang, The real cal howard, JBennett, Akira1298) 6

R3

Lucifer (KillitiwthC4, Mr Bambu) 2

Tie (FateAlbane - Bonus points for Hell pun, The real cal howard, leaning on Yukari, Huesito88, JBennett, leaning on Yukari) 3 - 1

Yukari (Dpool570, Andykhang, AWildAPSona, Akira1298) 4 - 6


If it's 3 points for win and 1 for tie.

L - Y (16 - 21 vs 7 - 12) (10 vs 19) (7 - 9 vs 13 - 21)

1-2 more votes now