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Lucifer (Shin Megami tensei 4) ???
- Thread starter Szutjo
- Start date
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I actually also think that's true. The second point, anyway.
That the Lucifer in SMT 4 isn't the real Lucifer, and is just being used to keep the war going.
That the Lucifer in SMT 4 isn't the real Lucifer, and is just being used to keep the war going.
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@Jordanbairdcreaturemaster97
Indeed, perhaps YHWH weakened Lucifer before SMT4 happened so he had to go hiding. in the mean time, Satan disguise as Lucy to keep the world order in existence.
Indeed, perhaps YHWH weakened Lucifer before SMT4 happened so he had to go hiding. in the mean time, Satan disguise as Lucy to keep the world order in existence.
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Bump.
Seriously, this is something that needs to be addressed.
Seriously, this is something that needs to be addressed.
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Bump
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There is nothing in the 4 Apocalypse said that this is Fake lucifer. There is a reason why Satan has 2 key in his profile, regular and Apocalypse. The series just head to a new direction and decided that Lucifer and Merkabah are 2 pieces of Satan. You can say SMT4's Satan is stronger than the SMT 2 Satan
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@MagiSinbad but that will be like saying they are from a different multiverse as we are speaking off.
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Giving my two-cents here:
It should not be assumed that Lucifer in previous games is the same as Apocalypse Lucifer. In fact, it would be safe to assume that all three versions of Lucifer that we've seen (four, if we're counting Strange Journey's version of him) are different manifestations.
Nocturne Lucifer contrasts heavily with his Shin Megami Tensei II counterpart. SMTII Lucifer more than happily allowed the continuation of the cycle of death and rebirth and ultimately resigned himself to the idea that the war between Law and Chaos would continue forever, whereas Nocturne Lucifer sought to end the cycle of death and rebirth in Amala and wanted to end the eternal war between Law and Chaos.
Lucifer in Shin Megami Tensei IV seems to have a similar mindset to that of SMTII Lucifer as well, but with the added influence of YHVH preventing him from going against him (unlike in SMTII). You COULD argue that such is the case for SMTII Lucifer as well, given the fact that the YHVH faced in II is just a singular manifestation. But then, that would bring into question why YHVH would even show his face in SMTII. Come to that, him presenting himselves to humans in II also directly contradicts a piece of information in Apocalypse: that being the fact that YHVH supposedly never appeared before humans.
Nocturne Lucifer displays a lack of interest in the plight of humans, disregarding humanity entirely in favor of going to fight God. Shin Megami Tensei II and IV's Lucifer's actively meddle in the affairs of humans, with the latter never even attempting to go to war with God.
It should not be assumed that Lucifer in previous games is the same as Apocalypse Lucifer. In fact, it would be safe to assume that all three versions of Lucifer that we've seen (four, if we're counting Strange Journey's version of him) are different manifestations.
Nocturne Lucifer contrasts heavily with his Shin Megami Tensei II counterpart. SMTII Lucifer more than happily allowed the continuation of the cycle of death and rebirth and ultimately resigned himself to the idea that the war between Law and Chaos would continue forever, whereas Nocturne Lucifer sought to end the cycle of death and rebirth in Amala and wanted to end the eternal war between Law and Chaos.
Lucifer in Shin Megami Tensei IV seems to have a similar mindset to that of SMTII Lucifer as well, but with the added influence of YHVH preventing him from going against him (unlike in SMTII). You COULD argue that such is the case for SMTII Lucifer as well, given the fact that the YHVH faced in II is just a singular manifestation. But then, that would bring into question why YHVH would even show his face in SMTII. Come to that, him presenting himselves to humans in II also directly contradicts a piece of information in Apocalypse: that being the fact that YHVH supposedly never appeared before humans.
Nocturne Lucifer displays a lack of interest in the plight of humans, disregarding humanity entirely in favor of going to fight God. Shin Megami Tensei II and IV's Lucifer's actively meddle in the affairs of humans, with the latter never even attempting to go to war with God.
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This is just the case of multiple writers over decades of videogames.
Also, Lucifer not caring for humans or to fight god is incorrect, since he is in direct opposition to YHVH in every game he's in, and in Nocturne is actively twisting strings to built a perfect soldier to lead his armies in the final battle.
The games never say or remotely imply that the IV Lucifer is another being, quite the contrary. The way the games themselves, and the artbook talks about make it very clear that it is meant to be The Lucifer, and not a fake. Lucifer being a fake would go against the fact that IV is a traditional Law vs Neutral vs Chaos storyline (Lucifer being a fake pawn of the law faction would undermine that), and Apocalypse is about the main characters subverting the Law vs Neutral vs Chaos war and finding a new path.
Yes, Apocalypse does treat Lucifer is a pawn of YHVH, but its more like the game treats every single God and Demon as unwitting pawns of his ultimate goal, which is to keep the conflict of Law and Chaos rolling for eternity across reality, so that he'll always remain on top.
Also Lucifer was never established to be stronger than Satan. SMT II makes the opposite true with the Kuzuryu,
Also, Lucifer not caring for humans or to fight god is incorrect, since he is in direct opposition to YHVH in every game he's in, and in Nocturne is actively twisting strings to built a perfect soldier to lead his armies in the final battle.
The games never say or remotely imply that the IV Lucifer is another being, quite the contrary. The way the games themselves, and the artbook talks about make it very clear that it is meant to be The Lucifer, and not a fake. Lucifer being a fake would go against the fact that IV is a traditional Law vs Neutral vs Chaos storyline (Lucifer being a fake pawn of the law faction would undermine that), and Apocalypse is about the main characters subverting the Law vs Neutral vs Chaos war and finding a new path.
Yes, Apocalypse does treat Lucifer is a pawn of YHVH, but its more like the game treats every single God and Demon as unwitting pawns of his ultimate goal, which is to keep the conflict of Law and Chaos rolling for eternity across reality, so that he'll always remain on top.
Also Lucifer was never established to be stronger than Satan. SMT II makes the opposite true with the Kuzuryu,
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I should point out that I'm personally not stating that IV Lucifer is somehow a "fake" version of Lucifer.
I think a good way of explaining the situation with Lucifer would be to look at what happened to Dagda, or even what's implied will happen to YHVH in the Bonds route. While the entity in question is the same throughout the series, they aren't necessarily the same in nature. So while Lucifer in each game is the same, he's not the same, if you get what I mean.
And yeah, Lucifer in SMTII is at best equal to Satan, more than likely a little weaker.
I think a good way of explaining the situation with Lucifer would be to look at what happened to Dagda, or even what's implied will happen to YHVH in the Bonds route. While the entity in question is the same throughout the series, they aren't necessarily the same in nature. So while Lucifer in each game is the same, he's not the same, if you get what I mean.
And yeah, Lucifer in SMTII is at best equal to Satan, more than likely a little weaker.
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This is what i thought All the Lucifers that has been seen in the series are but aspects, pieces of Lucifer and his True form has never been revealed. The Lucifer in 4 is actually Satan's aspect, created to maintain the balance of YHWH's world, the balance of Chaos vs Law. When the Divine power come to interfere with this, Satan had no choice but to put his full attention to Krishna. Thus, triggered the truce.
If that sounds wrong to you, i got another interpret. In 4, Atlus decided to retcon the entire thing, the saem as how Marvel did to their franchise before.
If that sounds wrong to you, i got another interpret. In 4, Atlus decided to retcon the entire thing, the saem as how Marvel did to their franchise before.
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While it is irrational to believe lucifer was a fake, or just a small aspect, the game also has it as statan being stronger than lucifer narratively speaking. Heck, the story makes it clear that lucifer and merkabah are part of satan himself. Call it a retcon, thats just how it is. Also remember that there are two keys for satan in his profile. His 2-A self, and his Apocalypse version that is astronomically way more powerful.
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It's possible both Satan and Lucifer are formed from the same 'source', and how they manifest depends heavily on Observation and (possibly) the setting. In that sense, Lucifer can act as either a counterpart to Satan or as an aspect of him.
YHVH is also handled differently in Apocalypse. In Shin Megami Tensei II, he presents himself to Aleph and Hiroko. Whether or not he would go on to present himself to those onboard the Megiddo Ark in the Law route is unknown, but he did show himself to humans in some capacity (even if it was a singular manifesation/head of his, it still counts as YHVH showing himself). In Apocalypse, it's stated that he never apppeared before humanity. This means he either stopped doing so after the events of SMTII or (and I believe this to be more likely) the guys behind Apocalypse's plot wanted to do their own take on the lore.
This goes back to my point of Lucifer being the same being, but also not being the exact same in essence. It would be appropriate, given the nature of demons as Shin Megami Tensei depicts them.
YHVH is also handled differently in Apocalypse. In Shin Megami Tensei II, he presents himself to Aleph and Hiroko. Whether or not he would go on to present himself to those onboard the Megiddo Ark in the Law route is unknown, but he did show himself to humans in some capacity (even if it was a singular manifesation/head of his, it still counts as YHVH showing himself). In Apocalypse, it's stated that he never apppeared before humanity. This means he either stopped doing so after the events of SMTII or (and I believe this to be more likely) the guys behind Apocalypse's plot wanted to do their own take on the lore.
This goes back to my point of Lucifer being the same being, but also not being the exact same in essence. It would be appropriate, given the nature of demons as Shin Megami Tensei depicts them.
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Jaakuace43 said:
That actually is probably the best way of looking at it. Oh, ambiguity you double-edged sword.
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The headcanon in this thread is surreal.
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Matthew Schroeder said:
Yeah. Unfortunately the game doesn't give us much to work off of. It's a hugely ambiguous situation.
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I meant as far as why Satan and Lucifer went from being two clearly separate beings and counterparts to Lucifer and Merkabah being Satan's two halves. As well as all the continuity errors about YHVH and Lucy's huge shift in personality between games.
I do think now that assuming it's the same Lucifer is probably the best option, however.
I do think now that assuming it's the same Lucifer is probably the best option, however.
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I guess its a retcon, i mean, theres no other clear option as far as i know.
Yeah.
Ugh. I don't like retcons.
Yeah.
Ugh. I don't like retcons.
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I don't like retcon too. This is blasphemy toward lil' Lucy.
Where is my "Humans, born of the God's madness, belong to me. I have no love for them. But neither will I abandon them. That is freedom." Louisa Ferre?
Well, side track that much is enough. I would like to keep this thread opened for 1 more month if in 1 month no relevant finding is presented we can close it. For now let's allow ideas to be discussed.
Where is my "Humans, born of the God's madness, belong to me. I have no love for them. But neither will I abandon them. That is freedom." Louisa Ferre?
Well, side track that much is enough. I would like to keep this thread opened for 1 more month if in 1 month no relevant finding is presented we can close it. For now let's allow ideas to be discussed.
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It's a shame this thread is pretty solidly dead by now because I'd like to revisit this point after the forum move. But alas.
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Indeed.
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We should get a mod to close this. Also @Creaturemaster971 as a guy knowledgable on SMT IV Apocalypse i suggest you ask me about this on my message wall
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